Clean Your Range Bag before Flying!

The key word is retain....that doesn't mean you don't give them your combination. It means you can't lock your gun case and put the case in your bag and leave the key for it in the bag.

When you declare thefirearm, the Airline inspects that it is not loaded, and then you lock the case and take it to the TSA people. They will x-ray it and then if they need the key you hand it to them or give them the combo. at no time once the bag is in their hands my you touch it. Adter they search it or clear it no one opens the bag for further inspection.
Now if you drop off the bag with the TSA and don't stick around, they will first try to page you, and if you don't show up, they WILL break the lock.

They will x-ray it and then if they need the key you hand it to them or give them the combo. at no time once the bag is in their hands my you touch it.

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re·tain (r-tn)
tr.v. re·tained, re·tain·ing, re·tains
1. To maintain possession of. See Synonyms at keep.
2. To keep or hold in a particular place, condition, or position.

Interesting to note also that the TSA's website says:

"It is preferred that the passenger provide the key or combination to the screener if it is necessary to open the container, and then remain present during screening to take back possession of the key after the container is cleared. "

http://tsagov.edgesuite.net/summer/firearms.htm

TSA can prefer all it wants to, but the actual federal regulation states otherwise.

I'm not going to argue the meaning or intent of the word 'retain' with you - that's what lawyers are for. The definition above is pretty clear.

This is not a personal attack - so please don't take it that way... but since you're ex-TSA you've already been indoctrinated into their preferred way of doing things...which just happends to be contrary to Federal Law in this case.

Take names and badge numbers. Record everything they stole. Put each of their names on the lawsuit.

There are lots of lawyers that take cases like this pro bono, in exchange for a large cut of the winnings.

LSU, you are quite correct, I can sue. However, for the amount involved ($100) I would be a fool to do so.

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Not if you include court costs and lost wages in the amount.

re·tain (r-tn)
tr.v. re·tained, re·tain·ing, re·tains
1. To maintain possession of. See Synonyms at keep.
2. To keep or hold in a particular place, condition, or position.

Interesting to note also that the TSA's website says:

"It is preferred that the passenger provide the key or combination to the screener if it is necessary to open the container, and then remain present during screening to take back possession of the key after the container is cleared. "

http://tsagov.edgesuite.net/summer/firearms.htm

TSA can prefer all it wants to, but the actual federal regulation states otherwise.

I'm not going to argue the meaning or intent of the word 'retain' with you - that's what lawyers are for. The definition above is pretty clear.

This is not a personal attack - so please don't take it that way... but since you're ex-TSA you've already been indoctrinated into their preferred way of doing things...which just happends to be contrary to Federal Law in this case.

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I dont' get what you said that is different from what I said? It is 'prefered' that you stay and watch TSA open the bag because if you don't provide them with the key (for them to open it, not you), they WILL open it one way or the other. *insert screwdriver here*



When I say retain I mean you don't leave the key in the bag. It has nothing to do with during the search outside of the screwdriver option.

And rigth from this link to harken back to a previous point....
http://tsagov.edgesuite.net/summer/firearms.htm

Is this quote:

Air carriers may have additional requirements for transporting firearms and the amount of ammunition an individual may place in checked baggage. Travelers should contact the air carrier regarding its firearm and ammunition carriage policies.

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Outlaw, to my recollection, El stated that he did check with the airline and was in total compliance in the amound of ammunition he said, so them confistacting the stuff had nothing to do with him violating airline policy on amounts.

further

Oh I see how it is, its perfectly moral to be rude to people who are just doing their job?
My first though is who the BLEEP are you to promote yourself to the 'moral police'? What the hell is TSA worrying about morals for. Further, as a professional, if the guy who was having an affair with your wife came through, the professional thing to do would be treat him like everyone else.
Finally, when you stack the supposed 'rudenss' of speaking your mind vs the inconvenience of having your personal belongings rifled, and the truthfullness of your nature questioned, the passengers are doing a much less sin. Does a TSA agent, by necessity of his job, need to question the truthfullness of passengers? Of course he does. However, part and parcel of his job is to also be prepared for and deflect any negative comments or discomfort his actions and questions will cause. This is the same as a doctor being quite clinical, but patients are still quite shy about revealing there private parts. The doctors do NOT get all in a huff and have the attidute of 'why won't you show me your private parts? are you afraid I am a molestor?' and then do a bunch of extra tests just to humiliate the person, and cost them money. Any doctor who would do that is abusing his position of power, and the same with any TSA agent who takes action based on rude coments by a passenger



How is being rude to someone at TSA any different than being rude to a police officer? You are rude to a police officer, they give you a ticket for whatever you were stopped for. If you are polite, you can sometimes get off with a warning.

This is the difference between a polite person getting a free sample as opposed to playing full price, and on the opposite, a rude person getting falsely charged extra. It is fine to give polite people free samples, but to falsely charge the rude person extra is theft.

When the police officer pulls you over and gives you a ticket, he is doing it because it is his job to observe, see you breaking the law, and give a ticket. The TSA actions you defend, however, are targeting people who have done nothing wrong and harrass them simply because they are 'rude'

So, you believe it is okay to give someone unwarranted harrassing attention, possibly makingh them miss a flight because they were rude to you. Do you also believe it is acceptable to kill a person because the 'disrespected' you?

The TSA and their metal detectors, breast examinations, etc., couldn't stop 9/11 from happening again.

A razor blade will fit in a wallet. I wonder how many wallets get actively searched...

All the hijackers used were razor-blade box cutters.

Passengers aren't going to put up with terrorists anymore.

Again, all the TSA really does is reassure the sheep that the pasture is safe to board, while the wolf may be just beyond the treeline.

I dont' get what you said that is different from what I said? It is 'prefered' that you stay and watch TSA open the bag because if you don't provide them with the key (for them to open it, not you)

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My point is you DO NOT give them the key or combination - the PASSENGER RETAINS the key. *I* open the case with *my* key or *my* combination, not TSA. *I* then relock the case with the key that is still in my possession.

To hammer the point, how do you "retain" a combination after you've given it to someone? The answer is you can't. Let me take this one step futher. Who gets in trouble if my pistol is not in my case when I arrive at my destination? I'll give you one guess...it's not going to be TSA that gets in trouble.

I did not dispute that you need to be there when the case goes through x-ray or is hand searched - I never drop my cases off and leave them before making sure they have cleared TSA/inspection. My previous post stated that TSA "preferred" that you give them the key or combination - that's what the quote from their website says.

I will give a freshly ironed $5 bill to anyone who can offer a logical train of thought explaining how detaining El Tejon and confiscating the bulk of his ammunition, along with a couple of knives, is keeping us safe from terrorists.

Justin,
It's call incentive to keep looking at those X-Ray displays. I can see some rationale for reducing the amount of ammo (sorta maybe . . . no I don't buy it either), but taking the knives is pure opportunistic theft.

There are lots of lawyers that take cases like this pro bono, in exchange for a large cut of the winnings.

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El Tejon is a lawyer. When we've gotten to the point that an intelligent, educated, freedom-minded lawyer would prefer to allow employees of a taxpayer funded agency get away with stealing his property because the consequences of fighting back would be too severe, we know we've gone too far down the wrong road.

We're in a situation where even folks who can competently represent themselves in court for only the opportunity cost of their time are unwilling to make an issue out of the flagrant theft of their property because of the dangers of opposing any aspect of the system set up to protect us. What hope, then, do you have for seeing justice, short of sexual favors given to Outlaw's friends?

Normally when I hear stories of law-abiding folks being happy to get out of an "inspection" with "just" having their legal personal property stolen it is in a third-world hellhole.

When you work against the government as much as I do, cordex, you realize just how cheap I got away!

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You made the emminently practical choice and got away with minimal injury. I'd say you made the wise choice. Had you fought it, it would have hurt quite a bit more with no real benefit to you. Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not in any way speaking against your choice. My point is that if even El Tejon has to call theft by thugs a good deal, things are pretty awful.

Tejon, I'll bet you're glad you brought this up . . .

FWIW, this lawyer would have acted just as you did upon Leviathan's finding the inadvertant extra ammo in the bag. Who needs another hassle?

cordex, it's just business. Prohibitions are created to enrich the government. If I can get out of it by only enriching the government a bit, I will gladly do so.

I'm going to warn people at THR to check their range bags, but other than that, I'm going to do nothing. I lost maybe $100. If I did anything, TSA could stomp me into the dust with time and money and make flying prohibitive to me.

I'm on a watch list now. No sense in fighting for such a small amount.

you have to consider the alternatives. The government can squash me like a bug. I am nothing to them. I would rather avoid the hand than stand there and attempt to take it.

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Does noone believe in right and wrong anymore? Or we just too lazy to fight for what's right unless it's convenient and others are around to reassure us? How many examples do you need to stand up for what is right? Read your bible, it's full of em. They are there to show you what to do in the face of wrong. I think I have read em all and none I ever saw said anything about standing up against evil ... unless its terribly inconvenient. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. That might be hard for a lawyer to understand since you guys deal almost exclusively in grey area but the first that comes to mind in this c ase is the one about David and Goliath. Part of the lesson in that one is to show you that when you are right, and are standing against evil, you are not alone. You don't have to face the beast by yourself. THis is starting to sound like a question of faith and I'd rather leave that one alone I guess.

You just had a front row seat at the event of our lifetimes. You got to see a little piece of Liberty die. Im glad I wasn't there, such things make me sick to my stomach.

Sorry for ranting, preaching, soap-boxing ... It bothers me when I hear of people in power abusing it like that but what really gets me is when the victim walks away smiling saying "It could have been worse." Well, guess what. Next time it will be. The part that pisses me off is that next time it may not be you. Sure, you got away from the bad guys with minimal damage this time. Now they are just that much bolder and more efficient for their next victim.

Enjoy the warm water froggies. I hear the bubbles are nice when they get going good.

And how do you feel lucky?

Did you stop and ask yourself what stopped em from going any further? 10 years ago they wouldnt have gone this far so whatever stopped em this time just may not in another 10.

And how selfish an attitude is this? Yeah, YOU got out with minimal damage - this time. What did this do for the world you are leaving your kids? Did it make it a bit better or did they just lose something that will cost them dearly to get back, if they ever do at all?

Everything you do counts. Everything you do effects others. You made a choice today. Seems like the prudent one on an immediate basis. You made your flight. You weren't inconvenienced terribly by your own account. I'm glad things came out ok for YOU.

Guys, keep in mind that the government can, and will, spend over a million dollars to allegedly enforce an unpaid $200 tax.

It bothers me when I hear of people in power abusing it like that but what really gets me is when the victim walks away smiling saying "It could have been worse."

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El Tejon is pretty sure he wouldn't have gotten anywhere if he'd fought it, and I'm inclined to agree with him.

He could have gone down in a judicial blaze of glory, but it wouldn't have furthered any cause.

As a longtime criminal defense lawyer, I'm always tickled at how folks outside the system think that it's going to work out great and that justice will be done (and by "justice," the person is thinking that his way of thinking will be validated - since the person is has a difficult time conceptualizing that others might not agree with his way of thinking) and we'll all go have a slice of apple pie after dinner.

Alas, as George and Ira wrote, "It ain't necessarily so."

Rather than condemning El Tejon for wanting to get on with his trip and then for being kind enough to post about it here, I think we can all agree on the sentiments, "What a shame! That's not right!" Beyond that, it's pretty cheap to sit at our computers Monday-morning-quarterbacking the incident - and I think it's out of line to call Tejon selfish for wanting to handle his life as he sees fit (and, if I might add as an experienced constitutional attorney who's tilted at more windmills than most folks here have ever seen, making a pretty sensible choice under the circumstances).

Myself, I'll just say . . . what a shame, friend. That's not right. I'm glad it worked out for you with as little hassle as it did.

"El Tejon" said:

I would rather avoid the hand than stand there and attempt to take it.

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Spoken like a wise martial artist.

Hey EL Tejon,

I think you did perfectly. Being in the legal industry myself. I know how long and expensive the whole process can be. You made the better choice.

Let them have the knife and whatever. Get on your plane. Go to you destination and have a good time.

Now you are back. And there is no way they could arrest you or give you a hard time. I suggest you give them a hard time.

Call their bosses and bitch like there is no tomorrow. Write letters to their boss's boss. Call you local congressman. Get everyone you can think of involved.

If nothing comes out of this, at least it gives every freaking one of them a black mark next to their name.

Give them hell and make them know they can't pull that crap with everyone and that there will be consequences to pay for it later.

I was pulled over once on the freeway....to make a long story short, the officer was more concerned about giving me a ticket than helping me find my wife and little sister who were missing along that freeway. I said to him that I couldn't believe that he was more worried about giving me a ticket (which I acknowledge was okay) than to help me find two possible missing females. He threatened to throw me in jail for giving him "lip". I took the ticket and found my wife and sister. But the next day, I was on the phone with his sargent, captain and even threatened to get the mayor involved. Funny how my ticket "mysteriously" disappeared.

For the younger ones here, know how to fight the system. You can't do much behind bars protesting your innocence. Better to regroup and come back with a vengence when you've had time to re-elvaluate the situation and are prepared. Fight on your terms not theirs.

50 Freak - well said, dead on

BITCH, it's your right as a citizen. LE and other public servants work for YOU. They are not the Gestapo, even though they may think they are.

The only way to stop abuse by those who we employ is to be heard. Depending on the origin of the abuse you go to those responsible for their actions. Supervisors should be given a chance to correct those they are responsible for but if you don't feel you were heard or action was taken don't hesitate to go to the next level and those beyond.

BTW the media works wonders. None of the public servants want media publicity.

It's OUR country and our home. Also don't assume that you were the only one who they've mistreated. Their kind does get bolder with each one that they mistreat and get away with.