Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!

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I agree with the Doc. Nothing like 00 or 000 buckshot from a 12 gauge to make them regret they were ever born.
Even better are sabot slugs. Instant bad guy ventilation. But there is the obvious risk of over-penetration.
 
Real life experience? The guy only sees corpses, and long after the action is over. I'm just sayin' ... ;)
 
In two words: shot placement.

In a dozen words or less: caliber makes no difference, shot placement is everything.
 
Lou...

If caliber makes no difference, I'm guessing that you carry a .25 acp. If not, why not?

Biker
 
I am a die-hard .45ACP/1911 guy, but a whole box full of poorly aimed .45ACP can't do what a couple well aimed 9x19mm can. To each his own, (I do prefer .45ACP, after all,) but I wouldn't feel underarmed with a decent pistol chambered in +P JHP 9mm. There is anecdotal evidence of folks surviving .45ACP as well. But that doesn't make THAT round "Not enough gun."

If you are that worried about using enough gun, maybe a Carbon-15 or something chambered in .308 would be better. Folks have defended themselves sucessfully with smaller calibres than parabellum. Just carry what makes you feel comfy, and make sure you get good shot placement.
 
Biker...

A hint as to my favored choice can be found in my sig. line, lol.
When it comes right down to it, it just never really bothered me all that much though, because the first rule of a gunfight is to bring one. When i had my ccw back in PA, i regularly alternated the 9 with a .22. I suppose that had as much to do with my perceived chances of actually needing either of them, which i never did, but either one would be enough.
 
you can argue shot placement all you want but the only place you are guaranteed to have time for a perfect shot is at the range. I want to know my choice will stop the threat or at least slow them enough for a second shot regardless of if I hit them in the heart or in the shoulder. I trust rounds like .357 magnum and .45 ACP to do that. I simply don't trust 9 mm to reliably do that. Is it better then nothing? Most certainly and I wouldn't be above carrying one I'm not a snob. But I will prefer .45 any day over 9 mm. Shot placement is good, but I don't want to have to rely on perfect or near perfect shot placement. I want as large a margin of error as is practical.
 
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about, as he doesn't say anything to the affect of what the title states.

Again, this is from experience that I've made my calls on what works and what doesn't. I have no use for mouse guns like the .32, although it's a lot better to have a mouse gun than nothing at all. Personally, I'll never carry anything smaller than a .40 and prefer the .45. Day in and day out, results from the autopsy table show me that the .45 is the gun to have in a gun fight, provided you can shoot it well. If not, it's better to have something you can shoot well, even if it's a mouse gun, than something you can't.

That said, shoot what you're comfortable with and place your shots well whatever caliber you use.

He prefers .45, but keeps in line with the big picture by saying that caliber doesn't matter anywhere near as much as your ability to make well placed shots with the largest caliber you can handle.
 
People can debate which caliber is better all they want, but this summed it all up for me:
Folks, we can continue this thread until the next millennium and beat around calibers, bullet construction, velocity, muzzle flash, and a zillion other variables. Sooner or later you'll have to make up your mind on what you think works and carry it. When the dust settles and we've made up our minds on what we'll carry, I think we'd see that there won't be a concensus of opinion. The one thing I hope we'd agree on, however, is that the best man-stopper in the world is absolutely useless in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it effectively.

Make every trip to the range count. Learn to shoot effectively; learn to call your shots. Learn how fast and how effectively you can place that second and subsequent shots. For those of you with non-adjustable sights, learn which ammo places your shots closest to the x-ring. Learn proper trigger control and proper sight pictures. Learn how to reload quickly and effectively.
 
On the other hand, the U.S. is the handgun murder capitol of the world and the weapon of choice among most thugs is a 9mm. They may not have a lot of instant knockdown power, but they've got plenty of killing power. I'll take a .40 over a 9mm anyday, but don't underestimate a 9 with quality ammo.
 
A 9mm is sufficient for dealing with bad guys. Many folks still use .38 Special loads for the baddies (As will I, once I get my CCW). I think a 9mm does a nice job of dealing with two legged threats.

In saying that, I also believe a 10mm/.357/.45 ACP does a better job.
 
I have read ad nauseam that caliber choice is irrelevant and shot placement is all that counts. Ok, there is not doubt that shot placement is crucial for any handgun. So we all need to go to the range and practice as much as possible.

Now, please indulge me for a moment. We can all equally hit COM reliably at the range. We are unfortunately faced with a BG who is threating our life with the weapon of your imagination.

In front of you lies a 1) .25auto 2) 9mm 3) .40 or .357sig 4) 45auto or 10mm.

We have all faithfully been to the range and can consistently hit COM at the range with whichever of the above that we carry. Given that only 33% of LEOs hit their targets under catecholamine surge, we can only reasonably expect that we could do no better. So we will likely only get 1 or maybe 2 rounds COM with a 33% hit rate, so the hit(s) have to count.

Which round will you choose?
 
Given the choices listed, mine would be the round from the gun i can get the most accurate results from, am most comfortable shooting and which i have had the most experience with. In my case that would be either my BHP or Beretta 92, 9mm's both. At 33% that should give me 5 COM hits with 15 round mags, but i think i could do better than that.
 
This reminds me of 2nd grade--My Daddy's bigger 'n' your Daddy. No he ain't!

Well, my Daddy bigger 'n' uglier! And so's my momma! Lordy sakes alive fellas. A dead intruder is a dead intruder. Shoot what you will, and be danged accurate with it. What more needs saying?

Next thing you know someone will say Kimber 45s aren't as good as Colt 45s.

That ought to get them going.

Doc2005
 
Guys, I hate to tell you this but ALL handgun calibers can be ineffective even with good defensive rounds and proper shot placement.

1) If any of y'all wish to visit Sardis, Georgia with me, we can go talk to a man who resisted arrest by a Sardis PD officer. He was getting the upper hand in the scuffle. Bad move. Officer shot him in the face with a .357 from a distance of about two feet. The bullet entered just to the left of dummy's nose heading for the back of his head. Stopped just short of the carotid artery.

2)19 year old female walked into the emergency department where I work. She had been shot by some thug in the same place as the man above. 9mm JHP. About two feet. After being shot, she walked over a half mile to the hospital.


In a dozen words or less: caliber makes no difference, shot placement is everything.

Another man came into the emergency department after being shot from very close range. The bullet knocked his front tooth out and was found by the paramedic where he had been standing. .32 ACP. Care to argue that caliber made no difference to him or that, with a different caliber, that would have been completely proper shot placement?

My Dad's first cousin had a girl friend for about ten years and then things got hinky. She told him not to come around any more. He didn't listen. He drove out to her home and she wouldn't let him in. So he proceeded to break through the screen door. Hester proceeded to shoot him in the sternum with a .38 Special. The scar is right on the nipple line. The bullet exited about an inch from the vertebral column. Jim looked down at the hole in his chest and decided that she had been serious about not wanting to see him, after all. He walked to his car and drove fifteen miles to the hospital where he caused no amount of excitement. NOTHING had been hit in his chest with a perfect COM hit with a JHP...I checked with Hester. Jim's doing fine but he stays home with his wife nowadays.

For primary carry, I'd feel adequate with a .38 Special or larger. If I had to use it for defense, I'd remember All of the reasons repeating handguns were developed. 1) There might be more than one of the scoundrels. 2) You might just miss. 3) Sometimes, there ain't but one, you don't miss, and he don't stop.

I've seen more hits with major calibers and good placement that didn't stop the man shot. I've seen a guy who shot himself in the mouth just before coming out of his house to be arrested by the cops. After three days in jail, he pipes up with,"Oh, by the way, I shot myself in the mouth just before coming out to meet you guys the other day." Jailer looks in his mouth. Big clot in the roof of it. Since it's been three days and they feel it must have a defective bullet, they bring him 38 miles to MCG in Augusta by squad car. He walks into Trauma (he is developing a slight limp). We wheel him up to Radiology where he gets off the gurney and onto the CT table. People, he had fragments of bullet throughout his cranium. Not only was he mobile immediately after being shot with at least a .38 Special in the brain but he was still capable of just about anything he ever was three days later. I've had worse limps from twisting my ankle.
 
If caliber doesn't matter I don't care if a BG shoots me in the chest with a .22 or his 50bmg. It should basically be the same right? I mean, maybe the 50 will sound louder, but since caliber doesn't matter considering damage done, I shouldn't be anymore scared of a guy rollin up on me with his ma duece than with his 22 pistol.
 
He keeps contradicting himself.

I'll take slow and heavy to light and fast any day.

Anyway, the kinetic energy imparted by a bullet as it enters the body depends on two things--the weight of the bullet and the velocity at which it is travelling. Of the two, velocity is more important. Doubling the velocity quadruples the kinetic energy; doubling the bullet weight only doubles
 
Oh wait, are we talking handgun calibers? Gee darnit. 50ae Then. You can say extremely similar calibers depend more on shot placement but in all seriousness if different calibers didn't make any difference we'd all be shooting the same thing.
 
Deadmeat2 smells of troll.

He's got one hell of a pedigree for a troll...
 
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