READ, THINK, AND REMEMBER

Does this NOT still apply?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 77.8%
  • No

    Votes: 8 22.2%

  • Total voters
    36
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mindpilot

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The Declaration of the United States of America POLL should read DOES this still Apply

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
 
I went to a public school, so I may be misinformed, but I believe the words of Independence should be tied to that declaration.

I voted no, since the "present King of Great Britain" doesn't have a "history of repeated histories and usurpations."
 
No, but the present "King of the Land" could possibly be considered in this light, according to some.


-James
 
I voted yes. The specifics are dated, King and Colonies, but the fundimental principles are still sound.
 
The Old Issue

Rudyard Kipling

"Here is nothing new nor aught unproven," say the Trumpets

"Many feet have worn it and the road is old indeed,
"It is the King--the King we schooled aforetime!"
(Trumpets in the marshes--in the eyot at Runnymede!)

"Here is neither haste, nor hate, nor anger," peal the Trumpets,
"Pardon for his penitence or pity for his fall,

"It is the King!"--inexorable Trumpets--
(Trumpets round the scaffold at the dawning by Whitehall!)

"He hath veiled the Crown and hid the Sceptre," warn the Trumpets,
"He hath changed the fashion of the lies that cloak his will.
"Hard die the Kings--ah, hard--dooms hard!" declare the Trumpets,
(Trumpets at the gang-plank where the brawling troop-decks fill!)

Ancient and Unteachable, abide--abide the Trumpets!
Once again the Trumpets, for the shuddering ground-swell brings
Clamour over ocean of the harsh, pursuing Trumpets--
Trumpets of the Vanguard that have sworn no truce with Kings!

All we have of freedom, all we use or know--
This our fathers bought for us long and long ago.

Ancient Right unnoticed as the breath we draw--
Leave to live by no man's leave, underneath the Law--

Lance and torch and tumult, steel and grey-goose wing,
Wrenched it, inch and ell and all, slowly from the King.

Till our fathers 'stablished, after bloody years,
How our King is one with us, first among his peers.

So they bought us freedom--not at little cost--
Wherefore must we watch the King, lest our gain be lost.

Over all things certain, this is sure indeed,
Suffer not the old King: for we know the breed.

Give no ear to bondsmen bidding us endure,
Whining "He is weak and far;" crying "Time shall cure."

(Time himself is witness, till the battle joins,
Deeper strikes the rottenness in the people's loins.)

Give no heed to bondsmen masking war with peace,
Suffer not the old King here or overseas.

They that beg us barter--wait his yielding mood--
Pledge the years we hold in trust--pawn our brother's blood--

Howso' great their clamour, whatso'er their claim,
Suffer not the old King under any name!

He shall mark our goings, question whence we came,
Set his guards about us, as in Freedom's name.

Here is naught unproven--here is naught to learn,
It is written what shall fall if the King return.

He shall take a tribute; toll of all our ware;
He shall change our gold for arms--arms we may not bear.

He shall break his Judges if they cross his word;
He shall rule above the Law calling on the Lord.

He shall peep and mutter; and the night shall bring
Watchers 'neath our windows, lest we mock the King--

Hate and all divisions; hosts of hurrying spies;
Money poured in secret; carrion breeding flies.

Strangers of his counsel, hirelings of his pay,
These shall deal our Justice: sell--deny--delay.

We shall drink dishonour, we shall eat abuse,
For the Land we look to--for the Tongue we use.

We shall take our station, dirt beneath his feet,
while his hired captains jeer us in the street.

Cruel in the shadow, crafty in the sun,
Far beyond his borders shall his teachings run.

Sloven, sullen, savage, secret, uncontrolled,
Laying on a new land evil of the old--

Long-forgotten bondage, dwarfing heart and brain--
All our fathers died to loose he shall bind again.

Here is naught at venture, random or untrue--
Swings the wheel full-circle, brims the cup anew.

Here is naught unproven, here is nothing hid:
Step for step and word for word--so the old Kings did!

Step by step and word by word: who is ruled may read.
Suffer not the old Kings: for we know the breed--

All the right they promise--all the wrong they bring.
Stewards of the Judgment, suffer not this King!
 
If you're going to cite the Declaration of Independence, cite the whole thing:

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


Since the Declaration was specifically aimed, addressed to, and mentions by name, the State of Great Britain, then I'd say unless we are once again a possession of the British Crown, then no, the Declaration of Independence does not still apply.

The prionciples, maybe. The Declaration, no.

LawDog
 
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
This part of the Declaration is elegant in the mathematical sense, a logical construct which is timeless.

pax
 
The principles enumerated in the Declaration of Independence apply to a people living in the colonies of a sovereign nation who have decided that that sovereign nation is no longer looking after their best interests and is even taking unfair advantage of them.

If you are asking do those principles apply to the people of the USA today then the answer is no.

If you are asking if the citizens of a sovereign nation have the right, even the duty, to throw off the bonds imposed by an oppressive government then yes. What that has to do with the DOI though eludes me.
 
pax said:
This part of the Declaration is elegant in the mathematical sense, a logical construct which is timeless.

pax

+1

pax beat me to it. That paragraph of the Declaration of Independance will always apply to any country, any government, and any group of people that cherishs freedom and liberty.
 
my choice

LawDog said:
If you're going to cite the Declaration of Independence, cite the whole thing:


I site the part I want, the part that still makes sense, the part I feel is relevant with Dictators like GWB authorizing spying on its own people for the good of its own people.
 
From one of Mindpilot's posts:
Dictators like GWB
Dictator? Tell me, sir -- have you ever actually spent any time in a country ruled by a real dictator? I think not. (By no means take this as a defense of the current President, rather, look at it as defending the proper use of words in the English language.)
 
Old Dog said:
From one of Mindpilot's posts:
Dictator? Tell me, sir -- have you ever actually spent any time in a country ruled by a real dictator? I think not. (By no means take this as a defense of the current President, rather, look at it as defending the proper use of words in the English language.)


<Personal insult removed by Art>
 
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Oldest trick in the book.

Read the Poll question:

Does this NOT still apply?

Double negative question intended to gather supporting results when the voters meant to vote the other way. In other words, by voting YES you are indicating it does NOT apply, by voting NO you are indicating it DOES apply. The results of this poll are meaningless.
 
mindpilot said:
LawDog said:
If you're going to cite the Declaration of Independence, cite the whole thing:


I site the part I want, the part that still makes sense, the part I feel is relevant with Dictators like GWB authorizing spying on its own people for the good of its own people.

as someone said before me," Dictators are not benevolent, otherwise they would not need to dictate...i forget who it was...:banghead:

as some one who has seen/heard experiences under a dictatorial regime...i liken it to a dysfunctional family...no one is happy within, yet they still manage to live their lives within that negative paradigm. :uhoh:
 
with the DOI, I think the intent is what's important, not it's literal reading. I voted yes, it does still apply, because the sentiment behind the words is what I think matters. The words are timeless, though. People will be drawing inspiration from them a thousand years from now.
 
(Art wuz here.)

Mindpilot, what has G.W. kept you from doing today that you would otherwise have enjoyed in a "free" country?

After three years on this forum I've finally been given a reason to use the ignore list.
 
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seansean said:
with the DOI, I think the intent is what's important, not it's literal reading. I voted yes, it does still apply, because the sentiment behind the words is what I think matters. .

If you voted yes in this poll, then you voted that it does NOT apply.
You see what the original poster did? Tried to turn a majority of votes that it DOES apply into DOES NOT apply by stating the question and answer with a double negative.

The poll is invalid...
 
When The Founders wrote the Golden Paragraph, God Smiled.

When the people signed the lines, pledging their lives, fortunes and sacred honor to those principles, God did backflips.

When they actually pulled it off, the entire Universe reverberated in His happy laughter, forever changed, sentient beings everywhere forever uplifted.

We are the heirs of this legacy
 
Pappy John said:
Mindpilot, what has G.W. kept you from doing today that you would otherwise have enjoyed in a "free" country?

After three years on this forum I've finally been given a reason to use the ignore list.
I take that as a compliment, it lets me know my voice is heard! :neener:
 
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DunedinDragon said:
If you voted yes in this poll, then you voted that it does NOT apply.
You see what the original poster did? Tried to turn a majority of votes that it DOES apply into DOES NOT apply by stating the question and answer with a double negative.

The poll is invalid...
actually, in red, at the top of his post, mindpilot corrected it the poll to DOES this apply...I responded correctly.
 
Mind Pilot, even though I get a visceral negative reaction to the tone and nomenclature of your comments, the mere fact that you can make such comments openly in a public forum, validates the 45 years of Naval Service I put in defending the Constitution of this Republic and her people. All the time proudly serving under whatever Commander in Chief those people elected - regardless of my personal feelings of the man serving in that capacity. At NO time did I think sobriquets like "Dictator" were appropriate to be applied to the President of the Republic. That Naval service convinced me that though we may be be far from perfect, we are far better off than most other countries or regimes in this world, and Dictatorships - I have been very familiar with several - are beyond comparison. I wish you and your's a Merry Christmas, a Happy New Year and continued Freedom in this, as you call it, Dictatorship.
 
tegemu said:
the mere fact that you can make such comments openly in a public forum, validates the 45 years of Naval Service I put in defending the Constitution of this Republic and her people.
Tegemu -

Thank you for that 45 years and all that you helped to protect. I'm glad that you can see the good in what you've done through damning (and ignorant) comments made by others.
-
 
MindPilot, it's not that mind that you cite anything of Bush's which offends you; it's the way in which you do it and the style of your commentary. It also helps when conclusions seem related to facts.

Regardless, personal insults can get threads closed. Personal insults can get posts deleted, also.

Art
 
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