“Be real easy to rob you folks…”
- Thread starter sm
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johnnymenudo
Member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
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As I said in my first post, Steve is well liked here and is held in high esteem. It seems like that is good enough for most of you to back up his actions. I suspect however that if I was in a similar situation and posted the events, that I would be slammed for being an over-reactor and a vigilante. I was not there, so I am in no way able to see things through Steve's eyes, but is saying "it would be easy to rob you people" a statement that shows intent?
JM
JM
Mongo the Mutterer
Member
Not out of context, but in the following context from Steve's post:
Okay, he "heard and felt" the car pull up out front. Then one of the "perps" walked in. To a sheeple, no biggie, to a sheepdog (Steve and the other two) .. warning. It could be someone in a hurry, could be someone who is just an a**hole, etc., but it caught the sheepdogs' interest. ALL THREE OF THEM.
Bingo! Was the guy waiting for his pard? Was the guy covering? He was covering...and then the sheepdogs bared their teeth and announced their presence. If the two were up to good deeds, why would they even react at Steve's announcement? Why not a dumb stare?
No one was threatened, no weapon was brandished, an announcement was made and the two wolves decided to leave...
Steve -- You did a good thing, and reacted quite well. Your action probably prevented the situation from escalating...
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johnnymenudo said:
I kind of agree with this statment, I figured that this would be the first reaction here. Gun drawn when no weapon was displayed by perp. I often read here that if there is not a gun to YOUR head keep cool. Here no weapon displayed, and no gun to anybodies head. I was expecting a firm yet respectful rebuke of actions
All in all I am glad there are fellas like sm, and I hope I fall into the camp that I would draw/use weapon to defend helpless.
How is this situations different for my own growth of situational wisdom?
johnnymenudo
Member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
- Messages
- 98
Mongo the Mutterer said:
Ok this is my point. Who decided that these guys were perps?? When did Steve and the other gentleman become the sheepdogs? Can we trust their instincts over anyone else's? The only way I can go come to grips with Steve's response is by assigning him some kind of 6th sense or ability to read a situation instinctively. Objectively I simply cannot see where drawing your weapon fit the situation.
JM
atk
Member
johnnymenudo,
First, please check your PMs. I believe the whole concern of a 6th sense may be eased, with that.
Second, in response to,
I'd like to rephrase that question. Most people know when something really bad is going on, even if they can't quite describe why it seems bad. Especially with people who are aware of their surroundings, and more apt to notice bad things sooner. I think it's more appropriate to ask, "can we trust thier instincts at least as well as everyone else's?"
First, please check your PMs. I believe the whole concern of a 6th sense may be eased, with that.
Second, in response to,
I'd like to rephrase that question. Most people know when something really bad is going on, even if they can't quite describe why it seems bad. Especially with people who are aware of their surroundings, and more apt to notice bad things sooner. I think it's more appropriate to ask, "can we trust thier instincts at least as well as everyone else's?"
Powderman
Member
johnnymenudo said:
I carefully read sm's post; first as a board member, then as a cop.
Here, it was a case where (to use the cop's point of view) a sequence of events, when considered with the totality of the circumstances, would cause a reasonable person to believe that they were in danger.
Translated: Through observation of these guy's actions, sm noted that someone was quite possibly about to commit a violent crime against the establishment.
He took action; action which was entirely within the scope of the law because he, as a reasonable person, harbored a sincere and articulable belief that he--and others around him--were in imminent danger of death or serious badily harm. Thus, no criminal charges, and an attaboy all around.
Translated: He pulled their punk card. They had no trump. Done deal.
Bob F.
Member
This has been going on at least a couple days and I'm not going back to re-read. I'll go with my first impression: 2 punks walk in and run their mouths threateningly. Not threatening, you say? Would have gotten my attention!
Steve says he 6' behind a 5' display, drew to low-ready. Only an EBR held w/ butt over shoulder as witha vest would have been visible. Beside, I think he said he crouched. Never said he had a gun or would shoot. Just said there wouldn't be any trouble in an authoratative voice.
Additionally, "body language" is an accepted means of communication, even by the courts.
Had you handled a like situation as Steve did, I'd not have dis'd you. Had you drawn and jammed yor 8&3/8 mod 29 in the perps face screaming "make my day, Punk", I'd probably say you had over-reacted.
Again. Good job Steve.
Stay safe, All!
Bob
PS: By the way Lee, the cashier did see the weapon.
Steve says he 6' behind a 5' display, drew to low-ready. Only an EBR held w/ butt over shoulder as witha vest would have been visible. Beside, I think he said he crouched. Never said he had a gun or would shoot. Just said there wouldn't be any trouble in an authoratative voice.
Additionally, "body language" is an accepted means of communication, even by the courts.
Had you handled a like situation as Steve did, I'd not have dis'd you. Had you drawn and jammed yor 8&3/8 mod 29 in the perps face screaming "make my day, Punk", I'd probably say you had over-reacted.
Again. Good job Steve.
Stay safe, All!
Bob
PS: By the way Lee, the cashier did see the weapon.
Carlos
Member
Steve,
Great job. I'm very interested in knowing where this happened, please.
Great job. I'm very interested in knowing where this happened, please.
S_O_Laban
Member
I am just an average guy with very little formal training. A couple of things stood out to me.
Excellent job on situational awareness.
Excellent job on using available cover. Things could have looked very different if Steve found himself exposed and hampered (line of fire, ect) by those around him.
I have often heard " never draw your weapon unless you need to shoot." Quite frankly, I don't agree with this line of thinking. As evidenced above, getting the drop on preps if possible is a desirable thing. If Steve flashed his gun where all could see.... that's a horse of different color.
I hadn't considered the possibility of the perps using mirrors in the store to their advantage. Something to think about.
It takes old fashioned courage to go ahead and speak up and take charge of the situation. Many would have said nothing until things got worse. What Steve said probably took whatever game plan the perps had and left them feeling a lot less optomistic about their prospects. It was..... probably the last thing they expected.
When it's over.... it's not over. Situations like these have ramifications the least of which is your own mental health and well being.
I'm glad Steve and the others are okay.
May God bless.
Excellent job on situational awareness.
Excellent job on using available cover. Things could have looked very different if Steve found himself exposed and hampered (line of fire, ect) by those around him.
I have often heard " never draw your weapon unless you need to shoot." Quite frankly, I don't agree with this line of thinking. As evidenced above, getting the drop on preps if possible is a desirable thing. If Steve flashed his gun where all could see.... that's a horse of different color.
I hadn't considered the possibility of the perps using mirrors in the store to their advantage. Something to think about.
It takes old fashioned courage to go ahead and speak up and take charge of the situation. Many would have said nothing until things got worse. What Steve said probably took whatever game plan the perps had and left them feeling a lot less optomistic about their prospects. It was..... probably the last thing they expected.
When it's over.... it's not over. Situations like these have ramifications the least of which is your own mental health and well being.
I'm glad Steve and the others are okay.
May God bless.Working Man
Member
Jeff White said:
Amen!
Good job Steve!
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
To think about...
"I hadn't considered the possibility of the perps using mirrors in the store to their advantage. Something to think about. "
================================
Indeed it is something to consider. Here's some more.
Not every crook/criminal/badguy is a drunken crackhead loser tweaker druggie dropout crazy stupid person. Granted a lot of them are some combination of the above (which in its own way presents an entirely new set of problems in stopping them). But you cannot ASSUME that someone setting out on a common robbery does not have a plan that has been thought out and even rehersed. If you do ASSUME stuff like that, you worsen the risks inherent in an already bad situation. Anyone remember the word play on the word ASSUME? Well, it fits. If you are going to ASSUME things, then count on things happening that will make the situation _harder_ for you to deal with and not easier. Because it is likely to go that way.
Prisons are not just confinement facilities for crooks. They are crook colleges. People in prison don't just wile away the hours pushing iron and making shanks to practice prison acupuncture with. They STUDY how to improve themselves as criminals. For hours and days and weeks and years they study.
And then they get let loose, back out into a world full of potential victims. Your world and mine.
A small percentage of them do actually better themselves as a result of their prison time, they pay their supposed debt to society and go out to try and live better.
Most do not.
Most go back out still criminals, not JUST criminals but BETTER criminals. I could talk to my wife the PhD who teaches criminology at a local university and get you the current statistics on recidivism, but I don't think that is necessary. It has ALWAYS been that most people who go to prison come out unrehabilitated, and continue following lifelong criminal careers interrupted only by prison time.
So figure on not running into someone who just embarked on their first venture across the line into lawbreaking. Oh, it happens. I know of people who were chosen as victims by rank amateur first-time criminals- but you can't count on that happening to you. If you ASSUME that criminals are stupid, you may setting yourself up for a genuinely nasty surprise.
Criminals know what those curved mirrors are. They know the mirrors are there to catch THEM and people like them shoplifting. They know that the glass doors of upright coolers reflect images from the right angles, and the insides of glass doors and windows and all sorts of other surfaces too. And they know to use them. They know they need advantages on their side if they are to carry out a successful predation, just like any other predator does. They plan for ways to HAVE those advantages much of the time. And if you ASSUME they do not, you are well on your way to making yourself that creature described by the first three letters of the word ASSUME.
I know of a number of instances where LEOs and others have been shot or killed by what I call 'tailgunners' who went into a store the group planned to rob a few minutes early and made themselves inconspicuous until the deal went down. They were there specifically to ambush ANYONE who played hero or got in the way or wandered in while the robbery was happening. If you are in a place and something like that starts, you had best know what is on your six before you commence the hero bit. It may be that there is a tailgunner there with you already in his sights.
I remind folks that my friend Steve KNOWS this stuff down into his bone marrow, after a career being stalked by professional predators in a legitimate business that draws criminals like wildebeast migrations draw lions even now. It is a business I have had some peripheral involvement with myself, and I have carried guns while working security for people I know who were in that business. It makes one nervous to be stalked by professionals, if one has any imagination at all. (And the amateurs are even scarier- edit).
This event made SM very nervous for very good reasons. He was kind enough to offer some details of it here in order to share the educational aspects of the situation with us. Smart people can learn from the experiences of others without having to experience everything themselves.
It is NOT hardware details that matter in situations like this. It is SOFTWARE that counts. It is software stuff that is worth paying attention to here. SM carries a pistol he knows from long experince to be reliable. He knows from thousands of rounds sent downrange under a lot of different circumstances how far away he can hit what with it. If you carry a gun you'd better know that stuff too, as well as what to be aware of that might tip you off a fight is in the offing. If you DON'T know that stuff... well, no need to go there.
Some might recall the ongoing convoluted story of an active shooter situation in a mall recently. The most seriously wounded victim of this shooting spree actually was carrying a pistol. But he challenged the shooter verbally, even after hearing the shooter fire multiple rounds of whet he knew from the sound to be centerfire rifle fire. He did not engage the shooter, he yelled at him like an irate hall monitor- and got shot repeatedly for his trouble. There are several lessons there as well I can't go into here. But it was an example of how NOT to do some things that I hope some people who habitually carry guns will learn from the easy way.
Over and over I have seen SM type- you cannot buy skill, you cannot buy targets, you have to practice practice practice. Well, here it is again. Learn what indications telegraph trouble, be aware of your location and the things and people around you, know where emergency exits are, be prepared to act in an appropriate manner given evolving circumstances. SM accomplished all that in this case. Every good self defense instructor I know counts a fight avoided by personal preparation and proper preliminary action as a fight won.
This one was a win.
Understand I am in no position to preach (and I know there are people on this board who are qualified by training and experience to do so). I am not the arbiter of all things tactical, I am no professional gunsel. I hope in some small way to help good people understand some aspects of the odds arrayed against them and that is all. I cannot predict the odds of any given individual reading this being involved in a violent situation. I cannot schedule my own emergencies, much less yours.
But neither can you. I was never a Boy Scout but I still believe in being prepared. You should too...
lpl/nc
"I hadn't considered the possibility of the perps using mirrors in the store to their advantage. Something to think about. "
================================
Indeed it is something to consider. Here's some more.
Not every crook/criminal/badguy is a drunken crackhead loser tweaker druggie dropout crazy stupid person. Granted a lot of them are some combination of the above (which in its own way presents an entirely new set of problems in stopping them). But you cannot ASSUME that someone setting out on a common robbery does not have a plan that has been thought out and even rehersed. If you do ASSUME stuff like that, you worsen the risks inherent in an already bad situation. Anyone remember the word play on the word ASSUME? Well, it fits. If you are going to ASSUME things, then count on things happening that will make the situation _harder_ for you to deal with and not easier. Because it is likely to go that way.
Prisons are not just confinement facilities for crooks. They are crook colleges. People in prison don't just wile away the hours pushing iron and making shanks to practice prison acupuncture with. They STUDY how to improve themselves as criminals. For hours and days and weeks and years they study.
And then they get let loose, back out into a world full of potential victims. Your world and mine.
A small percentage of them do actually better themselves as a result of their prison time, they pay their supposed debt to society and go out to try and live better.
Most do not.
Most go back out still criminals, not JUST criminals but BETTER criminals. I could talk to my wife the PhD who teaches criminology at a local university and get you the current statistics on recidivism, but I don't think that is necessary. It has ALWAYS been that most people who go to prison come out unrehabilitated, and continue following lifelong criminal careers interrupted only by prison time.
So figure on not running into someone who just embarked on their first venture across the line into lawbreaking. Oh, it happens. I know of people who were chosen as victims by rank amateur first-time criminals- but you can't count on that happening to you. If you ASSUME that criminals are stupid, you may setting yourself up for a genuinely nasty surprise.
Criminals know what those curved mirrors are. They know the mirrors are there to catch THEM and people like them shoplifting. They know that the glass doors of upright coolers reflect images from the right angles, and the insides of glass doors and windows and all sorts of other surfaces too. And they know to use them. They know they need advantages on their side if they are to carry out a successful predation, just like any other predator does. They plan for ways to HAVE those advantages much of the time. And if you ASSUME they do not, you are well on your way to making yourself that creature described by the first three letters of the word ASSUME.
I know of a number of instances where LEOs and others have been shot or killed by what I call 'tailgunners' who went into a store the group planned to rob a few minutes early and made themselves inconspicuous until the deal went down. They were there specifically to ambush ANYONE who played hero or got in the way or wandered in while the robbery was happening. If you are in a place and something like that starts, you had best know what is on your six before you commence the hero bit. It may be that there is a tailgunner there with you already in his sights.
I remind folks that my friend Steve KNOWS this stuff down into his bone marrow, after a career being stalked by professional predators in a legitimate business that draws criminals like wildebeast migrations draw lions even now. It is a business I have had some peripheral involvement with myself, and I have carried guns while working security for people I know who were in that business. It makes one nervous to be stalked by professionals, if one has any imagination at all. (And the amateurs are even scarier- edit).
This event made SM very nervous for very good reasons. He was kind enough to offer some details of it here in order to share the educational aspects of the situation with us. Smart people can learn from the experiences of others without having to experience everything themselves.
It is NOT hardware details that matter in situations like this. It is SOFTWARE that counts. It is software stuff that is worth paying attention to here. SM carries a pistol he knows from long experince to be reliable. He knows from thousands of rounds sent downrange under a lot of different circumstances how far away he can hit what with it. If you carry a gun you'd better know that stuff too, as well as what to be aware of that might tip you off a fight is in the offing. If you DON'T know that stuff... well, no need to go there.
Some might recall the ongoing convoluted story of an active shooter situation in a mall recently. The most seriously wounded victim of this shooting spree actually was carrying a pistol. But he challenged the shooter verbally, even after hearing the shooter fire multiple rounds of whet he knew from the sound to be centerfire rifle fire. He did not engage the shooter, he yelled at him like an irate hall monitor- and got shot repeatedly for his trouble. There are several lessons there as well I can't go into here. But it was an example of how NOT to do some things that I hope some people who habitually carry guns will learn from the easy way.
Over and over I have seen SM type- you cannot buy skill, you cannot buy targets, you have to practice practice practice. Well, here it is again. Learn what indications telegraph trouble, be aware of your location and the things and people around you, know where emergency exits are, be prepared to act in an appropriate manner given evolving circumstances. SM accomplished all that in this case. Every good self defense instructor I know counts a fight avoided by personal preparation and proper preliminary action as a fight won.
This one was a win.
Understand I am in no position to preach (and I know there are people on this board who are qualified by training and experience to do so). I am not the arbiter of all things tactical, I am no professional gunsel. I hope in some small way to help good people understand some aspects of the odds arrayed against them and that is all. I cannot predict the odds of any given individual reading this being involved in a violent situation. I cannot schedule my own emergencies, much less yours.
But neither can you. I was never a Boy Scout but I still believe in being prepared. You should too...
lpl/nc
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P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Lee - excellent post
It helps exemplify too how, we in necessary yellow should also use ''all the tricks'' - like reflections etc.
It helps exemplify too how, we in necessary yellow should also use ''all the tricks'' - like reflections etc.
rock jock
Member
Nice job. Good example of what to do.
Mongo the Mutterer
Member
Absolutely excellent post Lee, especially about the "tail gunner". Thank you.
AStone
Member
Finally got around to reading Lee's longer post. One of the best I've read in my six months on THR. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Lee. Well done.
Nem
Nem
bogie
Member
I think he should have politely suggested that the individual make an appointment for a counselling session with a qualified service provider.
Following any acting out by the individual, he should then have arranged for necessary grief and post-traumatic stress counselling for survivors.
Dang, but I have GOT to stop watching CNN...
Following any acting out by the individual, he should then have arranged for necessary grief and post-traumatic stress counselling for survivors.
Dang, but I have GOT to stop watching CNN...
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