M-Rex
member
Granted. But, now you have an educated view, rather than a baseless opinion. Take a few more. Broaden your horizons. Try different agencies. Contrary to public opinion, we really don't eat our young.
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Is there any way citizens and LE can come together and make it work like it is suppos
- Thread starter kbr80
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Granted. But, now you have an educated view, rather than a baseless opinion. Take a few more. Broaden your horizons. Try different agencies. Contrary to public opinion, we really don't eat our young.
In short: Don't want to get hassled by the law enforcement 'you' hired? Then don't break the law 'you' enacted.
Its not a simple as you stated above.
Sometimes people get, as you say, hassled by LE for nothing. Walking down the street, as in a story that was posted here about an attorney that it happened to. It does not take much to get a visit, hassled as you say, by an LEO. That happens when so many laws that make almost everything criminal or a traffic incident, so many laws that the citizens and LEO's alike cant remember them all. I am sure the few people that have been on the business end of a no knock do not agree with your plain and simple answer, especially since the po po in those instances got the wrong house. Or how about the instances in Colorado, sloppy police work gets at least 2 people arrested, day in jail, criminal record, all because a LEO did not do the job he was hired to do.
Citizens have to realize that LEO's do a damn good job, and the majority of LEO's are great, honest people. LEO's have to realize that they are citizens, civilians, that happen to wear a badge. LEO's demand respect, well they deserve it, so do citizens. An LEO who makes a mistake, does not do his job can hurt someones life in a very bad way.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=156513&highlight=colorado
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4897809/detail.html?subid=22100484&qs=1;bp=t
Bad LEO's, incidents with bad LEO's make every LEO look bad. Sorry if that angers you, but its the way it is. Perception, its a bitch sometimes.
Treatment. Act like you are part of the community you serve/work in. Not like a soldier in a crusade holding yourself higher than the citizens.
EghtySx
Member
To those of you who believe law enforcement officers are held to a different standard than regular civilians, I say, absolutely right. Law enforcement officers carry greater responsibilities, every day, than ordinary citizens.
More responsibility than doctors, nurses, EMTs, a hundred other professions?
These 'employers', as you say, hired me to enforce the laws that they themselves voted to have enacted. They should not gripe when they are made to live within those laws as, ultimately, it is their own fault for enacting them.
The gripe is that you dont have to. Why arent you held to the same laws you voted for as are we? When is the last time you got a ticket and paid it? When is the last time someone knocked on your door (or didn't knock) and demanded an explanation for what you are doing on your own property? Would you give another LEO a ticket for speeding or just let him pass out of "professional courtesy"? If you did would he pay it? How about anyone in your family? When they get a ticket do they pay it or do you take care of it for them?
In short: Don't want to get hassled by the law enforcement 'you' hired? Then don't break the law 'you' enacted.
It really has nothing to do with that. If someone is breaking the law, by all means, do your job. The problem is with the attitude. You are no better than anyone else. Dont act like it. Even in this thread I can smell the arrogance in LEO's responses.
If a 'joe citizen' gets a speeding ticket. All it is, is a point on his/her driving record. If an officer gets one, it becomes part of his/her personnel file. Departmental discipline may result, and the officer's livlihood may be impacted.
Livelyhood? Do you mean money? How about the cost of the ticket? The time and trouble. The increase in insurance rates. One minute driving down the road, next minute, hundreds of dollars in fines and higher insurance costs. Ya, having something in a file must be terrible for ya. Scuse me if I dont shed a tear. Besides, as I said, you people dont get and pay tickets in the good ole boy system in which you work.
Again, it boils down to atitude. "Who cares if someone gets a ticket, its just THEIR money. Now, if it affects OUR money ..." And you just cant help it can ya? You honestly believe you are better than non LEOs. Ask again why this makes people sick.
M-Rex
member
To those of you who believe law enforcement officers are held to a different standard than regular civilians, I say, absolutely right. Law enforcement officers carry greater responsibilities, every day, than ordinary citizens.
More responsibility than doctors, nurses, EMTs, a hundred other professions?
Most definitely. No other profession is granted the authority to take a life should the need arise. Not even the military can do that (in peace time), barring of course actual battle.
These 'employers', as you say, hired me to enforce the laws that they themselves voted to have enacted. They should not gripe when they are made to live within those laws as, ultimately, it is their own fault for enacting them.
The gripe is that you dont have to. Why arent you held to the same laws you voted for as are we? When is the last time you got a ticket and paid it? When is the last time someone knocked on your door (or didn't knock) and demanded an explanation for what you are doing on your own property? Would you give another LEO a ticket for speeding or just let him pass out of "professional courtesy"? If you did would he pay it? How about anyone in your family? When they get a ticket do they pay it or do you take care of it for them?
To answer your questions. I am held to the same laws. Quit painting yourself as a victim of some sort of imagined oppression.
1. I was ticketed, and paid the ticket, when I was stopped for speeding in Douglas County, Nevada because I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing. Also, by the CHP, when I had my uniform shirt draped across my seat when I was on my way home at about 3:00 pm after working 16 hours - again, not paying attention to what I was doing. I earned my lumps. I took them. No biggie.
2. Never have had an officer knock on my door and ask what I was doing on my own property. Come to think of it, I've never heard of that happening in the county I worked in.
3. I would grant an officer one 'professional courtesy'. So what? If I caught the officer doing the same thing again, then he's putting me in an uncomfortable position as he/she should know better. Ticket time. He/she would pay it. Don't gripe. You ever do anything for a friend/professional counterpart for free (computer work, perhaps)? Don't act so high-and-mighty.
4. If anyone in my family got a ticket, they were on their own. Not my problem. I never 'fixed' a ticket. I don't really even know what 'fixing' a ticket is. There were penalties if this happened in my department, so I'm not really sure what this mythical ticket fixing is that you're referring to.
In short: Don't want to get hassled by the law enforcement 'you' hired? Then don't break the law 'you' enacted.
It really has nothing to do with that. If someone is breaking the law, by all means, do your job. The problem is with the attitude. You are no better than anyone else. Dont act like it. Even in this thread I can smell the arrogance in LEO's responses.
Were I to judge your 'attitude' by your posts, I'd reason to guess that you have some issues that need to be dealt with regarding your view of your self worth. There's a lot of 'victimization' in the tone of your posts. If you inferred from my post that I think I am better than you, you are mistaken. I'm just a working joe, just like everyone else.
If a 'joe citizen' gets a speeding ticket. All it is, is a point on his/her driving record. If an officer gets one, it becomes part of his/her personnel file. Departmental discipline may result, and the officer's livlihood may be impacted.
Livelyhood? Do you mean money? How about the cost of the ticket? The time and trouble. The increase in insurance rates. One minute driving down the road, next minute, hundreds of dollars in fines and higher insurance costs. Ya, having something in a file must be terrible for ya. Scuse me if I dont shed a tear. Besides, as I said, you people dont get and pay tickets in the good ole boy system in which you work.
Again, it boils down to atitude. "Who cares if someone gets a ticket, its just THEIR money. Now, if it affects OUR money ..." And you just cant help it can ya? You honestly believe you are better than non LEOs. Ask again why this makes people sick.
Interesting broad generalization. You have a lot of misplaced anger. All the things you mentioned happen when an LEO gets a ticket. There is no magic wand that makes the ticket go away, contrary to your worldview. Added to that is the posibility of departmental discipline.
I find it very interesting that you use the phrase 'you people'. I'm curious. Who are the 'you people' that you speak of? That's a rather predjudiced phrase to use. I find it rather disturbing that you are filled with so much bigoted hate. Perhaps it is people who think the way you do who are perpetuating the gulf between citizen/civilian and law enforcement? Really, law enforcement officers aren't the devils you think they are.
ctdonath
Member
My two cents (haven't read the 4 pages, just venting):
Those who spend their time focused on finding & punishing criminals lose sight of the fact that most people are decent and have good reason to do a wide range of actions.
On the premise of "getting tough on crime", lawmakers have created an incomprehensible web of transgressions which unfortunately cover a significant amount of reasonable behavior. As such, police are responsible for enforcing those laws upon unsuspecting decent people who are doing reasonable things without malice.
I've come to fear police precisely because they can wreck my life over some little thing which makes perfect sense to most of us. I have to choose between obeying the speed limit and getting rear-ended by normal traffic going >20MPH over. I have to choose between carrying defensive tools and being forbidden from CCW in places where <gasp> someone I don't know might be drinking. I have to choose between keeping legal paperwork straight and risking some paperwork being out-of-sync before it all gets straight.
I don't blame the cops. With legislators making laws which fundamentally presume people are criminals, and not knowing the real impact of their poorly-worded prohibitions, cops are left with having to assume that anything questionable is wrong, and the person in question must be caged until a judge figures out what's going on.
The solution: reduce the laws to punishing outcomes of actions, eliminating laws which are "preventative". No harm, no foul. Focus police energy on those who have actually done wrong/harm, rather than raising tensions over harmless behaviors which "might" end in harm. That way, upstanding citizens can trust that their reasonable actions will not be punished.
Restore the equality of "upstanding citizen" and "law-abiding citizen". Laws are becoming obnoxious enough that nobody can really be "law-abiding" without being helpless and annoying to others. Reasonable acts are at risk of grave punishment; legalize reasonableness and morality.
Those who spend their time focused on finding & punishing criminals lose sight of the fact that most people are decent and have good reason to do a wide range of actions.
On the premise of "getting tough on crime", lawmakers have created an incomprehensible web of transgressions which unfortunately cover a significant amount of reasonable behavior. As such, police are responsible for enforcing those laws upon unsuspecting decent people who are doing reasonable things without malice.
I've come to fear police precisely because they can wreck my life over some little thing which makes perfect sense to most of us. I have to choose between obeying the speed limit and getting rear-ended by normal traffic going >20MPH over. I have to choose between carrying defensive tools and being forbidden from CCW in places where <gasp> someone I don't know might be drinking. I have to choose between keeping legal paperwork straight and risking some paperwork being out-of-sync before it all gets straight.
I don't blame the cops. With legislators making laws which fundamentally presume people are criminals, and not knowing the real impact of their poorly-worded prohibitions, cops are left with having to assume that anything questionable is wrong, and the person in question must be caged until a judge figures out what's going on.
The solution: reduce the laws to punishing outcomes of actions, eliminating laws which are "preventative". No harm, no foul. Focus police energy on those who have actually done wrong/harm, rather than raising tensions over harmless behaviors which "might" end in harm. That way, upstanding citizens can trust that their reasonable actions will not be punished.
Restore the equality of "upstanding citizen" and "law-abiding citizen". Laws are becoming obnoxious enough that nobody can really be "law-abiding" without being helpless and annoying to others. Reasonable acts are at risk of grave punishment; legalize reasonableness and morality.
ctdonath
Member
Tell that to my friend who has made many tickets go away by consulting with his LEO buddy.There is no magic wand that makes the ticket go away, contrary to your worldview.
ctdonath
Member
Nobody wants to maintain the adversarial relationship. There's a disparity in the power equation here; don't be surprised at those upset at being on the losing side of it.What I see is that there seem to be a lot of THR members who want to maintain an adversarial relationship with law enforcement.
If a cop catches me speeding on the road or CCWing in a bar, he can easily make my life miserable.
If I catch a cop doing the same thing, I cannot easily make his life miserable.
Understand why one side gets angry and not the other?
Just saying "play nice" doesn't make the aggrivation go away.
The Real Hawkeye
member
Are you kidding me? Neither cops nor their immediate family get speeding tickets. They might get pulled over, but then they just show the mini badge with their father's/brother's/son's badge number on it, and it becomes an instant "warning." I thought everyone knew this. I've seen this happen. This is part of the problem.How about anyone in your family? When they get a ticket do they pay it or do you take care of it for them?
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