Rick_Eabos
Member
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Latest in the Front Sight wars
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Valkman
Member
That guy always has given me the willy's. People always say good things about the classes out there but the rest of it always seemed like a shell game and all the stuff that was "supposed to be" never materialized. A RICO suit, eh? 
Jim March
Member
You know...the cost structures, the "free intros" to get people hooked, the bizarre ethics involves...doesn't it all remind you of something else? Something related to Tom Cruise, a certain dead science fiction writer...the Super Adventure Club...
Once again we will have a thead full of people who have never been there, giving us their uninformed opinions on it. Don and Jim, you have broken the ice. Let the BS begin.
We as gun owners really need to bring this guy down. Anyone that teaches several hundred new shooters how to handle a gun every month is someone that needs to fail.
We as gun owners really need to bring this guy down. Anyone that teaches several hundred new shooters how to handle a gun every month is someone that needs to fail.
JohnBT
Member
Gosh, I just don't know who to believe.
For those attempting to keep an open mind, the following article is an interesting read.
John
________________________________________________________________
www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/2005/11/25/news/frontsight.html
November 25, 2005
Others come forward in Front Sight litigation
By GINA B. GOOD
Editor's note: This is the second installment of our ongoing series on Front Sight. The owners of the firearms training facility and residential subdivision are the targets of a class-action lawsuit.
A home on the range in an upscale resort sounds good.
For firearms enthusiasts offered a home-site complete with a state-of-the-art shooting facility, it sounds even better.
Add a lifetime of professional instruction - with free shooting, hunting and martial arts classes - and that's a dream come true.
But like the old adage says, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. A class action lawsuit filed against Front Sight Nov. 7 alleges that the organization used false and misleading statements in order to sell memberships.
From Front Sight's earliest days in 1998, the organization's president, former chiropractor Dr. Ignatius Piazza, sold firearms training and the prospect of living in a gated community on the grounds of Front Sight, which he deemed would become "The safest community in America."
The unique concept of a community based on firearms training keeps Front Sight in the news.
In fact, Piazza's mastery of marketing has netted worldwide recognition for Front Sight with television coverage, as well as newspaper and magazine articles appearing throughout the U.S. and Europe.
Piazza's offer to train commercial pilots after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001 resulted in mentions in the Washington Post, World Net Daily and on CNN.
While students grumble about the seemingly endless mailings and special offers generated from Front Sight, few, if any, question the validity of the facility's firearms training.
However, Piazza's frequent mailer program could lead to his downfall, according to litigants. He has reportedly made a lot of promises in writing.
In an Associated Press article dated April 26, 1999 reporter Angie Wagner wrote: '"Piazza expects Front Sight's first phase completed by year's end. New residents will be welcome by the end of 2000, he says."'
To date, only a security guard and a firearms instructor live on-site, in recreational vehicles.
In July 2002, a mailer sent to students from Front Sight read, "Electricity and water supply was completed some time ago, so we are now beginning the development of all underground utilities and sewer to be completed on phase one of the facility before the fall courses."
The flyer further stated: "Yes, this means real bathrooms - about 20 separate, multi stall bathroom buildings!"
Three years after receiving that notification, students in 2005 are still using portable toilets supplied and serviced by Joe's Sanitation of Pahrump. They are kept clean and well equipped, but they are a far cry from the promised "real bathrooms."
Pahrump Sanitation, the company originally supplying portable toilets to the firing ranges, removed its equipment after Front Sight fell substantially behind in payments for rental and servicing fees.
With hundreds of students attending classes on a weekly basis, Pahrump Sanitation owner Phil Hibdon had purchased a number of new portable toilets to place near the ranges and classroom areas. The facility required more than 20 units on a permanent basis.
"I did a lot of things for them," Hibdon said. "It's a long story. They owed me $20,000 and after about six months I got fed up with them."
Eventually, Hibdon prevailed and was paid. "I thought I better get out while I was ahead," he said, explaining why he removed his equipment.
Four former Front Sight construction workers who live in Pahrump asked not to be identified at this time; however, they say it is true the water and sewer lines were trenched and pipes were installed. However, they maintain Piazza could not - or would not - come up with the funds to finish either job.
One of the men also revealed another obstacle that must be addressed before flush toilets could be installed. An engineering soil report found the site slated for a septic tank and leach field was not acceptable due to tough ground conditions.
The former employees further allege waterlines underneath phase one have never been connected to the facility's well. To this day, water coolers used on the ranges during classes are filled from a water hose connected to the well. It is the same water used to fill the facility's water truck for dust suppression.
The men claimed no sand or other bedding material was placed under the water or sewer pipes and allege the fire hydrant in front of the impressive 8,300 square foot classroom has never been hooked up to the well.
The State Fire Marshal's Office has not yet commented on the fire hydrant, but a spokesman did say the classroom - which is currently in use - has not been issued a certificate of occupancy.
The flyer was correct in saying electricity had been extended to the facility. The construction office and classroom, as well as most ranges have power, although the outdoor lighting for night classes is run on gas-powered generators.
In addition to announcing electricity, water and real bathrooms, the July 11, 2002 mailing from Piazza to members announced the beginning of construction of phase two and development of roads into phase three, where home parcels had been assigned to platinum members.
Pete Wallace of Pahrump, a former employee who ran the bulldozer and grader on the construction crew, said there is only one roughly graded road into the home sites.
More than three years ago, KLAS TV in Las Vegas aired a two-part feature on Front Sight. The Eye Witness news team reported: "...in two to three years, this will be home to hundreds. There will be homes, a shopping center, even a K through 12 school."
There is no sign of water being brought into phase three. No lots are graded. Former staff members, at least one of whom is part of the class represented in the federal lawsuit, say a wastewater treatment plant must be built, yet they wonder if talks have been initiated with the Public Utilities Commission.
Adding to the confusion, information on Front Sight's Web site this week includes a statement beginning with these words: "When Phase 1 is completed later this year ..."
Editor's note: The class action lawsuit filed against Front Sight Firearms can be accessed online at www.frontsightlitigation.com.
For those attempting to keep an open mind, the following article is an interesting read.
John
________________________________________________________________
www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/2005/11/25/news/frontsight.html
November 25, 2005
Others come forward in Front Sight litigation
By GINA B. GOOD
Editor's note: This is the second installment of our ongoing series on Front Sight. The owners of the firearms training facility and residential subdivision are the targets of a class-action lawsuit.
A home on the range in an upscale resort sounds good.
For firearms enthusiasts offered a home-site complete with a state-of-the-art shooting facility, it sounds even better.
Add a lifetime of professional instruction - with free shooting, hunting and martial arts classes - and that's a dream come true.
But like the old adage says, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. A class action lawsuit filed against Front Sight Nov. 7 alleges that the organization used false and misleading statements in order to sell memberships.
From Front Sight's earliest days in 1998, the organization's president, former chiropractor Dr. Ignatius Piazza, sold firearms training and the prospect of living in a gated community on the grounds of Front Sight, which he deemed would become "The safest community in America."
The unique concept of a community based on firearms training keeps Front Sight in the news.
In fact, Piazza's mastery of marketing has netted worldwide recognition for Front Sight with television coverage, as well as newspaper and magazine articles appearing throughout the U.S. and Europe.
Piazza's offer to train commercial pilots after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in 2001 resulted in mentions in the Washington Post, World Net Daily and on CNN.
While students grumble about the seemingly endless mailings and special offers generated from Front Sight, few, if any, question the validity of the facility's firearms training.
However, Piazza's frequent mailer program could lead to his downfall, according to litigants. He has reportedly made a lot of promises in writing.
In an Associated Press article dated April 26, 1999 reporter Angie Wagner wrote: '"Piazza expects Front Sight's first phase completed by year's end. New residents will be welcome by the end of 2000, he says."'
To date, only a security guard and a firearms instructor live on-site, in recreational vehicles.
In July 2002, a mailer sent to students from Front Sight read, "Electricity and water supply was completed some time ago, so we are now beginning the development of all underground utilities and sewer to be completed on phase one of the facility before the fall courses."
The flyer further stated: "Yes, this means real bathrooms - about 20 separate, multi stall bathroom buildings!"
Three years after receiving that notification, students in 2005 are still using portable toilets supplied and serviced by Joe's Sanitation of Pahrump. They are kept clean and well equipped, but they are a far cry from the promised "real bathrooms."
Pahrump Sanitation, the company originally supplying portable toilets to the firing ranges, removed its equipment after Front Sight fell substantially behind in payments for rental and servicing fees.
With hundreds of students attending classes on a weekly basis, Pahrump Sanitation owner Phil Hibdon had purchased a number of new portable toilets to place near the ranges and classroom areas. The facility required more than 20 units on a permanent basis.
"I did a lot of things for them," Hibdon said. "It's a long story. They owed me $20,000 and after about six months I got fed up with them."
Eventually, Hibdon prevailed and was paid. "I thought I better get out while I was ahead," he said, explaining why he removed his equipment.
Four former Front Sight construction workers who live in Pahrump asked not to be identified at this time; however, they say it is true the water and sewer lines were trenched and pipes were installed. However, they maintain Piazza could not - or would not - come up with the funds to finish either job.
One of the men also revealed another obstacle that must be addressed before flush toilets could be installed. An engineering soil report found the site slated for a septic tank and leach field was not acceptable due to tough ground conditions.
The former employees further allege waterlines underneath phase one have never been connected to the facility's well. To this day, water coolers used on the ranges during classes are filled from a water hose connected to the well. It is the same water used to fill the facility's water truck for dust suppression.
The men claimed no sand or other bedding material was placed under the water or sewer pipes and allege the fire hydrant in front of the impressive 8,300 square foot classroom has never been hooked up to the well.
The State Fire Marshal's Office has not yet commented on the fire hydrant, but a spokesman did say the classroom - which is currently in use - has not been issued a certificate of occupancy.
The flyer was correct in saying electricity had been extended to the facility. The construction office and classroom, as well as most ranges have power, although the outdoor lighting for night classes is run on gas-powered generators.
In addition to announcing electricity, water and real bathrooms, the July 11, 2002 mailing from Piazza to members announced the beginning of construction of phase two and development of roads into phase three, where home parcels had been assigned to platinum members.
Pete Wallace of Pahrump, a former employee who ran the bulldozer and grader on the construction crew, said there is only one roughly graded road into the home sites.
More than three years ago, KLAS TV in Las Vegas aired a two-part feature on Front Sight. The Eye Witness news team reported: "...in two to three years, this will be home to hundreds. There will be homes, a shopping center, even a K through 12 school."
There is no sign of water being brought into phase three. No lots are graded. Former staff members, at least one of whom is part of the class represented in the federal lawsuit, say a wastewater treatment plant must be built, yet they wonder if talks have been initiated with the Public Utilities Commission.
Adding to the confusion, information on Front Sight's Web site this week includes a statement beginning with these words: "When Phase 1 is completed later this year ..."
Editor's note: The class action lawsuit filed against Front Sight Firearms can be accessed online at www.frontsightlitigation.com.
gc70
Member
Providing firearms training should be an automatic qualification for sainthood.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Agreed. The problem would seem to be that taking peoples' money and not providing them with what they believe you promised them is an automatic disqualification for sainthood.
Jim March
Member
Here's the scary part. The dollar amounts named in the lawsuit for what people THOUGHT was basically land deeds (or similar to it in a convoluted fashion) are ballpark similar to the "trainings costs" for something else Piazza and his friends were involved in. Namely Scientology.
In other words it's not impossible Piazza excused himself by thinking that the training recieved (which apparantly ranged from mediocre to pretty good as firearms instruction goes) was worth the expenditures involved. The people buying in on the other hand thought they were getting a lot more than just training.
Piazza's entire personal philosophy was and remains based on self delusion and now it's all come due.
In other words it's not impossible Piazza excused himself by thinking that the training recieved (which apparantly ranged from mediocre to pretty good as firearms instruction goes) was worth the expenditures involved. The people buying in on the other hand thought they were getting a lot more than just training.
Piazza's entire personal philosophy was and remains based on self delusion and now it's all come due.
gc70
Member
rbernie,
My response was tongue-in-cheek.
My response was tongue-in-cheek.
dustind
Member
Here is another thread on the topic. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=164834
I can't believe how many "once in a lifetime opportunities" I have been offered by Front Sight over the years simply for asking for their DVD. This was before I learned about what they are really like concerning repeatedly broken promises, scams, and lawsuits.
I can't believe how many "once in a lifetime opportunities" I have been offered by Front Sight over the years simply for asking for their DVD. This was before I learned about what they are really like concerning repeatedly broken promises, scams, and lawsuits.
pcf
Member
So running a shooting school is a free pass for unethical business practices?
Front Sight Alaska
I live a 5 minute walk from the Front Sight Alaska property. My neighbors and I wondered what was really happening back there. The first year, 2004, there was quite a bit of activity. Some days the firing would start at 0800 and go on until sunset. Last year hardly anything happened. This year the gate is locked and I've heard nothing.
The property comprises 3 40 acre tracts and one 80 acre tract. The only road access is via my subdivision. There are 2 structures on the first 40 acre parcel, no improvements on the rest according to public records. New information has come out in the amended Class Action Suit which sheds some light on the reason Front Sight Alaska exists and why Alaskans cannot take courses at the facility. See page 5 of the following document.
Also, on page 14, Dean Gamburd's allegations from "The Fourth Secret" are referenced. Pages 14-16 comprise new information.
http://frontsightlitigation.com/documents/FAC_Final-2006-06-26.pdf
I live a 5 minute walk from the Front Sight Alaska property. My neighbors and I wondered what was really happening back there. The first year, 2004, there was quite a bit of activity. Some days the firing would start at 0800 and go on until sunset. Last year hardly anything happened. This year the gate is locked and I've heard nothing.
The property comprises 3 40 acre tracts and one 80 acre tract. The only road access is via my subdivision. There are 2 structures on the first 40 acre parcel, no improvements on the rest according to public records. New information has come out in the amended Class Action Suit which sheds some light on the reason Front Sight Alaska exists and why Alaskans cannot take courses at the facility. See page 5 of the following document.
Also, on page 14, Dean Gamburd's allegations from "The Fourth Secret" are referenced. Pages 14-16 comprise new information.
http://frontsightlitigation.com/documents/FAC_Final-2006-06-26.pdf
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Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah, nevermind that Piazza's threat to sue Rich Lucibella in order to shut him up seems to be about the least of his ethical failings. He's a standup guy because his organization teaches classes.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
LOL!
Well, Piazza is a member of the Super Adventure Club.
Well, Piazza is a member of the Super Adventure Club.
Well I attended the 4 day defensive pistol course in May of 2000. They had just made the move from California so the place was still quite primative. A huge tent like structure with AC served as class room and as we were doing the classes land moving machines could be heard in the distance. Brad Ackman ran the course I took. He did a great job. We learned a lot. I will never forget the first day my ancient Glock 17s both developed problems. One broke its trigger spring the other broke the extractor. So I swapped out upper and lowers and shot "FrankenGlock" the rest of the days I was there. Naish of course gave us the sales pitch on "First Family" and the buddy I went with was a First Family member who took me as a guest. We also got the speech on the realestate plan. We had a blast, however we were not given any spiel on Scientology or anything else. On the last day before we left I was able to hook up with Dean (way back before the falling out.) to fix my old Glock 17's. I would like to go back as he has sent DVDs and the place has really changed for the better from what I have seen.
I actually bought two $500 certificates good for a couple of two day classes intending to take the wife out sometime. However getting from Ohio back out to Vegas has not worked out...at least not to go shooting. I also have TDI and John Benner near by... So I might sell those certificates at a discount of course. Let me know if anyone has any interest.
I actually bought two $500 certificates good for a couple of two day classes intending to take the wife out sometime. However getting from Ohio back out to Vegas has not worked out...at least not to go shooting. I also have TDI and John Benner near by... So I might sell those certificates at a discount of course. Let me know if anyone has any interest.
Jim March
Member
There have been reports of Scientology being pushed on some of the more "upper level" investors but it's not something they talked about in the initial sales pitches.
I didn't hear about Rich getting threatened but THAT is definately straight out of the "Super Adventure Club" playbook. Seriously, Scientology is WELL known for using the law as a bludgeon against critics...they don't think "free speech" applies to them.
Creepy website alert:
http://www.frontsight.com/
Note the massive personal PR blitz on this guy's part. Note the "Four Weapons Combat Master" title...sounds like something out of a bad "Ninjitsu" dojo...
I didn't hear about Rich getting threatened but THAT is definately straight out of the "Super Adventure Club" playbook. Seriously, Scientology is WELL known for using the law as a bludgeon against critics...they don't think "free speech" applies to them.
Creepy website alert:
http://www.frontsight.com/
Note the massive personal PR blitz on this guy's part. Note the "Four Weapons Combat Master" title...sounds like something out of a bad "Ninjitsu" dojo...
JohnBT
Member
www.frontsight.com/Announcements.asp?Action=ShowSingle&ID=631
"A Front Sight Secret Revealed and the $4000 Lifetime Membership"
"Dear Friends and Students of Front Sight,
Yes, this is it: YOUR LAST, BEST OPPORTUNITY TO SECURE A LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP AT FRONT SIGHT. Why am I doing this?
Simply because over 25 million people will have the opportunity to watch 26 episodes of Front Sight Challenge early next year and even more households will be reached with Front Sight True Crime Stories, our second reality series. (And I will be announcing a THIRD reality series before the end of the year!) I want you to have the opportunity to secure your own membership before the increased demand on Front Sight drives course prices and memberships out of the reach of our “Friends and Students” who are not already members. If you are not a member, and have always wanted to attend our courses for the rest of your life, then you must immediately take advantage of my way of thanking you for your support during the formative years of Front Sight.
I’m not kidding. This is not marketing hype."
"A Front Sight Secret Revealed and the $4000 Lifetime Membership"
"Dear Friends and Students of Front Sight,
Yes, this is it: YOUR LAST, BEST OPPORTUNITY TO SECURE A LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP AT FRONT SIGHT. Why am I doing this?
Simply because over 25 million people will have the opportunity to watch 26 episodes of Front Sight Challenge early next year and even more households will be reached with Front Sight True Crime Stories, our second reality series. (And I will be announcing a THIRD reality series before the end of the year!) I want you to have the opportunity to secure your own membership before the increased demand on Front Sight drives course prices and memberships out of the reach of our “Friends and Students” who are not already members. If you are not a member, and have always wanted to attend our courses for the rest of your life, then you must immediately take advantage of my way of thanking you for your support during the formative years of Front Sight.
I’m not kidding. This is not marketing hype."
I've been to Front Sight for a rifle course. I liked the class - it probably wasn't quite up to the quality of some other schools, but it was undoubtedly a well-spent four days. I learned a lot.
However, Piazza gives me the creeps (as do one or two of his head assistants).
FWIW, during my class there was no hint of Scientology, though one guy did ask Piazza about it in a Q&A session at the end. He made a mediocre attempt to deflect it as rediculous internet rumor (also metioning that according to people on the net, Jeff Cooper has died four times, or something).
Recently, I got a big (over a dozen pages) stapled letter from Piazza about taking his Life Success Planning Course (or something to that effect - I threw it out a while back). The gist was that for a mere $12,000 Piazza would coach me once a month by phone and make me a rich and successful person. Since I made the mistake of giving FS my real phone number when I took the rifle class, they also left me a recorded phone message from Piazza pushing this kooky thing.
Sylvan-Forge
Member
Scientology, eh?
Well, that will be a school I will not attend.
Thanks for the heads up.
Well, that will be a school I will not attend.
Thanks for the heads up.
Jim March
Member
You know...from what I understand of Scientology, this sort of "life coaching" gig completely outside of the "Church" by somebody TRAINED by the "Church" and probably using some of what that "Church" calls their "tech" would be frowned upon.
True story: there are small breakaway groups who believe that SOME of what Hubbard came up with was useful - usually including Dianetics and the use of the E-Meters but there are of course countless variations. Most of 'em regard the whole "Xenu thing" as completely laughable, proof that Hubbard lost his marbles sometime in the '60s but before that had some nifty ideas.
Not my cuppa tea but I've talked to one of these folks and they make a fair amount of sense. Enough that I wouldn't call 'em nuts, not enough that I want to join in the fun.
They basically wire up their own E-Meters with Radio Shack parts and meet in people's houses doing this stuff to each other for free.
In utmost secrecy.
Because if the "real Scientologists" get wind of such a coven of what they call "squirrels", they come round with baseball bats and smash anything electronic in sight, and sometimes a few skulls just to add emphasis.
Why is this important?
Because I'll betcha *anything* Piazza has gone far enough with some of this stuff to get classed as a "squirrel", esp. if he's charging the same sort of megabucks as the actual "Church" for "training".
That would be why the "life coaching" stuff isn't on the website. If there are Rondroids reading this thread (as there probably are) they're liable to be WAY pissed at Piazza.
Mind you, if this means he's not a very GOOD Scientologist well...that's not really all that serious an "insult" now is it?
And if the "Church" really takes on Piazza...well the dude IS armed to the teeth and then some.
would be frowned upon.True story: there are small breakaway groups who believe that SOME of what Hubbard came up with was useful - usually including Dianetics and the use of the E-Meters but there are of course countless variations. Most of 'em regard the whole "Xenu thing" as completely laughable, proof that Hubbard lost his marbles sometime in the '60s but before that had some nifty ideas.
Not my cuppa tea but I've talked to one of these folks and they make a fair amount of sense. Enough that I wouldn't call 'em nuts, not enough that I want to join in the fun
.They basically wire up their own E-Meters with Radio Shack parts and meet in people's houses doing this stuff to each other for free.
In utmost secrecy.
Because if the "real Scientologists" get wind of such a coven of what they call "squirrels", they come round with baseball bats and smash anything electronic in sight, and sometimes a few skulls just to add emphasis.
Why is this important?
Because I'll betcha *anything* Piazza has gone far enough with some of this stuff to get classed as a "squirrel", esp. if he's charging the same sort of megabucks as the actual "Church" for "training".
That would be why the "life coaching" stuff isn't on the website. If there are Rondroids reading this thread (as there probably are) they're liable to be WAY pissed at Piazza.
Mind you, if this means he's not a very GOOD Scientologist well...that's not really all that serious an "insult" now is it?
And if the "Church" really takes on Piazza...well the dude IS armed to the teeth and then some
.
Valkman
Member
I've been there. If he stuck to classes it'd be alright - training is great but the rest of his crap isn't.
I've been there also. Took a pistol class in 2004. I wasn't impressed with the sales pitch or the facilities, but the training was good. I know more than a few people that came away from there with a bad feeling regarding the membership.
I finally asked them to remove me from their mailing list a few weeks ago...the "Secrets of the Ultra Successful" mailing was the last straw.
Ed
I finally asked them to remove me from their mailing list a few weeks ago...the "Secrets of the Ultra Successful" mailing was the last straw.
Ed
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