Any reason HST or SXT rounds would defeat ballistic vests easier?

Eisande · Jun 10, 2006

An LE agency I am familiar with is testing out some new level 3A vests for their swat entry team. They asked for some sample panels to shoot for testing and evaluation. When the reps heard that some of the rounds to be shot included the Ranger SXT (the new/improved "black talon") they said that this round was a "anomaly" and had a 50% chance of penetrating. Another manufacturer said something similiar about the Federal HST round.

I was under the impression that the greatest factor for penetrating vests was velocity combined with hardness of the projectile..?

Do you folks have any suggestiongs on this issue? I have tried to find research from NIJ and others on these rounds but no luck.

edit: i am talking 9mm caliber

benEzra · Jun 10, 2006

None whatsoever. The "Black Talon" = armor piercing was an urban legend that originated in confused Bradyite rantings and got spread around by the ignorant. Had nothing to do with any extra penetration capability; rather, some ignorant reporter somewhere called the Black Talon a "cop-killer" round, and someone else thought "cop-killer" meant "armor-piercing," and an urban legend was born.

HST/SXT/BT rounds are no more likely to penetrate a vest rated to stop 9mm than any other 9mm JHP would be. Since even NIJ Level IIA is rated for 9mm, and that's two steps below IIIA (IIA, II, IIIA, III, IV), 9mm isn't a very rigorous test of a IIIA vest at all. IIIA is rated to stop .44 magnum, isn't it?

Third_Rail · Jun 10, 2006

Even the companies that make the vests got fooled by the antis. Sad.

Eisande · Jun 10, 2006

Yeah, I figured as much. I am suprised that ballistic armor reps would not be more clear on this issue. Some folks suggested that the "cutting petals" of the SXT round would somehow penetrate more...I wasn't convinced on that one either.

Any of you out there have a "Friend of a friend" who works for a body armor company and would like to comment?

lbmii · Jun 10, 2006

Rounds like the SXT have a jacket that is folded over and then down into the hollow point. When they hit something pretty solid the jacket will often collapse inward rather than expand outward. They can sometimes behave similar to a FMJ.

nfl1990 · Jun 10, 2006

Wouldn't a standard FMJ penetrate far better than an evil HP or JHP.

lbmii · Jun 10, 2006

It does make one wonder about that particular brand of vest.

Eisande · Jun 10, 2006

Re: FMJ vs. JHP, that's what I thought too, I figured that the hollow point would be EASIER to stop because it would expand more dramatically than a FMJ.

The issue of the hollowpoint folding inward is maybe what they are alluding to, but no one came out specifically and said that.

Good point about the .44mag and of course it does lead one to be a bit dubious about the manufacturer.

benEzra · Jun 11, 2006

Yeah, I figured as much. I am suprised that ballistic armor reps would not be more clear on this issue. Some folks suggested that the "cutting petals" of the SXT round would somehow penetrate more...I wasn't convinced on that one either.

It is my understanding that the petals would only open if the bullet were expanding while traversing a fluid medium. If the bullet is unexpanded when it hits the vest, it will just crush the nose and flatten out rather than expanding in the regular sense.

BTW, when Winchester redesigned the Black Talon into the current Ranger SXT, they deleted the sharp-edged petals on expansion by modifying the reverse-tapered jacket, so the current Ranger SXT or whatever it's called doesn't have any sharp edges when it expands (at least no more than any other JHP).

Azrael256 · Jun 11, 2006

someone else thought "cop-killer" meant "armor-piercing

Oh, don't forget teflon. If you coat a black talon with teflon, it will go through two oil drums and rip a cop in half. You can even shoot it through a dozer blade. I saw it in a movie once.

dfaugh · Jun 11, 2006

One factor no one mentioned:

Many, if not most, of the "Black Talon" and later the SXT rounds were +P+ ammo, and had a significanlty higher velocity. Might make a difference, I don't know.

P0832177 · Jun 11, 2006

Took about two seconds for me to find this! http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/189633.pdf

Manedwolf · Jun 11, 2006

As far as I'd heard, the only commonly-available pistol round likely to defeat a type III vest and do damage would be 7.62x25 ball, as from a Tokarev or CZ-52. Is that correct?

And shh, they've not banned those. Yet.

Eisande · Jun 11, 2006

P0832177: that is a great guide and I will forward it to my friend who is making the purchase for his dept, though (of course) it doesn't address specific ammunition questions.

dfaugh: another good point in regards to the +p+ issue, I will have to find out how much faster the rounds are because of this. But wouldn't stuff like winchester 115gr gold dot then be just as effective?

asknight · Jun 11, 2006

All of the original Black Talon ammo I have ever used was standard velocity fodder. I'm not certain that a majority of it was +P+ (not a standard), due to how popular it was. But then again, Double Tap and others are extremely popular, and they aren't adhering to pressure standards too closely either.

10 Ring Tao · Jun 12, 2006

Thats just silly.

Anyone who knows anything about how JHPs are made, know that they'll flatten out easier than other bullet types.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

Any reason HST or SXT rounds would defeat ballistic vests easier?

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