"We Were Soldiers" accuracy question

Up until the time I arrived on the scene, 1968-69, we ran across Japanese rifles, French and American. I would venture a guess that in the early 50's there were a lot more French.

A thought would be that Russia was supplying the V.C. with SKS's in the early 50"s?

By the way an excellent movie for realism.

Movie was accurate with one glaring exception--the end where the chopper mows down the entire VC force in a few seconds.

Don't know why they did that to an otherwise faithful movie.

During the French/Indochinese war (aka france trying to cram the colonial lid back on), the Viet minh tended to be armed with whatever they could get their hands on japanese, french, german, crossbows, whatever was available.

the depiction of the ambush against the french (was that supposed to be Groupe Mobile 100??) probably shows them armed with SKSes b/c that was the easiest thing to do, since they were already bringing in SKSes, and AKs for "enemy rifles" they could reuse the older looking rifles for the french ambush.

Was it the same studio that did Enemy at the Gates? If so, then you'd think they'd at least have a bunch of Mosins laying around...

I agree, though, that the Viet Minh would have most likely been armed mostly with French and Japanese weapons.

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Don't know why they did that to an otherwise faithful movie.
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I think they needed a climactic Hollywood ending to let the moviegoers know that the battle was won.

The eventuality of simply forcing the enemy to witdraw from his staging area and cancel his planned major offensive amounts to a big victory in real life, but in movie terms it is somewhat anticlimactic.

Despite being one of Mel Gibsons newer efforts, I really enjoyed this movie. Lot's of action. It portrayed a very human enemy, as well as the devastating and demoralising effect of napalm (Especially when it's friendly fire!).





Bloody Gibson.......

First thing to remember is that IT'S A FREAKING MOVIE.

Read the book, much better.

DM

It is quite possible that there were Russian SKSs in Vietnam during 1954. The Russians built a second manufacturing plant in 1953 (Izhevsk) and jacked up production, only to halt production of all SKSs in 1955. They were supplying SKSs to all of the other Soviet Block countries, so there is no reason they didn't send any to Chairman Ho. Of course, they probably used Chinese SKSs in the movie thinking no one could tell the difference.

A side note not commonly known is that North Vietnam actually produced their own version of the SKS in the early 60s. The numbers were small as Chinese SKSs were readily available and Russia never licensed Vietnam to make SKSs.

I have a friend who was an Assistant Machine Gunner in that unit, in that battle and he said it was essentially accurate with some Hollywoodisms. One being the Command First Sergeant. The real one was NOTHING like the Hollywood version and NO ONE would be so foolish as to be stomping around upright with any sort of weapon, let alone a pistol. MY friend was wounded in the hip during the hot part of a firefight, he felt the impact and felt warm fluid running down his leg. but could'nt take time to examine the wound. When things calmed down he asked the Machine Gunner, fearfully, to examine the wound. The machine gunner looked and told him, "It's BAAAD man, they got you right in the canteen."

The Chinese and Ruissian began supplying the North VN in 1950
Most of what the Chinese initially sent was American made stuff taken from Chiang Kai-shek
The Soviets would have been sending AK and SKS rifles

with some Hollywoodisms. One being the Command First Sergeant. The real one was NOTHING like the Hollywood version

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strangely, i've always gotten the impression that the hollywood version was only a slight caricature of Plumley. straight, mater of fact, didn't take no Sh*$, and not so much feared as respected for what he'd already been through, and his leadership ability as a senior NCO.

it's hard to show that type of person, or at least to show it in contrast to the run of the mill soldier, in a 2 hour movie, except by doing the kind of "standing up in the middle of the firefight" and similar scenes. known facts: Plumley DID spurn an M-16 when they were issued, saying something to the effect of "if i need one plenty will be laying around to pick up" to Col Moore, and that the other line that many think is complete hollywod were witnessed, "Gentlemen prepare to defend yourselves" is remembered by Joe Galloway as legit.

then again i personally have only met two me who survived the fight at LZ X-ray, and those meetings were after I'd read the book, a number of years before the movie ever came out and i've not spoken to any who "were there" since the movie.

In 1954 the Russians were still producing SKS rifles for their own forces. It was a front line weapon, not yet ready to be replaced with the AK-47. They would not have exported rifles or the production machinery for them in large numbers to Asian countries. It should be remembered that Russia and China have considered each other rivals for a long time. Any country in the oriental sphere of influence would not have received first consideration with front line weapons. Even after the war geared up in the 1960's, the majority of small arms provided by the communists were Chinese, rather then Russian.

All of the photographs I have seen of the Vietminh in the early 1950's Indochina were armed with old bolt action rifles. A few were armed with M1 Garands and M1 carbines. Oddly, the most common weapon seemed to be various makes and models of Mauser M98, rather then Russian weapons. There was an abundance of Mosin-Nagants though. Also some Lee-Enfields and Arisaka's.

mp510,
Been a while since I've seen the flic. Just curious as to what you noticed about the SKS rifles, that got you wondering .... 'spike' vs. blade bayonets?

"History vs Hollywood"

Around the time that "We Were Soldiers" was appearing in theaters, the History Channel was running a segment about it on their "History vs Hollywood" program. They assembled nine (?) veterans of the battle who had seen the premier. The basic question to them was, as the program title implies, was "We Were Soldiers" 'history' or 'Hollywood'? Almost all of them rated it about 80% history and 20% Hollywood. Most commented about the 20% that "they have to sell tickets" to the movies so kind of excused it. They especially remarked that the last scenes were "Hollywood". Several commented that Sam Elliot "had Sgt. Major Plumley 'down to a T". The strongest complaint related to the relief of the cut-off platoon. One veteran emphatically stated that Sgt. Savage had his position well organized when relieved.

I wondered about the weapons of the Viet Minh against the French too but directors tend to want lots of shooting and bolt-actions aren't "spectacular". If you get the DVD of the movie, be sure to watch the 'making of' featurette. It explains how they had a hard time finding enough M16s of the right model for the soldiers. It also shows how several veterans of the fight and surviving family members attended the filming of several scenes. There is also a section of 'deleted scenes' that didn't make the final cut but are worth watching. Of course if you have read the book, you know that the movie was only half the story.

I love the movie, I will have to read the book. I don't purchase many DVD's only those worth having and this is a definite buy! Thanks for the history lesson. Very interesting!!!

The perception of an individual soldier is sometimes the worst to determine the overall aspect of a combat action. Its hard to get an overall view when all you see is the twenty yards immedialtely around you and only ten inches vertically at that. Check out SAL Marshall's books. He started the immediate after action interviews process with soldiers. By this method he was able to piece together the correct sequence of a battle. I liked the movie except for the ending. That part was BS.

rk

One being the Command First Sergeant.

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What's a Command First Sergeant?

What's a Command First Sergeant?

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We're talking the highest E-9 non-com.

Guys, there is a First Sergeant who is an E-8. Next is a Sergeant Major who is an E-9. Above that is a Command Sergeant Major who is also an E-9. Plumley should have been a CSM but could have been a SGM. It depends on the organizational set up.

rk

At the time of Ia-Drang the rank of CSM did not exist, therefore Plumley was a Sergeant major at the time, but a very senior one. and i beleive he was also one of the first batch of SMs promoted to the new rank when it was created in '69

The DVD has two really good deleted scenes that should have made the movie. The scene where some of the soldiers are out hunting, and the scene where the guy comes back wearing his birthday suite. I can't believe that they didn't make it!

I highly suggest you watch them.

So there's no such animal as a CFS? In any case, when he said "Jump!" enlisted pukes and frightened little butter-bars said, "How high, Sergeant Major?!"

and the scene where the guy comes back wearing his birthday suite.

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well you know.... they couldn't have the best line in the movie be "Naw that was Muldoon be HE was afraid of Plumley!"

Off topic a bit one of my old teachers knew the guy who wrote the story when It was coming out the guy who wrote it called my teacher Mr. Wrinkle and told him he had put a small part of him in it. I dont rember what part of the movie in but the blonde kid with thick GI spec glasses working on or carrying the radio is him and it looks exactly like him from his slides of vietnam he took. It only last 5 seconds but he was in it.