New job limits CCW... how to compromise?

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Devonai

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I just accepted a job with a private investigation company. My job will be to assist in surveillance and tailing operations.

A License to Carry Firearms in Massachusetts was required, with a New Hampshire license a bonus. I happen to have both, so along with my experience I was offered the job.

The problem is that the owner of the company told me that weapons would only be carried in certain neighborhoods that had a reputation for trouble... in my area that's Dorchester, Roxbury, Mattapan, Brockton, Lynn, et cetera. Carrying a weapon at other times is not allowed.

This is a problem for me as I have chosen to carry where ever legal as a lifestyle choice. I also seek out jobs that either require a weapon OR do not directly forbid them. This helps me build a resume more conducive to my career goals while keeping my life protected.

I have been out of work for awhile so I did not object to the terms of my employment. I do not intend to carry a weapon when not authorized to do so. However, what I intend to do is a compromise to this agreement.

I intend to keep my M1 Carbine in my car, unloaded, with two 15 round magazines kept on my person. This is legal even in Massachusetts, since I have an unrestricted license.

Hopefully this will solve the ethical dilemma of carrying a weapon without "permission" from my employer while providing a reasonable option for self-defense to be proximate while out and about.

This is important to me as I do not believe my employer has the right to dictate when and where I can carry a firearm. In this case it is not an issue of liability under insurance, only his preference. If the weapon is discovered or I'm involved in an incident, I expect to be fired. This is a reasonable compromise to me as it's better to be unemployed than dead. I expect to be able to work indefinitely without either situation occuring, though. My vehicle is my own and there is no reason why the carbine (with paratrooper folding stock and concealed inside a carrying case) should ever be found.

Since the carbine would only be accessable in an extreme emergency and would not "jeopardize" my work as feared by the boss, I believe that I would be following the spirit of his rule, if not the letter. When he told me that he believed that carrying a weapon was often more of a detriment to the carrier than a benefit I realized I was dealing with a incremental elitist. I believe, on the other hand, that carrying a concealed firearm will always benefit the user and never jeopardize him, as long as that person is well versed in the law and trained in retention techniques.

What do you think? Is carrying a rifle in my car in violation of my new boss' ideals? Should I ignore his rules even if it means getting fired somewhere down the line? The chances of my car being searched are nil.
 
Interesting dilemma. Here's my thoughts:

Can your supervisor limit your ability to protect yourself? I don't believe so.

Did you sign a contract? Can you sign your rights away? I recall there being a court case where it was decided that an individual cannot sign away his or her rights. If my recollection is right, the contractual agreement to not protect yourself doesn't matter.

Why do you intend to just leave a rifle in your car? It sounds like you have a LTC-A, so why not carry on your person? You stated,

"Hopefully this will solve the ethical dilemma of carrying a weapon without "permission" from my employer while providing a reasonable option for self-defense to be proximate while out and about."

I don't believe that there is an ethical dilemma, since you can't sign your rights away, and you you have chosen to accept the obligation of protecting yourself. As for being a reasonable option for self defense, it's a big risk to assume that you'll be able to get to your car (or get out of your car), pop the trunk, and retrieve your firearm when you are confronted with a deadly situation.


One last thing: maybe I just missed it, but what is the reasoning for your boss' decision to not carry in "safe" neighborhoods?
 
There is no such thing

As a "safe" neighborhood. Some are safer than others, but crime goes where the BG"s goes and they go everywhere.
 
Actually, while usually you cannot agree to give up a right, you can agree to forego exercising a right, or to waive it. Whether it's a written contract or not, if your employer agrees to give you money for doing what he tells you to do, and he tells you not to carry a gun in some neighborhoods, then by agreeing to accept the money, you agree to the conditions that go along with the offer. 2nd amendment rights are same as any other, like when you implicitly agree not to yell "Fark" all through the neigborhood, even though you have a 1st amendment right to do so.

As for carrying in your car, keep in mind some jurisdictions consider the car an extension of your personal space, and technically a weapon doesn't have to be on your body to be "carried" or "concealed." Essentially, you're trying to convert a moral dilemma into a semantic argument, but the underlying conflict still remains and only you can decide whether you want to live with a guilty conscience or without a means to defend yourself and others.

If it were me, I'd weigh the potential consequences and keep my usual carry weapon all the time.
 
If you're willing to get fired over the possibility of your M1 coming to light, why not just carry on-body?

A gun in your car is no good. If you can run to the car, get out your gun, load it and still save your hide, you can run away. When you really NEED a gun, you need it immediately.

Look for a carry method that is concealed enough to do what you need and just don't mention it again.

:cool:
 
I used to work as a security guard some years ago and I was contractually obligated not to carry a weapon. I worked the graveyard shift at an industrial facility, a place that I knew had materials that could be used in explosives manufacture. So I carried a weapon as soon as I was comfortable with the assignment. This was a big deal for me since I knew I had an ethical obligation to follow the rules of my company. After much soul-searching I finally decided it was more important for me to be protected than to worry about the company's liability. I could be fired, yes, but they could be sued.

That's why I hold myself to the highest standards of self-defense. In that case I knew that I had to take extraordinary measures to avoid drawing my weapon and only do so even beyond the legal boundaries.

One of my good friends worked for the same security company, and had provided me with a personal reference that helped me land the job. He was also friends with my roommate at the time, and one day my roommate happened to walk in while I was getting dressed for work. He saw my USP and declared his surprise at the fact that I carried at work. In my ignorance I hadn't expected this to be a problem, which is why my door was open. Unfortunately, he let it slip to the other friend that I carried on duty. That friend was livid, and threatened to turn me in to the company if I didn't stop carrying. I told him I would, but it created a major rift in our friendship that took months to heal. He didn't turn me in but he did force me to compromise on my ideals over his (anti-CCW, that is). This is a major reason why I specifically sought jobs that either required a weapon or did not specifically forbid them.

In my current situation, I will probably start carrying on-person as soon as I feel comfortable with the job (1-2 weeks). I suspect that if I am an excellent employee that eventually the boss will trust me and won't care if I carry all the time. But I will still take all measures to avoid detection. Anchored and Sanchezero were both right, what's the point of trying to justify things with semantics? Fired is fired, right?
 
Devonai:

If you have time to 1) get to your car, 2) unlock the trunk, 3) remove your carbine from its locked container, and 4) load it, then you have time to get in your car, start it, and get the heck out of Dodge, which would be the preferred response. If you really need a gun, I can't see how you would have the time to access a gun in trunk but not have enough time to beat feet. And in MA, when you are outside of your home, you are required to retreat if it is safe to do so.

If I were you, I would suggest that you figure out some way to secure you handgun in your car (hide a lockbox somewhere). When you leave the office, retrieve the handgun, when you return to the office, stash it. Use deep cover (e.g., pocket carry with a small .38) that is unlikely to be seen. It seems to me that a loaded .38 in your pocket would be whole lot more useful than an unloaded carbine locked in your trunk.

M1911
 
Get a P-32 and a good pocket holster.
Due the silly MA laws, no P32s are available here. But a .38 and a pocket holster would be a suitable alternative.
 
I already have a Sig 239 .40 that's ready to fit the bill in a IWB holster. Should be undetectable unless I have to remove my outer layer.
 
That is a very bizarre policy IMO. It just doesn't make any sense. I would seek other employment. And if I did take that job I would carry anyway. I did some PI work years ago and I would never even consider doing surveillance or tailing unarmed. I can say from experience that "safe neighborhood" doesn't mean much in that type of work. The easiest cases I ever had were in the worst neighborhoods, and the closest I came to getting killed was in a "safe neighborhood" YMMV

I just can't understand that policy at all.
 
I would seek other employment

I have always sought out jobs that either require weapons OR do not mitigate the carry thereof.

I have been out of work for several weeks and have applied to fifteen different security and investigational firms. I WILL be taking this job.
 
Well, things have been going well. My Sig 239 has remained undetected, as it should. I think perhaps I made a mountain out of a molehill for this one, folks.

Thank you all for your input.
 
Posted by atk:

Can your supervisor limit your ability to protect yourself? I don't believe so.

Did you sign a contract? Can you sign your rights away? I recall there being a court case where it was decided that an individual cannot sign away his or her rights. If my recollection is right, the contractual agreement to not protect yourself doesn't matter.
------------

Can your supervisor limit your ability to protect yourself? Yes, no doubt about it. No contract is needed for this specific topic at all. Remaining employed is based on adhering to the rules of the company and directives of a supervisor. Part of the employment agreement is that you agree to abide by company rules, policies, directives, etc., perform your job, and then get compensated. If you don't follow the rules, then they can fire you.

So, you don't have to have a signed contract concerning this specific activity. Also, it there was a contract, rule, policy etc. on this, it would not say that you don't have the right to protect yourself. What it says is that you are not allowed to bring a gun. A gun is simply one type of tool that can be used for self protection. There are many other tools and ways to protect yourself other than with a gun. If you feel like a gun is the only way you can protect yourself, then you are screwed. You are a one trick pony and if you can't have your gun at work, forgot your gun one day, or had your gun go down in the middle of a fight, then with no other self protection tools in your bag of tricks, you are screwed should something happen. In short, you have put all your eggs in one basket which is not a good idea when it comes to self defense matters.

Can you sign your rights away? Well, first let's look at what would be signed away. Being able to carry a gun via the permit means that the 'right' is not a right, but a licensed privilage. So this isn't exactly a rights issues unless you want to try to argue the 2nd amendment right to bear arms not being infringed, but so far the courts have consistently shown that such rights can be infringed.

As for signing your rights away, of course you can! Check out the Miranda rights. "You have the right to remain silent, but if you choose to give up that right..." Signed or verbal, you can give up your rights.

When you are employed, you do voluntarily give up rights for money as part of employment during those times when you are working for the company. Obviously, when you are off the clock, off company property and not in a company vehicle, they can't limit your actions. Your freedom of speech can be taken from you (such as via verbal insubordination, no right to backtalk to your boss without sufferin the consequences such as being fired), freedom of expression, pursuit of happiness, etc. while on the clock. Just because you want to leave work to go bowling as part of your pursuit of happiness, that will not protect you from getting fired. He can't physically prevent you from going, but if you do go, he definitely can physically prevent you from returning to your old job.

Remember, it does not matter whether or not you think your boss or the company has a right to prevent you from carrying a firearm, other things, speech, happiness, the fact of the matter is that you can be limited and such limitations will hold up in court. Your rights to perform in a certain matter while on company time, property etc. do not supercede the company's rights to not allowing you to carry. Similarly, just because you have a permit does not mean that your neighbor has to let you bring your gun onto his property if he doesn't want you to bring guns on his property. Your permit to carry does not supercede his rights as to what happens on his property.
 
The truth is that many people carried for years before we entered this legal twilight zone.

No harm, no foul. Don't make any foolish mistakes, and whatever you decide to do, no one will know ... unless you actually need it one day to defend innocent life. And, if that happens, you'll be glad you did what you had to do.

Good luck with your decision, and with the new job.

Regards from TX
 
Double Naught Spy,


Interesting perspective; I hadn't thought about it in those terms, but you make a lot of sense.


----- This line and below are the edit -----

I spent some time mulling this over, and I guess I have a little more to say in response.

You're right, but I'm not sure we agree on why. Here's my reasoning - please let me know if you think it makes sense, or if there are any holes in it. I am not a legal expert, but this is what I believe to be accurate, until convinced otherwise. I understand that we live in reality, where the legal system can wreak havoc with what we'd like reality to be, so if anyone who knows the intricacies of reality better than I do, I'd very much appreciate an education - and I mean that sincerely, without sarcasm of any kind.

At any time, you are entitled to exercize your rights. You are also entitled to not exercize those rights. Just because you can speak doesn't mean you have to speak.

It is, therefore, possible to enter into an agreement by which you will not exercize your rights in exchange for employment. If, at any time, you choose to break the agreement and exercize those rights, the other party of the agreement (the employer) need no longer fulfill their part of such agreement.

As for a gun being the only way to protect yourself, you're entirely right. I apoligize if I implied otherwise. A gun is the last resort when protecting yourself, and should be avoided in every possible situation. In order to avoid use of a firearm, it is imperitive that one learns other forms of self defense, ranging from situational awareness, to verbal de-escalation skills, to running, to various martial arts.

We've both mentioned the "signing rights away" stuff. Your analysis (that gun ownership is a privilage rather than a right) seems stronger than mine does - at least without plenty of money with which to defend oneself in court.

You mention the miranda warning. I'm curious about the exact verbiage you used, and what your source is. Nothing I found (in my very quick web search) turned up anything that stated "if you choose to give up that right". Maybe I'm just reading more into this than is there, but it looks to me like you're saying that a person can remove a right from themself. Pending a good source, I don't agree that you can remove a right from yourself. Of course, I'm still not a legal expert, by any means :).

I guess I agree with your analysis of the situation, but I also figure that Devonai has to decide which is more important to him - employment or emergency equipment.

edited for more complete response
 
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ATK - to use another example of waiving, or "giving up" a right, if you decide to plead guilty to a criminal charge you are waiving your right to a trial. In almost every jurisdiction, once you have done so and the case is closed (in GA, once you are sentenced), you can not then change your mind and exercise your right to trial absent a showing of some grave injustice such as pleading guilty under threat of harm to you or your family, etc.

With Miranda, you can waive your right to remain silent and then change your mind and clam up.

As you can see, it depends on which right you are talking about.
 
I know of at least one McDonald's manager who's strapped at the ankle.

McDonald's corp. doesn't want their employees to be armed. It's easier to clean up a neat row of duct-taped and blind-folded bodies found shot, execution-style, tucked discreetly in the walk-in freezer, than it is to mop up a couple dead bandits strewn over the counter top and tables, marinating in pools of their own blood. :scrutiny:

Murphy's Law says you're going to need your gun when you don't have it.
 
As previously mentioned. A gun in the car is not going to help you when the SHTF most of the time. Nothing wrong with the idea of having a gun in the car, but I'd rather have one on my person. After all if you can get to the car, you generally can get away, call LEO, etc. Your boss my not think about the "out of sight..out of mind of concealed carry and may just be thinking about your duty weapon. Personally my #1 duty is to go home at the end of the day....
 
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