Repeal the machinegun ban

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cookekdjr said:
Ummmmmmmmm.....machine guns?
Look, I love the second amendment as much as the next guy, but you have to consider the consequences of a green light on machine guns.

When you look at the "success" of the WOD, do you think that the bad guys can't already get all the machine guns that they want?

It's called FREEDOM, and yes, abuse of freedom can result in tragic consequences, but you punish the abuser, and don't make silly rules assigning morality to inanimate objects.
 
fourays2 said:
David, we just want to be able to register new machine guns under the NFA. they are highly regulated requiring fingerprints and a background check simlar to that for a CCW. no one is asking for un-restricted access.
Fourays2,
thanks for the clarification.
-D
 
Sistema1927 said:
When you look at the "success" of the WOD, do you think that the bad guys can't already get all the machine guns that they want?

It's called FREEDOM, and yes, abuse of freedom can result in tragic consequences, but you punish the abuser, and don't make silly rules assigning morality to inanimate objects.
Sure its freedom. Unristricted freedom is known as anarchy. Which leads to a backlash where either:
1. Organized crime takes control; or
2. A totalitarian regime takes control (like the Taliban).

RE: freedom, to quote a member of our Supreme Court:
"The Constitution is not a suicide pact".
-David
 
dustind said:
Just saying the phrase "repeal the ban" makes people skeptical. Adding the word machine gun does not help due to people's mental image of the subject. I would use words like class III firearm, or section/title such and such. It could force people to think about the subject a bit more instead of going with their first emotional reaction.

I understand what you are saying but the problem is still in the hands of the public. Show most any soccer mom or average Joe blow, including most hunters, a Title II or "so called class three" device and they will still freak out. Out of misunderstanding or just plain ingnorence Joe blow public will tell you that they don't want these type weapons on the streets. I have asked that question here in Oklahoma, huge pro gun state, but that is the mentality that most people have.:(I don't think that the "brain wash" can ever be turned around.
 
I don't think that the "brain wash" can ever be turned around.
It can, but it has been there for generations. There is almost no one alive who can remember pre-1934 life. And almost none of them would have had the money to spend on any guns at that time.
 
Crosshair said:
Since the NFA is a tax, just put it in the income tax bills tht get passed every year. Those bills look like a New York Phone book.


Works for me.

Why not?

All tax laws are germaine in a tax bill right?

Anyone?
 
Don't put the words MG, Ban, or Repeal, in the Name of the Bill,

Nationa Firearms Owners Freedom of Commerce Act of 2005 ...Since the second Ammendment to the US Constitution places limits on the Federal government's ability to ban production of firearms ,or discourage lawful commerce in firearms, the NFA of 1934 is remanded to State level authority:)...Meaning if there is no state ban on the NFA weapons(sorry Cali), only a need to comply with federal law(Texas),NFA weapons would become legal overnight, sans the obligatory, yet unable to be paid tax on MG....The,"Tax", as it has been called is no longer serving a revenue purpose, as far as MG are concerned, and even for the open categories of NFA weapons or items, the ,"Tax" is cost prohibitive to the point that it's true nature is a FINE...This is Unconstitutiional to fine a person for wishing to exercise a Constitutional Right. Therefore the NFA of 1934(in it's ammended form) is returned to State Authority...;) ...

PS- I agree hide it in a tax bill, preferably one the size of the bible:evil: )
 
OK, cookekdjr, I will ask you the question:

"Why shouldn't I, a law abiding citizen of the United States of America, be allowed to purchase a brand new suppressed H&K MP5?"

And, how does my possession of said weapon lead to "anarchy", or the growth of organized crime, or any other imagined evil?

Anarchy is "freedom" without punishment for abuse. The freedom I am talking about trusts the citizen until he abuses it, and doesn't make up arbitrary rules that demonize inanimate objects.
 
Too Many Choices!? said:
PS- I agree hide it in a tax bill, preferably one the size of the bible:evil: )
That's the best (only?) way to do this. I think it should be:
  1. Hidden deeply in a tax bill. It should not be in a bill called "Restoring our right to machineguns" or anything like that. There should be no mention at all of MGs. It should only refer to 922(o)
  2. The way to do it is incrementally. Right now there is some feeling that the NFA and MGs are "holy ground" and no one will tread on them. Maybe the first thing to do is to break that "holiness" in some benign way and then move from there.
  3. NFA fees should probably be increased to give the BATF some reason to SUPPORT this. Just to take an example, let's say the fee for new registration were put at $2,000. Yes it's a lot of money. But this would make current owners feel not quite so bad about having "invested" $2k on an Uzi, and it would give the BATF a big new revenue stream. If fees were $2k, I bet there would be about 10,000 registrations per year which means $20mil in budget increase for the BATF. That's significant.
 
cookekdjr said:
Sure its freedom. Unristricted freedom is known as anarchy. Which leads to a backlash where either:
1. Organized crime takes control; or
2. A totalitarian regime takes control (like the Taliban).

Yes freeom = anarchy. Now why dont you move to a nice safe place that doesnt have that problem and we will just deal with being able to take care of ourselves, ok?
 
cookekdjr said:
Ummmmmmmmm.....machine guns?
Look, I love the second amendment as much as the next guy, but you have to consider the consequences of a green light on machine guns.
Here's what would happen:

Jennings/Bryco/Hi-point/anybody else would start making cheap machine-guns that any punk with $300 of crack-sale profits could buy (Not to mention the FLOOD of full auto AK's that would come over here). Even if most thugs went the usual route (back alley/trailer park/projects sale), the availability of mass-produced fully automatic weapons would mean the base-line firepower on the street would increase dramatically. What that translates into is an army of drug thugs running around our streets shooting at each other with significant firepower, with the usual hit-to-miss ratio, which means....Lots of murdered innocent bystanders. I'm talking kids on playgrounds, mothers driving mini-vans, etc.
I believe this is called restricting rights based on expediency?

I can't get over how, if you replace "machinegun" with, say, "assault rifle", you get VPC drivel.
 
The NFA is a Tax, that is why it is in Title 26, “Internal revenue code”. The ban on new machines guns is in Title 18, “crimes and criminal procedure”. To say that 18 § 922(o) doesn't allow you to pay the NFA tax is incorrect. What it does is criminalize private machine gun ownership, with an exception for machine guns registered before the act was passed. So if, for example, the BATFE allowed you to pay an NFA Tax on a new machine gun, they couldn't prosecute you on NFA tax evasion, but it would still be illegal, due to 18 § 922(o), because it wouldn't have been in the registry before that bill was passed. Since any newly registered machine gun would be a violation of 18 § 922(o), the BATFE is nice enough to not allow you pay the NFA tax on one. Which is, I suppose, preferable to them taking your money and or raiding your home or place of business on the suspicion that you are making a machine gun.

It is a minor, but I feel important detail, that 18 § 922(o) doesn't even attempt to hide its encroachment on the RKBA, in a punitive taxing scheme, like the NFA does. This makes it even more clear that it violates the second amendment.

Because it isn't part of the revenue code, you couldn't bury an amendment repealing it, in a spending bill. Although I agree that in the current political climate, it's going to have to be attached to something if it is even going to have a chance at passing. Right now the number of people that support repealing this is small, and our representatives don't have much to gain politically by doing so, and they know it. So aside from a blessed few with principles, this isn't going to get a lot of votes by itself. I don't think a provision like this could be snuck into a big bill without anyone noticing, I'm fairly sure our representatives have staffers that do actually reads these laws in their entirety before they are voted on. I'm all for trying though.

In the short term I think, we will only be rid of it legislatively in the reverse situation that it was passed, attached as a poison pill amendment to something the opposition really wants. I'm not sure what the anti-gun crowd would want bad enough that they would vote to let us have machine guns again, but I'm going to guess it would be intolerable. As for the argument that the anti-gun crowd doesn't have a good position against it, due to all the hooplah that was made about the AWB sunset, I must ask. When was the last time not having a good argument got in the way of the anti-gun agenda?

In the long term, the best way to repeal this and other similar laws is going to be to convince enough people of our point of view, so that when they hear the anti-gun types talk, they won't be swayed.

cookekdjr said:
Ummmmmmmmm.....machine guns?
Look, I love the second amendment as much as the next guy, but you have to consider the consequences of a green light on machine guns.
I can't help but wonder who this next guy is? He doesn't seem to love what the second amendment actually says. Even in U.S. v. Miller the SCOTUS acknowledged that if it had been shown that Miller's shotgun had been useful as a weapon in the militia he would have been protected by the second amendment. Given the number of full-auto weapons in the military, I don't think that even this point would be hard to make for machineguns.
cookekdjr said:
Lots of murdered innocent bystanders. I'm talking kids on playgrounds, mothers driving mini-vans, etc.
Similar claims were made about “assault weapons”, but the statistics show that criminals only use them a small fraction of the time. The only thing currently stopping anyone from converting a semi-auto into a full-auto right now is their respect for the law. A trait which murderers seldom have an abundance of.

fourays2 said:
no one is asking for un-restricted access.
I Am. Just not as a first step.
 
Yes cookekdjr, Blood will run in the streets!!!!!

Not! Admit it, you are scared of MG!!...Not the people that own them...It's okay to have fear, just not of an inanimate object...

Especially when I see you say nothing of a SHORT BARRELED SHOTGUNs, which is essentially a small cannon(slugs) , or a large smg(buck shot), and many times more dangerous under 50m/yrd. I am so sure that the millions of theses weapons owned legally at this moment, are just waiting to just rip children and mothers apart:rolleyes:...

Your are either ignorant on the subject, or hoplophobic where MG are concerned. I would hope it is simple ingnorance which can be overcome; the latter(hoplophobia), not so much. Have a nice day...:)

Too Many Choices!?(and sheeple's fear shouldn't limit those of gun owners:cuss: )
 
Machine guns scare me, BUT only because of all the ammo I would need to buy.. I mean have a hole in for a wallet, and an injuried back from carrying said ammo... god.... now where can I get >=1 MG?
 
VorpalSpork,

I would agree with you on the surface, but no where in the text of 922o, does it say that it ourtight BANS production of new MG... It does say that it will be unlawful to possess one after said date without approval of the United States Government...Meaning Stewart was sunk, as he was a prohibited person, already...A person that is a non-felon and non-prohibited person on the 4473, can build any weapon(Firearm, as defined by the ammended NFA) but a MG. That is immoral ,UnConstitutional, and prior restraint of a Fundamental Right:barf:...

PS-We got the ban from, the AG, not really from Congress. If the law was(and still is) vague, it should have been interpreted in favor of freedom, not totalitarianism, which all Fed Law is; since the NATION must obey it,unlike the Cali ban, you can't move from it and stay America...
 
Zundfolge said:
You fail to take into account all the NFA weapons that are NOT in the registry. I'd love to see what the compliance rates are with the NFA. Most gun registration schemes have a somewhat low rate of compliance, so I bet that if the NFA went away that you'd find more then 150,000 "NFA" weapons out there in the market.


That is an interesting statement. I bought a book called the Machine Gun Bible in the mid 80's and in that book there was a statement released by the U.S. Government stating for every legal machine gun, there were approx. 10 that were illegal. That statement was from the Govt's own stats and that was said in the mid 80's.:uhoh:
 
saltydog said:
That is an interesting statement. I bought a book called the Machine Gun Bible in the mid 80's and in that book there was a statement released by the U.S. Government stating for every legal machine gun, there were approx. 10 that were illegal. That statement was from the Govt's own stats and that was said in the mid 80's.:uhoh:

Of course, that could be the ATF just overestimating the number so they get a larger enforcement budget.
 
saltydog said:
for every legal machine gun, there were approx. 10 that were illegal.
Good. Because if this is true, it means there are real patriots out there. :)

Nothing warms my heart more than knowing there are people who understand the difference between illegal and unlawful (i.e. it may be illegal to own an unregistered machine gun, bit it certainly isn't unlawful).
 
CleverNickname said:
Of course, that could be the ATF just overestimating the number so they get a larger enforcement budget.

Your might be right but I don't think agencies need to justify budgets anymore as Congress is ready to throw money at anything it can with no appearent reason for it.:confused: Prohibition does nothing but create an "underground" in anything that it touches. I remember all the AR15 drop in auto sears for sale at gunshows in the late 70's, pile's and pile's of them. Govt stats , in the same book, say they have no idea how many were manufactured and sold "legally" at that time. That may be part of their stats.:what:
 
cookekdjr said:
Sure its freedom. Unristricted freedom is known as anarchy.

Common misconception foisted upon the American people by those who are afraid of freedom.

Remember, freedom carries with it the responsibility (remember that word?) to respect another's rights.

It is not anarchy by any means.
 
I realize 922(o) is not part of the tax code.

All we need is someone who will bring this up and offer it as an amendment.
 
A BILL
To amend chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, to regulate and tax the interstate commerce in certain firearms

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Federal Firearm Control Act of 2005’

SEC. 2. CONTROLS ON CERTAIN FIREARMS REINSTATED

(a) Section 922 (o) Title 18 US Code is hereby repealed in it’s entirety upon enactment of this act into law.'.
 
We got Machinegun Sam now (Thanks Brady!) .

Maybe we can bring a challenge of 922 (o) to SCOTUS?
 
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