C&R to Regular Dealer Transfer Questions

It should go like this:
Your dealer gives you a signed copy of his license in red or blue ink to send to me along with the money order. I in turn package the pistol and send it to his store along a signed copy of my C&R license along with a note that I sold it to you and for him to transfer it to you in his store.

That is all that needs to be done....I have dealt with too many a-hole dealers that make things harder than they need to be. One dealer even refused to transfer a rifle to a guy I sent until I told him I would have to contact the ATF and tell them what he was doing.

If your dealer is going to be an a-hole I'm not going to deal with this....

You do not have a C&R, correct? A C&R is not a dealer so this would be a private seller to private seller situation. If you both reside in the same state you can do a face to face transfer if the buyer is not disqualified with no nics. Across state lines the seller would have to get your dealers FFL #. Go to a UPS or fedex depot. The local mail and pack is not acceptable. Present the FFL# and address and tell them it's a handgun or longgun you are shipping. No identifying markings allowed on the packaging. You would have to take possesion through the dealer including a nics.

Go get your C&R. Then you can recieve C&R firearms interstate from another C&R or a dealer shipped to your home without the nics. I can't think of a good reason not to other than the government will have all of your personal information. Most of us have our concealed permits so they already have all that info anyway so wth. They just want us to follow the rules and don't deal in firearms. We can sell to enhance our collections but thats all. Your transaction is not wrong at all but the more people that get C&R the better for all because we would have proof we are selling to a qualified person.

Hey NRAJOE, we were typing at the same time and I didn't see your reply. I'm a slow typer. heh. Welcome to the forum.

Alot of dealers won't give a copy of their license just their number. The carrier can look it up on the atf ez ffl check site and mail it to that address only. The C&R copy is not required either because a C&R is not a dealer it's to collect only. ie recieve firearms in interstate commerce. Anyone can ship but it must be to a dealer.

From a purely Federal perspective, an 03 FFL C&R Licensee can:

- Buy and recieve Curio & Relic Status firearms from:

• Out state, and in-state 01 FFL's.
• Other 03 C&R FFL's in, or out-state.
• In-state non-licensees.

- Sell and send Cuiro & Relic Status firearms to:

• Out-state and in-state 01 FFL's (anybody can, actualy)
• Other in or out-state 03 C&R FFL's.
• In-state non licensees.

An 03 C&R FFL can sell firearms. However, it has to be twoards the purpose of either enhancing your collection, or ridding yourself of your collection completely.

That means you have to be ridding yourself of duplicate firearms, or examples of lesser quality, and/or raising money to buy different C&R firearms that you are interested in. Or a collector who is tired of guns and collecting can sell off his entire collection.

The C&R licensee can not be selling to be "in business" or purely for profit. Where the line is between "enhancing", or "divesting" a collection, and "being in business" is a grey area purely at the discretion of the ATF and Federal prosecutors.

So if you sell an M1 Garand to another 03 FFL in or out-state because you have others, or want the money freed up to buy a couple of Mosin Nagant's etc. You're fine. Same thing if it's to an in-state non-licensee as long as it's in accordance with your state laws.

01 FFL's giving 03 C&R FFL's a hard time is a two-parter:

- Being an 01 is so difficult these days, they're paranoid to the point of refusing perfectly legal transactions.

- 01's resent the direct conduit of cheap milsurps from the major distributor's directly to 03's.

Thanks for the welcome....I have sold roughly 20-30 guns over the internet via my C&R license and sold some non C&R guns also.

Ever person I've dealt with has sent me a copy of their C&R license or a copy of their Dealers 01 license for inclusion into my log book.

Dealers that will not send a copy of their License will not get a gun of mine sent to them.

I am now selling a C&R Swiss K31 to a guy, his dealer is sending me a copy of his license....I in turn am sending a copy of my C&R along with a note saying I have sold the K31 to his client and to transfer it to him.

A transfer from a Type 03 FFL (Collector) to a Type 01 FFL (Dealer) is still a transfer between licensees. The Collector must have a certified copy of the dealer's FFL before he can ship to that dealer. See 27CFR §478.94.

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart F_Conduct of Business

Sec. 478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.

A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer
selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector
selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee
shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to
making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the
transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the
transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems
necessary

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Yeah, I told the guy that 01 dealers usually treat 03 holders like crap...they hate that we can cut out the middle man...

Thank you EOD Guy...you are correct!

From a purely Federal perspective, an 03 FFL C&R Licensee can:

- Buy and recieve Curio & Relic Status firearms from:
Out state, and in-state 01 FFL's.
Other 03 C&R FFL's in, or out-state.
In-state non-licensees.

- Sell and send Cuiro & Relic Status firearms to:
Out-state and in-state 01 FFL's (anybody can, actualy)
Other in or out-state 03 C&R FFL's.
In-state non licensees.

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Almost correct, but not quite.

A Type 03 FFL can receive C&R firearms from out of state nonlicensees.
He can also buy C&R firearms face to face from out of state nonlicensees.
He can sell C&R firearms to out of state nonlicensees, but the sale must take place at his licensed premises and must comply with the laws of both states.

NRAJOE:
Ever person I've dealt with has sent me a copy of their C&R license or a copy of their Dealers 01 license for inclusion into my log book.

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You have a certified copy of AIM inc.'s or Sog's FFL 01 License?

You only need the 'name and address' of a FFL 01 in your bound book.


"When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping."

A Type 03 FFL can receive C&R firearms from out of state nonlicensees.
He can also buy C&R firearms face to face from out of state nonlicensees.
He can sell C&R firearms to out of state nonlicensees, but the sale must take place at his licensed premises and must comply with the laws of both states.

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You're correct. I forgot to mention out-of state licensees, I was thinking it, but didn't type it.

Although, it's been my experiance that other than dealing with other 03's on gun boards, and the main mail-order houses like CIA, SOG, AIM, Inter-Ord, Sarco, etc, that outside of these places, due to ignorance and paranoia, the 03 is largely useless.

I'd love verbiage in the appropriate 922 sections that refusal of an 03 FFL simply for the sake of it being an 03 FFL for a qualified firearm is a punishable offense.

I have sold roughly 20-30 guns over the internet via my C&R license and sold some non C&R guns also.

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With an 03 C&R? I wouldn't be blabbing that fact all over the internet where the ATF guys could see it.

I didn't sell modern guns with my 03 dude...take a chill pill.

What I did sell with my 03 were all perfectly legal C&R sales to either get rid of duplicates or to get something else....

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I didn't sell modern guns with my 03 dude...take a chill pill.

What I did sell with my 03 were all perfectly legal C&R sales to either get rid of duplicates or to get something else....

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Doesn't matter what they were. An 03 is a license to collect, not to be a dealer. I'm not saying what you did was wrong, what I'm saying is that by anybody's standards selling 20-30 or more guns is enough to give the appearance that you are dealing and not collecting. And why advertise the fact and expose yourself to the scrutiny?

You have a certified copy of AIM inc.'s or Sog's FFL 01 License?

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Certified? by who or what? An ink signed copy is what is needed or a faxed copy, ask they give them to you.

As an FFL holder, the misinformation and sheer ignorance dispalayed by both fellow gun owners and FFL holders is appalling. If you have an FFL, whether it be an 01, 02, 03, 04, etc., you have the regs books. READ THEM! If you don't know something, look it up. If you're still not sure, ask the ATF. Call or write them. Do not just take just someone else's word, especially on the internet, for what is legal.

All of the following information is available for anyone to read at the bATF website:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

According to federal law, you do not need an FFL of any sort to sell or ship a firearm, nor to receive a firearm in intrastate (within a single state) shipment. You only need one to receive firearms in interstate (between two or more states) shipment.

An 03 (C&R) holder may still sell and ship non-C&R weapons, but may only receive interstate shipments of C&R's. An 03 (C&R) holder may not receive non-C&R weapons in interstate shipment. They must be received by an 01 or 02 and do the background check & etc. just like any other non-licensed person.

Per federal regulations, anyone may ship firearms interstate to an FFL. You must have a signed copy of the receiving FFL before you ship and must only ship to the address on the license. Just the license number is not enough. You must have the signed copy. If you ship without the signed copy in your possession, except for returning a gun to the original manufacturer for repair as allowed, you are in violation of the law. It used to be necessary to have a copy with an original signature, but the bATF has recently ruled that a faxcimile of a signed FFL is now acceptable, as long as the license and signature are clearly legible.

FFL exCheck information is only availabe for business licensees. Since 03 (C&R) holders are private collectors, their information is private, therefore cannot be verified by the ezCheck system.

Anyone can ship long guns through the USPS, but only FFL holders may ship handguns through the USPS. However, anyone may ship handguns through private contract carriers such as UPS or FedEx.

An 03 (C&R) holder may sell, trade, etc. C&R firearms in order to further his collection. He may not engage in business of selling or trading firearms. This is a grey area of the law and is determined by the bATF on a case by case basis.

A few of the commie states have much more restrictive laws, but thankfully most of us still have some semblence of the second amendment intact.

Per federal regulations, anyone may ship firearms interstate to an FFL. You must have a signed copy of the receiving FFL before you ship and must only ship to the address on the license. Just the license number is not enough. You must have the signed copy. If you ship without the signed copy in your possession, except for returning a gun to the original manufacturer for repair as allowed, you are in violation of the law.

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Only applies to shipments between licensees. Nonlicensees don't need a signed FFL to ship a firearm.

Quote:
You have a certified copy of AIM inc.'s or Sog's FFL 01 License?

Certified? by who or what? An ink signed copy is what is needed or a faxed copy, ask they give them to you.

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Certified by the license holder. His signature on the FFL copy is the certification.

From the book.

(F8) In transactions between licensees, how is the seller assured that a purchaser of a firearm is a licensed dealer?

Verification must be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by any other means the transferor deems necessary (such as the FFL eZcheck).

So the only the seller is required to obtain a copy of the buyers license if they are both licensees'.

I apologize that I was wrong on the ezcheck. I didn't read the 'and', I was thinking 'and/or'. sorry. And I haven't sold anything. So the buyer is not required to have the sellers license and of all my guns no one has ever included their FFL01. I haven't bought from a 03 and but for my personal records and satisfaction would want a copy of a 03 as the transferee. The transferor would be required per the above definition.

But this topic was started by a non-licensee so none of this matters even though the firearm is c&r it must be transfered as a modern firearm through a FFL in the buyers state and no one got that wrong. It does not say the seller must include a copy of the buyers' dealers' FFL01. But I'm not an 01 so I only know what is in the 'book' they sent me. And I don't know if the carrier would require it. But then they would have to open your packaging if they did. I don't know.

This is an informative topic. No one needs to be pissy and condesending because they think they can cifer the federal code better than others. You have to admit it's not real clear. Alot of the stuff in the handbook they send to 03's is for 01's.