Devonai
Member
11B, of course. They're right there between the M134 and the M18A1.
Security Ninja, caught and arrested!!!
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11B, of course. They're right there between the M134 and the M18A1.
madmike
Member
If they're anything like the 11Bs I was babysitting last week, those airguns will last just long enough for their first sight adjustment with pliers and a large rock.:banghead:
Besides, most 11Bs fight their fights with artillery.
Besides, most 11Bs fight their fights with artillery.
Devonai
Member
Hey, we try to limit fire missions to five per day, all right?
There are way more of these guys than anyone would be comfortable with. I used to work contract security, and let me tell you people like this are *everywhere* some of them are more obvious than others, but they are all scary. Imagine the worste cop that you have ever heard of, now think of the guy who wasnt good enough to be him. 
Matthew748
Member
Hmm...2 sets of body armor. Where have I heard that before? Could this be Gecko45?
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The world of Wannabe is a sad place...
Gunshow Commandos, Cop Groupies--heck, even the Keyboard Kommandos we see here at THR. Mostly harmless, but every now and then comes Bad Stuff.
For instance, Jack Ruby was a Cop Groupie, which is how he got that close to Lee harvey Oswald.
Art
Gunshow Commandos, Cop Groupies--heck, even the Keyboard Kommandos we see here at THR. Mostly harmless, but every now and then comes Bad Stuff.
For instance, Jack Ruby was a Cop Groupie, which is how he got that close to Lee harvey Oswald.
Art
madmike
Member
Well, gapping Oswald wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Except for all the resultant conspiracies. But your point is taken.
SF wannabes are the worst. I get annoyed when in the middle of a conference one of them will say, "Speaking as a former Navy SEAL..."
Of course, there was the time a buddy of mine replied, "What BUD/S class and who was the school commander at that time? Hmmm? Siddown, poser."
SF wannabes are the worst. I get annoyed when in the middle of a conference one of them will say, "Speaking as a former Navy SEAL..."
Of course, there was the time a buddy of mine replied, "What BUD/S class and who was the school commander at that time? Hmmm? Siddown, poser."
DRZinn
Member
Sit back, relax, open a beer. Not one post has defended the cops here. Not. One. Post.
Make fun of the old guy? Sure, that's what we do with wannabes like Gunkid around here.
Again, NOBODY has cheered the cops here. Back off.
You are not the only one who sees the distinction between legality and morality. Sometimes when something like this happens, it is instructive to post the law so as to see if the police were operating within their duties or not. Then, if they were not, we can attack them on that basis and use the law as a guard against the ones who like to scream "Cop-bashing! Cop-bashing!"
And, the old guy wasn't arrested for "the "crime" of looking different, even scary." He was arrested because the state of Illinois has decided that possession of those items is a danger to the people of the state of Illinois. Wrong? Sure. But don't go spouting off about arresting people for looking different.
I shall remove all content from my previous posting, as I have found this is the best way to end disputes.
However, Doc, he was stopped and searched for the "crime" of looking different, at which point the presence of certain items, at least one of them alleged to be illegally possessed and none of which he had used or attempted to use against persons or property, resulted in his arrest.
Long story short: arrested for peaceably looking different.
That is the kind of government the line of reasoning you put forth supports.
--Herself
PS: I think there are plenty of police out there who deserve plenty of cheering-on and generally don't get it. But not storm-trooper cops leaning on flakes and weirdos for being flaky and weird. Please understand the distinction I am trying to make even if you don't agree with it.
However, Doc, he was stopped and searched for the "crime" of looking different, at which point the presence of certain items, at least one of them alleged to be illegally possessed and none of which he had used or attempted to use against persons or property, resulted in his arrest.
Long story short: arrested for peaceably looking different.
That is the kind of government the line of reasoning you put forth supports.
--Herself
PS: I think there are plenty of police out there who deserve plenty of cheering-on and generally don't get it. But not storm-trooper cops leaning on flakes and weirdos for being flaky and weird. Please understand the distinction I am trying to make even if you don't agree with it.
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Working Man
Member
Interesting thing I was told by an officer that I had known for a number of
years. He told me years back he was talking to an older officer that had
what he claimed were Ruby's original cartridges that he swapped out for him
with new "police" issue cartridges. He stated that this was done because the
ones Ruby had were so old and the cases were discolored that he thought
they may not work.
Not sure if the other officer was BSing the one I know but he stated the guy
was not one to blow smoke.
Edit: Ruby had shown the officer the gun before during a conversation.
The officer did knot know he was going to shoot Oswald.
madmike
Member
That's a common reason to stop and search people. I know a couple of Army Officer Candidates working up to their 12 mile, four hour ruck march. They go marching with rucks and metal bars once a week.
They DID carry rifles, which IS perfectly legal, but the police stopped them and inquired. One's in a rural area where they said, "No problem, we'll take note of it, but it is attracting attention." The other is suburban and was asked to stop doing so. It may be legal, but it's distracting and bothersome and creates work for the cop. So they carry metal bars in lieu of rifles.
Does IL have really offensive, even fascistic weapons laws? Heck, yes. Was Mall Ninja violating said laws? Unfortunately, also yes. Did he look a mite disturbing? Fraid so.
Cop had to make a judgment call. "You know, I don't think this guy's quite all there, and he IS violating a law. Better run him in."
I don't approve of it, but I certainly understand how it happened.
They DID carry rifles, which IS perfectly legal, but the police stopped them and inquired. One's in a rural area where they said, "No problem, we'll take note of it, but it is attracting attention." The other is suburban and was asked to stop doing so. It may be legal, but it's distracting and bothersome and creates work for the cop. So they carry metal bars in lieu of rifles.
Does IL have really offensive, even fascistic weapons laws? Heck, yes. Was Mall Ninja violating said laws? Unfortunately, also yes. Did he look a mite disturbing? Fraid so.
Cop had to make a judgment call. "You know, I don't think this guy's quite all there, and he IS violating a law. Better run him in."
I don't approve of it, but I certainly understand how it happened.
madmike
Member
Say again:
Let's take a hypothetical. You're here in Indiana. I set up across the street in a car, with binoculars, and stake out your house. I have a Remington 700 with all the sniper drag on it visible on the car's back deck. I'm wearing camo, painted up. I have video cameras rolling, and take occasional zoom telephoto images. I periodically go over to the sidewalk with forensic scales and take photos of footprints, etc, and root through your trash.
You call the cops, and they say, "But we can't make a stop or question him. He's not doing anything illegal..."
How do you feel?
Let's take a hypothetical. You're here in Indiana. I set up across the street in a car, with binoculars, and stake out your house. I have a Remington 700 with all the sniper drag on it visible on the car's back deck. I'm wearing camo, painted up. I have video cameras rolling, and take occasional zoom telephoto images. I periodically go over to the sidewalk with forensic scales and take photos of footprints, etc, and root through your trash.
You call the cops, and they say, "But we can't make a stop or question him. He's not doing anything illegal..."
How do you feel?
Greg L
Member
Ah, that would explain the lack of them around here. Like the swallows returning to San Juan Capistrano, we have an annual dragon migration that rivals it (doesn't get as much press though). The past couple of years have been fairly quiet. I'll miss them flying overhead but it is good to know that they weren't driven to extinction, just driven away.......
Strings
Member
>There are way more of these guys than anyone would be comfortable with. I used to work contract security, and let me tell you people like this are *everywhere* some of them are more obvious than others, but they are all scary. Imagine the worste cop that you have ever heard of, now think of the guy who wasnt good enough to be him.<
I worked contract security for awhile. There are a couple types of guards you'll find:
1)the old-timer. Usually retired from a previous job, and just wants something to do to fill time.
2)college students. Most jobs I worked, you pretty much sat around a guard shack most of the time. While the job is minimum wage, at least they're gettin' paid to study...
3)Wannabes. These folks range from the OPs subject, to the SERIOUSLY taced-out loonies similar to Gecko45. I've seen guards with enough hardware in their cars to refight both world wars...
4)The loosers. The guys that SHOULD be doing factory work, but just can't be bothered to do actual work. They're harmless.
5)"Just passing through". I fell into this category. Folks who get into private security thinking it might be worthwhile, and leave when they realize "security" in this instance means "insurance right-off", and don't feel like getting paid minimum wage to read every night. Some WILL stay on, but only as a second job...
I worked contract security for awhile. There are a couple types of guards you'll find:
1)the old-timer. Usually retired from a previous job, and just wants something to do to fill time.
2)college students. Most jobs I worked, you pretty much sat around a guard shack most of the time. While the job is minimum wage, at least they're gettin' paid to study...
3)Wannabes. These folks range from the OPs subject, to the SERIOUSLY taced-out loonies similar to Gecko45. I've seen guards with enough hardware in their cars to refight both world wars...
4)The loosers. The guys that SHOULD be doing factory work, but just can't be bothered to do actual work. They're harmless.
5)"Just passing through". I fell into this category. Folks who get into private security thinking it might be worthwhile, and leave when they realize "security" in this instance means "insurance right-off", and don't feel like getting paid minimum wage to read every night. Some WILL stay on, but only as a second job...
modifiedbrowning
Member
So, where was the intent? He was just sitting in his car.
Wrong question, Mad. It isn't about my ever-so-darling-precious feeeeelings, it's about what you're doing. It is an initiation of force or is it not? For instance, entering my curtilage to go through my trash, which, as other have pointed out, is trespass and can, here in Indiana, justifiably end up with you finding out that you really can see the JHP sitting ready by looking down the muzzle end of a handgun. Deliberately videotaping persons who have not given consent when said taping does not occur incidentally to some taping other subject may also be actionable; I have neither the time nor the inclination to look it up but perhaps El Tejon will run a quick check.madmike said:
But that's not what this is about, either. Gosh, some of the postings here, along with the speeches of Joe Stalin and Adolph Hitler (to borrow a technique, see above) have such a great willingness to spin tortured hypotheticals onto an easily-understood real-world situation: what if you were sitting across from my house doing what the horrid menace-to-society in Kanakee was doing?
That would not include getting out of your vehicle, entering my property (enclosed front porch or fenced and gated back yard*) to go though my trash. It would not include pointing an Unknown Device at me (is that a camera or a short black shotgun? My eyes are poor. I really cannot tell). Nope, you'd be sitting alone in a sort-of-police-looking-car across the street at 749/751 Mystreet, in bigtime copdrag, perhaps looking dazed or even dozing. Period. And you would not need to give a reason for being there because no citizen need do so to be in any public place, despite the peculiar notions to the contrary held by police forces over in IL.
If The Gun Culture only cares to protect the rights of persons who fit a very narrow range of apperance, behavior and attitude, then count me out. That is anti-freedom. It's nothing but elitism at best.
--Herself
_______________________________
* Yeah, my trash only goes out when I hear the truck coming. While it might be tacticool to pretend that's for some super-security reason, it isn't. We've got a lot of dogs about; they open up trash containers and make a mess.
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The million dollar question:
Where does a society draw the line between individual freedom and public safety?
Herself said;
Posing as a police officer, decking your car out to look like a squad car, and usuing these props in a scheme to abduct, rape and sometimes murder women is a common M.O.
The question is, what about the potential victims? Do they take comfort in the fact that the police knew that there was guy dressed in police regalia, sitting in a personal automobile that was set up like a squad car near a mall where he could possibly be casing the crowd for a victim; and they didn't even ask what he was doing there, because no citizen, no matter how suspicious he looks need to articulate a reason for being in a public place?
After all, they might want to dress up as police officer sometime and sit outside the mall just to see how it feels, and they would ant their right to do that protected.
Or do they want the police to investigate someone who was dressed in police regalia, sitting outside the mall in his car that was equipped like a squad car, to ascertain that he didn't have evil intentions?
What do you think the public opinion of the police would be if this guy who was just exercising his right to dress in police regalia, sit in his car that was modified like a squad car and sit and watch the mall, followed a young mother out of the parking lot, pulled her over on a deserted street, abducted, raped and murdered her?
Would the public be outraged that the police on that beat knew that he sat there watching the parking lot, and never even talked to him?
Or would they be comforted by knowing that they didn't live in a place like Hitler's Germany or the Stalinist USSR?
If madmike was sitting outside your house engaging in the harmless fanatsy of being a supersecret, megaforce, death dealing, tango whacking operative (as described in his post) and you called the local local police to report a suspicious person, and they said, sorry he's got every right to sit there with all that high speed, low drag ninja equipment and watch things, call us back after he shoots you with his sniper rifle, it would be your preferred response?
It wouldn't be most other people's preferred response. When they call the police to report a suspicious person, they want the police to come check them out. In fact most of them get pretty irate if we don't come in what they consider a timely manner.
There are a lot of suspicious person calls. Most of them are dealt with by driving past and seeing what's going on. The person who was the subject of the suspicious person call often never even knows about it. If the person or his activities does look out of the ordinary, then they answer a couple questions about who they are and what they are up to. Often we even catch criminals on those calls.
Jeff
Where does a society draw the line between individual freedom and public safety?
Herself said;
Posing as a police officer, decking your car out to look like a squad car, and usuing these props in a scheme to abduct, rape and sometimes murder women is a common M.O.
The question is, what about the potential victims? Do they take comfort in the fact that the police knew that there was guy dressed in police regalia, sitting in a personal automobile that was set up like a squad car near a mall where he could possibly be casing the crowd for a victim; and they didn't even ask what he was doing there, because no citizen, no matter how suspicious he looks need to articulate a reason for being in a public place?
After all, they might want to dress up as police officer sometime and sit outside the mall just to see how it feels, and they would ant their right to do that protected.
Or do they want the police to investigate someone who was dressed in police regalia, sitting outside the mall in his car that was equipped like a squad car, to ascertain that he didn't have evil intentions?
What do you think the public opinion of the police would be if this guy who was just exercising his right to dress in police regalia, sit in his car that was modified like a squad car and sit and watch the mall, followed a young mother out of the parking lot, pulled her over on a deserted street, abducted, raped and murdered her?
Would the public be outraged that the police on that beat knew that he sat there watching the parking lot, and never even talked to him?
Or would they be comforted by knowing that they didn't live in a place like Hitler's Germany or the Stalinist USSR?
If madmike was sitting outside your house engaging in the harmless fanatsy of being a supersecret, megaforce, death dealing, tango whacking operative (as described in his post) and you called the local local police to report a suspicious person, and they said, sorry he's got every right to sit there with all that high speed, low drag ninja equipment and watch things, call us back after he shoots you with his sniper rifle, it would be your preferred response?
It wouldn't be most other people's preferred response. When they call the police to report a suspicious person, they want the police to come check them out. In fact most of them get pretty irate if we don't come in what they consider a timely manner.
There are a lot of suspicious person calls. Most of them are dealt with by driving past and seeing what's going on. The person who was the subject of the suspicious person call often never even knows about it. If the person or his activities does look out of the ordinary, then they answer a couple questions about who they are and what they are up to. Often we even catch criminals on those calls.
Jeff
gunsmith
member
I loved my 2nd to last security job
b4 loomis (which sucked) I was an armed guard working for san francisco muni
at the cable car turn around at fishermans wharf, AH, the questions I was asked by liberals from around the world.
There was the lady from England who was amazed I was carrying a gun and wanted to know when it was ok to use it....I told her..."you know, when I'm hungover or in a bad mood"
The Federal park police who were shocked at an armed guard as well
The best questions was when they asked "do the cable cars go both ways"?
And I would say "your in San Francisco, everything goes both ways here"
"Why is the line so long?" my answer, "the dictatorship of the proletariot"
Alot of people didn't get that one so I would modify it to "the dictatorship of the Democrat party"....
most of the time the job is more boring then anything else and if your a member here and a security guard then you are over qualified and smarter then your co workers.
But in some states like CA, NJ, NY it's your only way to practice pistol shooting without being a cop.
b4 loomis (which sucked) I was an armed guard working for san francisco muni
at the cable car turn around at fishermans wharf, AH, the questions I was asked by liberals from around the world.
There was the lady from England who was amazed I was carrying a gun and wanted to know when it was ok to use it....I told her..."you know, when I'm hungover or in a bad mood"
The Federal park police who were shocked at an armed guard as well
The best questions was when they asked "do the cable cars go both ways"?
And I would say "your in San Francisco, everything goes both ways here"
"Why is the line so long?" my answer, "the dictatorship of the proletariot"
Alot of people didn't get that one so I would modify it to "the dictatorship of the Democrat party"....
most of the time the job is more boring then anything else and if your a member here and a security guard then you are over qualified and smarter then your co workers.
But in some states like CA, NJ, NY it's your only way to practice pistol shooting without being a cop.
Thank you, Illinios Law Enforcement Officer Jeff White, for clarifying the interesting notions held by policemen in Illinois with regard to the rights of peacable citizens to move about and stay put in public.
Police spokepeople in Indiana urge great caution when stopped by persons presenting themselves as LEOs: moving to a lighted area where others are present before stopping, not leaving your vehicle over a simple traffic stop and similar tactics. I can assure you that is what I would do and have done and for any stop where I knew I had not violated a traffic rule, I would be very likely to call 911, too.
I would suggest this tactic might work best in places where citizens have been indoctrinated to submit unthinkingly to persons presenting themselves as police officers. And it is my judgement that the problem would be the indoctrination. What created the niche for such predators to function, Jeff?
How often does one of your common-in-IL-fake-cop rapists shoot someone with a sniper rifle? That's a real stretched hypothetical! If I sweated over every bad probablity that low, I'd never even dare take a shower or walk down the street. And if, when I zoom out the drive on my bicycle, Madmike's evil twin grabs me and tries to rape me, he's in for quite a fight. If I can't stop him, I'll at least put him in the position of having to rape a corpse -- I'm in a nothing-to-lose mood these days and if I can't help myself, at least I'll be ensuring he goes away for even longer when they catch him. Maybe us Hoosier barbarians will even fry him!
But let's not fry the harmless goofballs, freaks and weirdos. Let's not even take 'em downtown or just stop them, demand their papers, search them and their vehicles and if anything is the least bit out of line, nab them for the evildoers they are! That's no way for a free society to function and remain free.
Jeff, are you sure everything you have done and possess will pass muster? No brass-knuckle paperweight in a drawer? Never messed up an IRS form? Nothing at all? Are you certain?
--Herself
How common? Can you produce any data to support your assertion? If not, I shall have to file it under "scare tactics," as occurances of this in Indiana are so uncommon as to produce front-page headlines when it does happen. I recall one occurrance in the last 30 years but I have not been tracjing them closely. Perhaps there have been two or even three. Slipping in the bathtub and being seriously injured or killed happens lot more frequently, yet where's the hue and cry over that?Jeff White said:
Police spokepeople in Indiana urge great caution when stopped by persons presenting themselves as LEOs: moving to a lighted area where others are present before stopping, not leaving your vehicle over a simple traffic stop and similar tactics. I can assure you that is what I would do and have done and for any stop where I knew I had not violated a traffic rule, I would be very likely to call 911, too.
I would suggest this tactic might work best in places where citizens have been indoctrinated to submit unthinkingly to persons presenting themselves as police officers. And it is my judgement that the problem would be the indoctrination. What created the niche for such predators to function, Jeff?
"Potential victims?" Oh -- you mean what I refer to as "citizens." Gosh, I never thought of my fellow citizens as a victim-pool. Why would one do so? The key word here is potential. Has a crime been committed? No. Fear-mongering doesn't make a crime less likely to be committed, either.Jeff White said:
Yes, exactly. That is the response I expect of the police. Why does that seem so wildly far-out to you? That's not a jab. I'm seriously curious.Jeff White said:
How often does one of your common-in-IL-fake-cop rapists shoot someone with a sniper rifle? That's a real stretched hypothetical! If I sweated over every bad probablity that low, I'd never even dare take a shower or walk down the street. And if, when I zoom out the drive on my bicycle, Madmike's evil twin grabs me and tries to rape me, he's in for quite a fight. If I can't stop him, I'll at least put him in the position of having to rape a corpse -- I'm in a nothing-to-lose mood these days and if I can't help myself, at least I'll be ensuring he goes away for even longer when they catch him. Maybe us Hoosier barbarians will even fry him!
But let's not fry the harmless goofballs, freaks and weirdos. Let's not even take 'em downtown or just stop them, demand their papers, search them and their vehicles and if anything is the least bit out of line, nab them for the evildoers they are! That's no way for a free society to function and remain free.
Jeff, are you sure everything you have done and possess will pass muster? No brass-knuckle paperweight in a drawer? Never messed up an IRS form? Nothing at all? Are you certain?
--Herself
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DRZinn
Member
And I can only agree with you that that was wrong. But:
You're missing the distinction. people have been stopped for speeding and then arrested after assaulting police officers. Were they arrested for speeding? Not a perfect analogy, I know, because they were arrested for an act they committed after being stopped, but that's because I'm having a hard time thinking of something that someone could legitimately be arrested for the mere possession of. Still, he was arrested after they found that he was actually breaking the law, not because he looked weird.
The line of reasoning I put forth doesn't support any type of government; I never said the cops weren't wrong, or that the law was right. Only that he was arrested for an act that was, in fact, illegal, and that looking different was not that act.
Poisoned fruit of the poisoned tree, Doc: if the inital stop and search wasn't righteous, then no evidence produced by it can be, either. That's that pesky old Fourth Amendment in action.
Man, what a bother that Bill of Rights junk is! Sure gets in the way of police who are, after all, only following orders.
--Herself
Man, what a bother that Bill of Rights junk is! Sure gets in the way of police who are, after all, only following orders.
--Herself
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