anotherjohndoe
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- Jun 2, 2006
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Dangers of "Mexican Carry".
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never heard of "Mexican Carry"
I carried a S&W mod 66-2 for 25 years with two wide rubber bands wrapped around the grips. If the 4 oclock position means right side/hip, butt forward, stuck in the waistband of my pants, then that was it. Never had the gun fall/get lost. Never forgot what might happen if I did something stupid. Stainless steel, rounded butt, that way of carrying was all pretty much dictated by circumstances too cumbersome to go into. I agree its probably more risky than a good holster. Now I rarely carry, but I think I'd like to use a holster if I could conceal it. But I never heard of "Mexican Carry" until I started perusing these gun sites.
I carried a S&W mod 66-2 for 25 years with two wide rubber bands wrapped around the grips. If the 4 oclock position means right side/hip, butt forward, stuck in the waistband of my pants, then that was it. Never had the gun fall/get lost. Never forgot what might happen if I did something stupid. Stainless steel, rounded butt, that way of carrying was all pretty much dictated by circumstances too cumbersome to go into. I agree its probably more risky than a good holster. Now I rarely carry, but I think I'd like to use a holster if I could conceal it. But I never heard of "Mexican Carry" until I started perusing these gun sites.
Harold Mayo
Member
Oh...sorry. Let me clarify. No doubt by anyone who knows what they're talking about.
I see lots of people jabbering about the carry method but the ones who know what they're talking about have spelled out the facts of the matter fairly calmly and pointed out pros and cons.
I just don't think you've read my responses. You miss the point of what I've said completely as is evidenced by your speaking of complaceny.
To reiterate and clarify, however, the method is used by people in various parts of the world who use a handgun offensively, from surprise and needing great speed. The speed of deployment from concealment when using this method is without equal. I have seen footage of a man using this method to draw a 1911 from total concealment under an untucked shirt, double-tap to the head of a man seated in a parked car and then re-conceal the pistol, all while walking and all done so quickly that you had to be aware of what you were looking at to realize what had happened. The first viewing of the footage was perplexing because no one explained what was going on. The rest of the people on the crowded street in the footage didn't even know what happened.
Complacency? For some people it certainly is. For others it is not. Jeer all you wish. Plenty of people in the world use the method with complete success, have since before you picked up a handgun and will continue to do for a long time in the future.
The best defense is a good offense. The survivors of a close-quarters gunfight are often those who acted most aggressively.
I know the more common opinion here is that well-aimed shots trump pure speed. But one of the "old masters," Col. Fairbairn, said it's literally a matter of the quick and the dead. He said that if you can get the first shot off, even if you miss, you are at a considerable advantage in a gunfight, because at close range the muzzle flash and blast may stun or dazzle an opponent long enough for follow-up shots. He was a big fan of the quick-draw. If you subscribe to that philosophy, Mexican carry with a clip beats any other carry option aside from a completely unconcealed, low-slung OWB holster, like a cowboy quick-draw rig.
I can say from experience that switching to a "Glok Klip" instead of an IWB holster, in exactly the same spot, reduces my draw time by about a quarter second. Re-holstering speed is much slower though.
I know the more common opinion here is that well-aimed shots trump pure speed. But one of the "old masters," Col. Fairbairn, said it's literally a matter of the quick and the dead. He said that if you can get the first shot off, even if you miss, you are at a considerable advantage in a gunfight, because at close range the muzzle flash and blast may stun or dazzle an opponent long enough for follow-up shots. He was a big fan of the quick-draw. If you subscribe to that philosophy, Mexican carry with a clip beats any other carry option aside from a completely unconcealed, low-slung OWB holster, like a cowboy quick-draw rig.
I can say from experience that switching to a "Glok Klip" instead of an IWB holster, in exactly the same spot, reduces my draw time by about a quarter second. Re-holstering speed is much slower though.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
If Mexican Carry allows such a fast presentation, then how come every person who I know and consider to be a high-level, experienced, regular shooter carries his or her pistol in a holster?
For that matter, I sure don't see holsters slowing down all of the IPSC, IDPA, and MultiGun Competitors I've hung out with.
I honestly have a hard time understanding how a carry method that allows the weapon to easily shift out of position*, fall down one's pants**, or easily eject a magazine*** at an inopportune moment could possibly allow one to present a pistol faster than if it had been secured in a well-made, decent-quality holster.
*Had that one happen.
**This one too.
***Yep.
For that matter, I sure don't see holsters slowing down all of the IPSC, IDPA, and MultiGun Competitors I've hung out with.
I honestly have a hard time understanding how a carry method that allows the weapon to easily shift out of position*, fall down one's pants**, or easily eject a magazine*** at an inopportune moment could possibly allow one to present a pistol faster than if it had been secured in a well-made, decent-quality holster.
*Had that one happen.
**This one too.
***Yep.
Roadkill Coyote
Member
- Seeing video of someone quickly drawing and firing without a holster does not prove that he could not have managed the same with a carefully chosen holster, particularly since it was evidently a well chosen moment with suprise on his side. Also, to declare something a sucess, you should be paying attention to the times the technique has failed, as well as its sucesses. Those rarely make cool videos. I'll say it again, expecting that you won't find yourself in a struggle is dangerously complacent. The fact that someone else beat the odds doesn't change that.
- When you have to declare anyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they're talking about, your losing the argument.
Harold Mayo
Member
<sigh>
It is/was a standard technique used by Central and South America organized crime guys and is not an isolated incident. This was taught to me by people who spent years in Latin American countries in among the drug cartels.
Unlike some others, I'm not speaking off the top of my head.
This hearkens back to what I've already said. The guys practicing what I described don't just stick a gun in their pants and hope they gain surprise. They train pretty hard to ensure that they ALWAYS succeed. It's actually a pretty feared thing because it can happen so fast.
You're right. This wasn't a "made-up" or staged video but rather a surveillance tape that just happens to have caught the guy in the act. I just don't think you're understanding what I'm saying...:banghead:
I suppose so, in general. You're still not realizing what I'm saying.:banghead:
And once again, not comprehending what I'm saying...:banghead:
It's a contraction..."you" and "are" equals "you're"...
In addition, I have my information from guys who have "BTDT" and they have great respect for the technique. I've practiced it myself on the range, from both static and dynamic movement scenarios and I know that it beats any of my times from regular concealed carry by a significant degree.
You can disagree all you want, but the facts of the matter remain the same.
Why don't we just agree on you living in your version of reality and I'll live in reality...
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Harold, perhaps people wouldn't scoff at you if you cited some actual sources to back up your claims.
Just sayin'
Just sayin'
Harold Mayo
Member
Yeah, I know, Justin.
PM sent in regard to that.
PM sent in regard to that.
Rumble
Member
Why would it be any faster to draw a gun tucked into your pants, than to draw a gun tucked into what is essentially a pocket inside your waistband?
For instance, I carry a Sig P239 at 4:00 in an open-top IWB holster. Carrying it without a holster still presents essentially the same amount of gun to grab, same positioning of the grip, and so forth. I'm not sure I can see how the presentation could be so much faster as to make the Mexican carry the clear way to go for high-speed presentation and shooting. Can anyone enlighten me? Is it simply a matter that there's less drag on the gun, since clothing doesn't clamp as tightly as a holster?
For instance, I carry a Sig P239 at 4:00 in an open-top IWB holster. Carrying it without a holster still presents essentially the same amount of gun to grab, same positioning of the grip, and so forth. I'm not sure I can see how the presentation could be so much faster as to make the Mexican carry the clear way to go for high-speed presentation and shooting. Can anyone enlighten me? Is it simply a matter that there's less drag on the gun, since clothing doesn't clamp as tightly as a holster?
Roadkill Coyote
Member
You've failed to make your case again, resorted to talking smack about someone you've never met, and tried to score points with a typo. I'm not going to waste time dragging this out. We disagree, and I'm done here.
Harold Mayo
Member
I'm not big on posting any more in this thread but here is your answer:
It's not about drag on the gun and it's faster only if carried in the front at 1 o'clock or so. Carrying without a holster and in the rear or the side is NOT faster.
It's about positioning and the body's natural movements. With an untucked shirt and "Mexican" carry (and assuming a right-handed person), the left hand lifts the covering garment (as opposed to having to sweep one aside), right hand grasps the gun and lifts it out and does with it whatever needs done, whether shooting one-handed or with the left hand meeting the gun and going into a two-handed grip.
I wish I had video of it being done so that those who aren't "getting it" could see what I'm talking about...
It's not about drag on the gun and it's faster only if carried in the front at 1 o'clock or so. Carrying without a holster and in the rear or the side is NOT faster.
It's about positioning and the body's natural movements. With an untucked shirt and "Mexican" carry (and assuming a right-handed person), the left hand lifts the covering garment (as opposed to having to sweep one aside), right hand grasps the gun and lifts it out and does with it whatever needs done, whether shooting one-handed or with the left hand meeting the gun and going into a two-handed grip.
I wish I had video of it being done so that those who aren't "getting it" could see what I'm talking about...
Harold Mayo
Member
Really?
And what have you been doing...?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Draw!
Drawing from concealment from the "Mexican" 1:00 can be done pretty fast...and if Rule 2 is obeyed...just as safely as from any other O'Clock, whether from a holster or tucked under the belt. The one point that hasn't come up is that the speed of the draw relies on two factors. One...the obvious one...is practice beforehand. The other is that the gunman starts on his own signal. Having the initiative and making the first move usually puts the opposition at a great disadvantage, and the initiator of the move starts with his gun hand in position to provide good access to the gun...often in such a subtle way, that..unless you're looking straight at him and know what you're seeing, you'll probably miss it. By the time you...either as the observer or the recipient...realizes what is happening, it's done.
Relate it to the way that a blade man attacks. The first clue you get that he is gonna cut you is when you get cut. Before that, you probably won't even know that he has a knife in his hand. The man with the initiative always has the advantage...and it's hard to beat the drop.
So...I agree that the Mexican 1:00 has a distinct advantage when the gunman is an assassin. The same could be said of any carry position, but with the 1:00, he can make the opening moves more furtively and without giving his intentions away until it's too late for most of us to do anything about it.
Interesting thread, by the way. Pleas, let's keep it civil so it won't get closed.
Drawing from concealment from the "Mexican" 1:00 can be done pretty fast...and if Rule 2 is obeyed...just as safely as from any other O'Clock, whether from a holster or tucked under the belt. The one point that hasn't come up is that the speed of the draw relies on two factors. One...the obvious one...is practice beforehand. The other is that the gunman starts on his own signal. Having the initiative and making the first move usually puts the opposition at a great disadvantage, and the initiator of the move starts with his gun hand in position to provide good access to the gun...often in such a subtle way, that..unless you're looking straight at him and know what you're seeing, you'll probably miss it. By the time you...either as the observer or the recipient...realizes what is happening, it's done.
Relate it to the way that a blade man attacks. The first clue you get that he is gonna cut you is when you get cut. Before that, you probably won't even know that he has a knife in his hand. The man with the initiative always has the advantage...and it's hard to beat the drop.
So...I agree that the Mexican 1:00 has a distinct advantage when the gunman is an assassin. The same could be said of any carry position, but with the 1:00, he can make the opening moves more furtively and without giving his intentions away until it's too late for most of us to do anything about it.
Interesting thread, by the way. Pleas, let's keep it civil so it won't get closed.
Harold Mayo
Member
Yeah, I know. I just don't like something that I know for a FACT being questioned is all. Sorry.
Harold Mayo
Member
Practice is key to anything, of course. Repetition is king for developing speed. These guys that I'm talking about are reputed to spend long periods of time drilling in nothing but drawing and firing singles, double-taps and controlled pairs from that carry method. When I say long periods of time, I'm talking the kind of reps that ingrain something in your muscle memory (like 10,000+). Since I can't cite my source, I won't say what the time from the beginning of the draw stroke to completion of two shots is because no one would believe it (I didn't) but most people would say that it's impossible. It IS impossible as anything but something so ingrained as to be instinctive. It's like a flinch rather than a reasoned response.
To head off anything about the reps making it fast and that the technique itself isn't fast, I've done nowhere NEAR 10,000 reps and I can do it faster than any drawstroke from an OWB holster with NO covering garment even now and I haven't practiced much in terms of handgun skills for nearly a year.
Anyway, it's NOT a good general-purpose carry technique at all. Roadkill Coyote is correct, in general, when he says that it's a sign of complacency because that's exactly what it IS when done by most folks.
It is NOT, however, automatically a sign of a poor gun handler or of someone who doesn't know anything about firearms. In a small percentage of cases, it may be the EXTREME opposite.
I would never advocate this carry method for those who carry for solely for a defensive purpose but it IS a valid, safe and effective carry technique.
To head off anything about the reps making it fast and that the technique itself isn't fast, I've done nowhere NEAR 10,000 reps and I can do it faster than any drawstroke from an OWB holster with NO covering garment even now and I haven't practiced much in terms of handgun skills for nearly a year.
Anyway, it's NOT a good general-purpose carry technique at all. Roadkill Coyote is correct, in general, when he says that it's a sign of complacency because that's exactly what it IS when done by most folks.
It is NOT, however, automatically a sign of a poor gun handler or of someone who doesn't know anything about firearms. In a small percentage of cases, it may be the EXTREME opposite.
I would never advocate this carry method for those who carry for solely for a defensive purpose but it IS a valid, safe and effective carry technique.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
Nadda problemo, Harold...just puttin' out a fire before it conflagged. (Izzat a word?)
I did a little experiment with what we can refer to as "The Mexicali 1" and with a little practice to make the moves fluid...it's fast. With a couple hundred reps, it would be wickedly so. But...to also go to to RC's points as well as your observations...it's not really a good general carry position.
I'd strongly suggest that any who would like to try it and see what conclusions you draw...no pun intended...do it with an empty gun. The
jewels that you save may be your own.
Nadda problemo, Harold...just puttin' out a fire before it conflagged. (Izzat a word?)
I did a little experiment with what we can refer to as "The Mexicali 1" and with a little practice to make the moves fluid...it's fast. With a couple hundred reps, it would be wickedly so. But...to also go to to RC's points as well as your observations...it's not really a good general carry position.
I'd strongly suggest that any who would like to try it and see what conclusions you draw...no pun intended...do it with an empty gun. The
jewels that you save may be your own.
NineseveN
member
Oddly enough, I agree with Harold Mayo on this one only because I think I get what he's saying. The method he is talking about is an initiative move, it's offensive in nature and it is very fluid. The dynamics of the draw and removing the cover garment are very conducive to speed in anything but a static environment.
The reason this doesn't work in competition is that we're generally not talking the same environment and distances (i.e. 15-20 feet and less versus how many yards?) and you rarely see perfect competition form (no weaver or assoc, we're talking distances and environments that negate the application of certain stances simply because they're not needed).
A Kydex OWN with a stiff cover garment worn at the right height is very fast on the initiative, but it's not quite as natural unless we're shooting from the hip. The only way I can think to illustrate that is how Tom Cruise dispatches the "homie" in the briefcase scene in Collateral (a double tap hip shot a less then three feet I believe it was then squaring to the next target and moving on). With the mexicarry method, the way I have seen it accomplished is for the body to lower slightly towards the gun (almost in a crunch, but not extreme enough to call it that) while bringing the gun on to the target which makes for a very quick delivery.
The other initiative stance that is faster than most would care to admit is a horizontal shoulder rig being drawn into a modified weaver tight against the body for close proximity targets. The shooter would start with the strong hand towards or preferably gripping the gun as if they're going for their wallet or looking for a pen or maybe adjusting their shirt buttons. Once the shooter wishes to engage the target the draw only requires about 6 to 8 inches of travel to be into a tight modified weaver and on target, which takes a fraction of what a traditional holster draw from the 4:00 position would.
The mexicarry is not a great day to day carry method under most conditions, especially for defensive uses, but it can still be used in a pinch with little to no set-up time, provided the user is aware what they're doing.
The shoulder rig system is better for every day carry, except that in a defensive position where the hands are not already on or near the gun normally, the shooter is at a disadvantage as compared to if they were carrying in a holster at 4:00 unless they're sitting.
But, I have found uses for all of these methods, I try not to be the kind of plumber that only has one plunger when the poo clogs the commode.
The reason this doesn't work in competition is that we're generally not talking the same environment and distances (i.e. 15-20 feet and less versus how many yards?) and you rarely see perfect competition form (no weaver or assoc, we're talking distances and environments that negate the application of certain stances simply because they're not needed).
A Kydex OWN with a stiff cover garment worn at the right height is very fast on the initiative, but it's not quite as natural unless we're shooting from the hip. The only way I can think to illustrate that is how Tom Cruise dispatches the "homie" in the briefcase scene in Collateral (a double tap hip shot a less then three feet I believe it was then squaring to the next target and moving on). With the mexicarry method, the way I have seen it accomplished is for the body to lower slightly towards the gun (almost in a crunch, but not extreme enough to call it that) while bringing the gun on to the target which makes for a very quick delivery.
The other initiative stance that is faster than most would care to admit is a horizontal shoulder rig being drawn into a modified weaver tight against the body for close proximity targets. The shooter would start with the strong hand towards or preferably gripping the gun as if they're going for their wallet or looking for a pen or maybe adjusting their shirt buttons. Once the shooter wishes to engage the target the draw only requires about 6 to 8 inches of travel to be into a tight modified weaver and on target, which takes a fraction of what a traditional holster draw from the 4:00 position would.
The mexicarry is not a great day to day carry method under most conditions, especially for defensive uses, but it can still be used in a pinch with little to no set-up time, provided the user is aware what they're doing.
The shoulder rig system is better for every day carry, except that in a defensive position where the hands are not already on or near the gun normally, the shooter is at a disadvantage as compared to if they were carrying in a holster at 4:00 unless they're sitting.
But, I have found uses for all of these methods, I try not to be the kind of plumber that only has one plunger when the poo clogs the commode.
redneckrepairs
Member
- Joined
- May 3, 2005
- Messages
- 1,117
gunkid reencarnated ?
Try comparing an IWB holster suitable for concealed carry to the rigs that competitors typically use. Most of those competition rigs I've seen don't hold the gun very securely at all, and usually have huge cutouts from the top so that the gun doesn't need to be pulled all the way out before it can be swung up.
That, btw, is the main advantage to "Mexican" carry behind or on the hip. With a holster, you must pull the gun completely out of the holster before rotating it up. With a clip, you only need to pull enough that the muzzle can make it out of your pants as you swing the gun up.
"I knew a dumbass once who carried a s&w model 10 down with the boys and in case you didn't know, nut sweat is extreamly harsh on the finish of a gun (I think it is rather acidic, which would explain why underwear gets holes down there)"
Hmmm, you know underwear does need to thown away at some point don't you? I think when you start to see holes, it is a sign to replace them. Kind of like the car tires.
Hmmm, you know underwear does need to thown away at some point don't you? I think when you start to see holes, it is a sign to replace them. Kind of like the car tires.
Treylis
Member
Frankly, I think that carrying a gun that's not in some kind of holster that covers the trigger guard is simply irrational, and I'm not going to bother wasting my time arguing with anyone who doesn't accept that at face value.
Harold Mayo
Member
Reality is what is.
Harold Mayo
Member
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