357 sig?
- Thread starter gringolet
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isn' the 357 sig a round in search of a non-existant problem?....
What is the problem you are speaking about? I have heard this cliche thrown around regarding different products and ideas and I guess it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
There have been all kinds of advances in handgun ballistic engineering in the past 30 years or so. I'm glad that most folks didn't "stupify" themselves asking that question or we would all be posting about our 38 special 158gr lead round nose self defense rounds......
What is the problem you are speaking about? I have heard this cliche thrown around regarding different products and ideas and I guess it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
There have been all kinds of advances in handgun ballistic engineering in the past 30 years or so. I'm glad that most folks didn't "stupify" themselves asking that question or we would all be posting about our 38 special 158gr lead round nose self defense rounds......
Where's the 10mm guys when you need 'em? I thought about a 357Sig, but found the 10mm to be very enjoyable and could serve the double purpose as a hunting sidearm for small whitetails. The Sig's probably a better bet for concealability/capacity and ammo cost is possibly a little cheaper.10mm used to be my favorite caliber. Now its 357sig. If you like 10mm youll probably like 357 sig.
First 357 Sig is not a neck down .40 cal. The velocity in 357 Sig is noticibly heigher.
Second the recoil in 357 Sig and .40 is night an day. I think in my 357 the recoil is less or so snappy that it is percieved as less than the .40
I agree with Medmo the nonexistant problem cleche is far reaching.
I also have both and as stated by others I use the .40 for home defense and the 357 Sig will be my carry.
Mag capacity is good. Accuracy is beter with the understanding that there will be times when a good shot may be hard to get. So I think both have thier merit.
I used to hate .40 until I found a nice platform for it. So I think allot rests on the gun design as much as the caliber.
First 357 Sig is not a neck down .40 cal. The velocity in 357 Sig is noticibly heigher.
Second the recoil in 357 Sig and .40 is night an day. I think in my 357 the recoil is less or so snappy that it is percieved as less than the .40
I agree with Medmo the nonexistant problem cleche is far reaching.
I also have both and as stated by others I use the .40 for home defense and the 357 Sig will be my carry.
Mag capacity is good. Accuracy is beter with the understanding that there will be times when a good shot may be hard to get. So I think both have thier merit.
I used to hate .40 until I found a nice platform for it. So I think allot rests on the gun design as much as the caliber.
MCgunner
Member
I tell ya what, I'd want good loads in whatever caliber and I'd pick the one most accurate that shoots closest to POA. I'd say the same if one of the choices were .45 ACP or 9x19, frankly.
Well, if I'm not mistaken, I can take .40 brass, run it through a .357 sig sizing die, and I now have, with a little trimming, a .357 sig. That's sorta called necking down by all I've ever understood in reloading. What the sig gains in velocity, it gives up in bullet mass and if you calculate energies for good loads in either, you'll find they're both up over 500 ft lbs or there abouts, well under 600 ft lbs. So, you've got ballistically similar guns there, don't see the improvement myself. Why would I want to spend money on a sig barrel for no improvement????? If it's just for range fun, I can understand that, but if I were in charge of firearms procurement for a law enforcement agency, it's six of one, half dozen of the other. Frankly, I'd probably go forty since sig ammo is higher and wastes tax payer's dollars, HEAR THAT, AUSTIN???? The shooting through car doors thing might hold some water if I shot through a lot of car doors. I'm more interested in performance on human torsos, though, than car doors.
Not looking to disagree with anybody because I have two guns (229 & 239) that I would really like to buy .357sig barrels for (I already own several .40's) but I keep hearing things like this ...S&W 910 said:
... http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Ah yes, firearmstactical.com, the Church of Jello. Unfortunately, the .357 Sig is doing a lot better putting people down in the real world for departments like Texas DPS, Richmond VA and NC state police than they like to admit. The .357 Sig is the second most issued caliber to state police agencies (to be fair, it's way behind the .40 and only one agency ahead of .45acp).
However, unless you are law enforcement, I think you're better off with a 9mm. ..357 Sig is CHEAPER than most .357 mag and about even with .45acp (not counting 100 round value packs), and available at Wal-mart (or online for even cheaper) for people saying they can't find it. But 9mm is SO cheap, why not shoot a lot and get better than worry about about two hundred extra fps.
However, unless you are law enforcement, I think you're better off with a 9mm. ..357 Sig is CHEAPER than most .357 mag and about even with .45acp (not counting 100 round value packs), and available at Wal-mart (or online for even cheaper) for people saying they can't find it. But 9mm is SO cheap, why not shoot a lot and get better than worry about about two hundred extra fps.
isn' the 40S&W a round in search of a non-existant problem?....
Why take a fully potent 10mm cartridge trim it down for less powder capacity, less velocity and less energy? I'm sure plenty of folks would ask where the "non-existant problem" was there. Both the 40S&W and 357SIG's development have a parallel.
Why take a fully potent 10mm cartridge trim it down for less powder capacity, less velocity and less energy? I'm sure plenty of folks would ask where the "non-existant problem" was there. Both the 40S&W and 357SIG's development have a parallel.
MCgunner
Member
Great point. The FBI neutered the 10 and then said it was more effective????
How can reducing velocity with THE SAME BULLET be more effective? There's not even a big slow bullet vs. small fast bullet battle here. I can see their arguments if they were about control and training non-shooters, though I've fired a G20 and found it quite mild in recoil compared to, say, a medium frame .357 magnum revolver. I conclude that there is absolutely no logic allowed in any government organizational "thinking".
Cousin Mike
Member
I really don't like statements like that... I know this wasn't what you meant, but it reminds me of the suburban mall cops I've talked to telling me what 'civilians' should and shouldn't have, use, need, etc. Why should we leave all the good stuff to LEO's, when they don't even practice as much as most of us (serious civilian shooters) do? I do understand the logic that "it's cheap," but everyone does not feel the need to save $6 to buy a lesser caliber for practice. Just my $.02 on that one.
And, as is custom, here it is... the hi-jacking of .40S&W and .357Sig threads by the 10mm folks. I know it will probably never change, but 10mm fans can get annoying. Quite frankly, the 10mm can't do much of anything that the .357 Sig can't do, and it's only slightly bigger. It also doesn't travel much (if at all) faster. Any gun chambered for 10mm has to have a damn-near desert-eagle sized grip, and it actually feels like .357Sig to shoot, maybe milder in terms of recoil. In fact, the only other round I've heard of with enough power to crack the plywood holding plates in ballistic gel tests, other than the 10mm, was the .357Sig!
IMHO, the FBI canned the 10mm because it was impractical for their specific needs... The grip size alone would have gotten it canned if I were running the FBI. Not everyone that works for them has lumberjack hands, you know? They didn't can it because of recoil. And they definitely didn't can it because it was the instant-man-stopping-death-ray-wonder-cartridge people try and make it.
It's not the FBI's fault that people don't like or buy 10mm's anyway! It's okay to like your favorite cartridge and all, but DAMN people... Let it go! You 10mm guys are the worst! Way more militant than us .45ACP guys
I bet if Sig, H&K, and other manufacturers made guns chambered for 10mm, more poeple would buy them. Besides, the 10mm will have it's day again, and go out of style again, just like all calibers do.Never heard anyone say that about the 10mm in any way, shape, or form.
My sentiments exactly. But the 10mm folks seem so disgruntled that their cartridge isn't forced upon all gunowners by law and/or threat of government sponsored execution, I never even recommend them trying it.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Well, I don't know if I'd go that far.
I'm quite the 10mm fan, but my carry Sig 239 is in .357 Sig.
These threads are always fun.
Pretty much every cartridge ever offered was a solution looking for a problem.
Plenty of men died from black powder revolvers, just as plenty have died from 10mm and .357 Sig.
Truth is we should all be carrying .45 Colt single actions and be done with it........
Glockensig
Member
Originally, .357 Sig was a necked down .40 but the "necked down" area was separating as a ring. So now .357 Sig brass has a heavier wall thickness than .40. I would never ever use a Sig round that read 40 S&W on the casing. And as far as .357 being hard to find....gee, I've only bought 49 different factory loadings or factory reloads so far and I still have more to go.....
"And, as is custom, here it is... the hi-jacking of .40S&W and .357Sig threads by the 10mm folks."
Cousin Mike - I'm not hijacking anything and I'm not a "10mm fan". I currently only own one pistol chambered in 10mm which represents about 2% of my total handgun collection. I didn't think this was a 40S&W thread when the original post asked:
"isn' the 357 sig a round in search of a non-existant problem?...."
I was answering this question in the original post and making the point that the question could be raised for most new cartridge developments in the past 30 to 50 years. I don't ask the question and think that it is nothing more than a worn out cliche. See my previous post in this thread for my thoughts on that. I appreciate manufacturers tinkering and investing on R&D for new developments. If they didn't we would all be packing 38SPEC 158gr lead round nose cartridges.
The 10mm received negative feed back from the instructors at Quantico due to recoil. In my experience "Full House" 10mm loads do have significantly more recoil then 40S&W's, 357sSIG's and 9mm's. Grip dimensions had nothing to do with the FBI's dissapointment with the S&W 1076 10mm.. The double stack 40 S&W autos are wider than the single stack 10mm's which means the circumferences for both are similar. The 10mm was loaded with a lesser charge to help reduce recoil for the FBI. It was then that engineers at S&W realized that you didn't need all of that case length for the 10mm load and developed the 40S&W.
Cousin Mike - I'm not hijacking anything and I'm not a "10mm fan". I currently only own one pistol chambered in 10mm which represents about 2% of my total handgun collection. I didn't think this was a 40S&W thread when the original post asked:
"isn' the 357 sig a round in search of a non-existant problem?...."
I was answering this question in the original post and making the point that the question could be raised for most new cartridge developments in the past 30 to 50 years. I don't ask the question and think that it is nothing more than a worn out cliche. See my previous post in this thread for my thoughts on that. I appreciate manufacturers tinkering and investing on R&D for new developments. If they didn't we would all be packing 38SPEC 158gr lead round nose cartridges.
The 10mm received negative feed back from the instructors at Quantico due to recoil. In my experience "Full House" 10mm loads do have significantly more recoil then 40S&W's, 357sSIG's and 9mm's. Grip dimensions had nothing to do with the FBI's dissapointment with the S&W 1076 10mm.. The double stack 40 S&W autos are wider than the single stack 10mm's which means the circumferences for both are similar. The 10mm was loaded with a lesser charge to help reduce recoil for the FBI. It was then that engineers at S&W realized that you didn't need all of that case length for the 10mm load and developed the 40S&W.
Cousin Mike
Member
medmo - I agree with just about everything you say regarding the worn out "unasked question" cliche's, and as I'm sure you can tell by my Sig line, I like all kinds of different calibers myself. If you feel like I unjustly categorized you as a 10mm fan, I apologize.
I do sometimes get sick of the die hard 10mm guys (not the moderate 10mm fans, like TexasSIGMan, ) coming into .357Sig and .40S&W threads though, and it happens constantly. Also, my experience with 10mm is very limited - I'm also a large guy, so that could have a little something with what I consider 'heavy' recoil. All in all, I think we agree a lot more than we disagree. I think you just took my post a little too seriously.
Oh, except this part...
Now you're just nit-picking
And what exactly is wrong with 158gr. .38SPec?
I do sometimes get sick of the die hard 10mm guys (not the moderate 10mm fans, like TexasSIGMan,
) coming into .357Sig and .40S&W threads though, and it happens constantly. Also, my experience with 10mm is very limited - I'm also a large guy, so that could have a little something with what I consider 'heavy' recoil. All in all, I think we agree a lot more than we disagree. I think you just took my post a little too seriously. Oh, except this part...
Now you're just nit-picking
And what exactly is wrong with 158gr. .38SPec?
That would actually be more bad than good, right?
I've really been thinking about the .357 Sig cartridge right now, if I get it, I might get it in P239 or P2000 form, haven't decided which.
Yes, I am a KE freak. Maybe it's the small scientist side in me.
But don't some people change their carry cartridge/gun depending on time of year? For those of us who live in cold weather climates where big thick coats are the norm, would that make sense or am I making things too simple?
12 Volt Man
Member
I think since I got into reloading I might as well try .357 Sig. I'll just get an aftermarket barrel for my Glock 20. I expect it to be a fun caliber to shoot. I am already on my way since the last batch of .45 ACP brass I bought off ebay had 2 .357 Sig casings in it.
DonGlock26
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 259
I like the .357Sig for it's shooting qualities. It has less recoil, muzzle flip, & torque than my .40 barrel in my P229. It is WAY more accurate than .40. My P229 hold 12+1 rounds of powerful ammo. That's like carrying 2 .357 mag revovlers. I just may need to shoot out of my car or into a car. Last time I looked, parking lots are plum full of 'em.
The agencies using .357 Sigs like them. The NCHP switched guns, but not caliber. They had a chance to switch to a different round, but they kept the .357Sig. I believe some agencies are switching to 9mm or .45acp from .40. Is it a trend? Too early to tell.
http://www.miragetechnologies.net/images/Video/SPEER Gold Dot 357 SIG.wmv
Both quotes are from Ammolab- David DiFabio
"1. The .357 Magnum was developed as a 6" barreled loading and was issued for many years as such until adopted by the various highway patrols and offered with the then "compact" 4" barrel. At 6" velocities the sp loadings work very well and provide identical wound profiles to the .30 carbine.
2. The .357 and the .45 are when loaded with premium bullets identical in wounding capabilities within the first 25 yards after 25+ the .357 is superior.
3. The .357 Magnum as a police issue weapon did not and does not have the reputation that the gunrags and those who have made generous profits from stating it does would like you to believe. Texas DPS for example wrote in the first transitional documents that the magnum was not performing as well as they would like and noted an decrease in shots fired per incapacitation with the P220 .45 pistols of 8%. The tide turned when the 229 was issued with the .357 Sig and the ratio dropped another 5%.
4. Intermixing the statements made with regard to the "increased power" of +P, +P+, and other such foolishness e.g. "velocity is not a factor with service caliber handgun cartridges" and the capabilities of a true magnum class handgun cartridge is not an accurate assumption.
5. The change in police issue use from magnum cartridges to service caliber auto pistol cartridges was due to improved ergonomics, capacity, increased hit potential and increased controllability. Issue weapons must meet the needs of all and ignore the needs and capability's of the few, few can truly shoot a magnum cartridge as effectively as a service caliber pistol .
6. Given the capability and the proper design/application of the bullet to the velocity one should prudence dictates always choose the more powerful loading provided that the terminal performance of the bullet is not infringed upon or the capability of the shooter to engage is not compromised."
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthre...highlight=texas
"I had heard this same question/statement (especially from Delaware State PD Troopers recently) that we decided to test the notion using actual automotive body parts with the gracious help of J&G Automotive.
The test guns used were the Glock G31, Glock G22, and Glock G17.
Test ammo used was Speer Gold Dot as follows:
Load 1: 9mm 124gr+P Lot# 28904
Load 2:.40S&W 180gr Lot# B28G64
Load 3: .357 Sig 125gr Lot # J02G34
We tested as follows:
Test Panel #1
1999 Ford Taurus Hood (w car attached)
Distance to target: 3 yards
Angle to target: Approx 30 degrees (estimated height for a 5'10" male to be standing in front of the car firing at it aiming at the rear 1/3)
Result:
Load 1: Semi-round crater/hole w/partial penetration and impact with the windshield in the lower 1/4 of the glass. RW=114grs
Load 2: Oblong crater w/full penetration through the hood and interestingly enough we found a small perfectly circular metal disc matching the hood material and color about 12" from the point where the round struck the engine. RW=146grs
Load 3: Almost circular crater/hole just slightly larger then 9mm, no metal disc, and a slightly deformed bullet. RW=118grs
Test Panel (s) 2:
1992, Chevrolet C1500, 1991 C2500, and 1996 C1500 windshields in perfect condition (the model years do not match but they were free and it was the best we could come up with).
Fired at directly in front of the front bumper of the truck(s) at 3 yards distance to the hood using the steering wheel as the aiming point on each one.
Result:
Load 1: complete penetration with a slightly oblong entry hole. RW= 98grs
Load 2: complete penetration with a virtually circular hole. RW= 134grs
Load 3: complete penetration with a slightly oblong entry hole. RW= 107grs
Test Panel 3:
1998 Chevrolet Suburban C2500 one piece fold down rear lift gate (split type with upper glass window and one opening handle).
Distance to target 3 yards.
Aiming point upper 1/3 of the lift gate but all impacts occurred 4-6” below the top edge.
Result:
Load 1: Complete penetration with a torn/deformed bullet stopped within the outer vinyl layer of the rear (3rd) seat. RW=112grs
Load 2: complete penetration with a non-expanded but heavily deformed bullet stopped by the center layer of the 2nd (middle) seat. RW=137grs
Load 3: Complete penetration with a moderately deformed bullet lodged in the center console of the front row seats (driver and passenger). The bullet appears to have collapsed in on itself in effect becoming an fmj flat nosed projectile. RW= 116grs
We did not have the ability due to scheduling constraints and sheer luck in getting the owners to agree to do the tests on what were otherwise good “salvage” parts to prepare and bring calibrated ordnance gelatin to capture the bullets in after they passed through the barriers so I cannot comment as to the penetration/expansion/performance in tissue stimulant."
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-b...t=000368#000000
I just may need to shoot out of my car or into a car. Last time I looked, parking lots are plum full of 'em. The agencies using .357 Sigs like them. The NCHP switched guns, but not caliber. They had a chance to switch to a different round, but they kept the .357Sig. I believe some agencies are switching to 9mm or .45acp from .40. Is it a trend? Too early to tell.
http://www.miragetechnologies.net/images/Video/SPEER Gold Dot 357 SIG.wmv
Both quotes are from Ammolab- David DiFabio
"1. The .357 Magnum was developed as a 6" barreled loading and was issued for many years as such until adopted by the various highway patrols and offered with the then "compact" 4" barrel. At 6" velocities the sp loadings work very well and provide identical wound profiles to the .30 carbine.
2. The .357 and the .45 are when loaded with premium bullets identical in wounding capabilities within the first 25 yards after 25+ the .357 is superior.
3. The .357 Magnum as a police issue weapon did not and does not have the reputation that the gunrags and those who have made generous profits from stating it does would like you to believe. Texas DPS for example wrote in the first transitional documents that the magnum was not performing as well as they would like and noted an decrease in shots fired per incapacitation with the P220 .45 pistols of 8%. The tide turned when the 229 was issued with the .357 Sig and the ratio dropped another 5%.
4. Intermixing the statements made with regard to the "increased power" of +P, +P+, and other such foolishness e.g. "velocity is not a factor with service caliber handgun cartridges" and the capabilities of a true magnum class handgun cartridge is not an accurate assumption.
5. The change in police issue use from magnum cartridges to service caliber auto pistol cartridges was due to improved ergonomics, capacity, increased hit potential and increased controllability. Issue weapons must meet the needs of all and ignore the needs and capability's of the few, few can truly shoot a magnum cartridge as effectively as a service caliber pistol .
6. Given the capability and the proper design/application of the bullet to the velocity one should prudence dictates always choose the more powerful loading provided that the terminal performance of the bullet is not infringed upon or the capability of the shooter to engage is not compromised."
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthre...highlight=texas
"I had heard this same question/statement (especially from Delaware State PD Troopers recently) that we decided to test the notion using actual automotive body parts with the gracious help of J&G Automotive.
The test guns used were the Glock G31, Glock G22, and Glock G17.
Test ammo used was Speer Gold Dot as follows:
Load 1: 9mm 124gr+P Lot# 28904
Load 2:.40S&W 180gr Lot# B28G64
Load 3: .357 Sig 125gr Lot # J02G34
We tested as follows:
Test Panel #1
1999 Ford Taurus Hood (w car attached)
Distance to target: 3 yards
Angle to target: Approx 30 degrees (estimated height for a 5'10" male to be standing in front of the car firing at it aiming at the rear 1/3)
Result:
Load 1: Semi-round crater/hole w/partial penetration and impact with the windshield in the lower 1/4 of the glass. RW=114grs
Load 2: Oblong crater w/full penetration through the hood and interestingly enough we found a small perfectly circular metal disc matching the hood material and color about 12" from the point where the round struck the engine. RW=146grs
Load 3: Almost circular crater/hole just slightly larger then 9mm, no metal disc, and a slightly deformed bullet. RW=118grs
Test Panel (s) 2:
1992, Chevrolet C1500, 1991 C2500, and 1996 C1500 windshields in perfect condition (the model years do not match but they were free and it was the best we could come up with).
Fired at directly in front of the front bumper of the truck(s) at 3 yards distance to the hood using the steering wheel as the aiming point on each one.
Result:
Load 1: complete penetration with a slightly oblong entry hole. RW= 98grs
Load 2: complete penetration with a virtually circular hole. RW= 134grs
Load 3: complete penetration with a slightly oblong entry hole. RW= 107grs
Test Panel 3:
1998 Chevrolet Suburban C2500 one piece fold down rear lift gate (split type with upper glass window and one opening handle).
Distance to target 3 yards.
Aiming point upper 1/3 of the lift gate but all impacts occurred 4-6” below the top edge.
Result:
Load 1: Complete penetration with a torn/deformed bullet stopped within the outer vinyl layer of the rear (3rd) seat. RW=112grs
Load 2: complete penetration with a non-expanded but heavily deformed bullet stopped by the center layer of the 2nd (middle) seat. RW=137grs
Load 3: Complete penetration with a moderately deformed bullet lodged in the center console of the front row seats (driver and passenger). The bullet appears to have collapsed in on itself in effect becoming an fmj flat nosed projectile. RW= 116grs
We did not have the ability due to scheduling constraints and sheer luck in getting the owners to agree to do the tests on what were otherwise good “salvage” parts to prepare and bring calibrated ordnance gelatin to capture the bullets in after they passed through the barriers so I cannot comment as to the penetration/expansion/performance in tissue stimulant."
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-b...t=000368#000000
DonGlock26
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 259
Since capacity was brought up:
20 Dec 00
Enough ammunition?
SOP-9, as it is called, is NYPD's ongoing statistical study of lethal-force incidents in which MOSs (Members of Service) are involved. It dates from the 1860s to the present and is a credible source of information, one of the few available.
For years, we were all told SOP-9 established the "average" number of rounds fired by an MOS during a lethal encounter was two to three. We later learned that figure was incorrect and was actually the result of sloppy statistical analysis. Naive statisticians simply took the total of all rounds fired outside of the firing range and divided it by the total number of shooting "Incidents." Unhappily, "incidents" included accidents and suicides!
A more careful analysis of the data (which included only intentional shootings) revealed the actual figure to be very close to six rounds. What that said to us all was that officers, when threatened with lethal violence, were firing every round they had in their six-shot revolvers. After six shots, there was a mandatory pause for a conventional reload or a "NY reload," which consisted of producing a second revolver! After the reload, additional shooting was rarely necessary.
That was prior to 1994. In 1994 autoloading pistols were introduced to the NYPD system.
When autoloaders (mostly Glocks, with an occasional S&W and Beretta) came into the NYPD system, we all expected that figure (six) to go up into the teens, fully expecting officers to continue to fire every round they have. The latest data has shown our expectations to be incorrect!
The new "average" number of rounds fired is eight. Subsequent data may alter that number, but that is what we have now. What jumps out at me is that, after eight rounds are fired, the parties separate or accommodate to the point where additional shooting is not necessary, at least in the short term, even though the officer is fully capable of firing more rounds. NYPD shooting accuracy has improved steadily, but the average hit percentage is still below twenty, so, out of eight rounds fired, only one or two are likely to impact anywhere on the suspect. In most cases, hit or not, the suspect disengages and runs away.
If you're wondering if there is a point lurking in all this:
If you have enough rounds in your magazine to get you through the initial exchange and still have some rounds left, you can then reload at your leisure. If you go to slide lock prior to the fight ending, then you'll have to reload and resume firing on an emergency basis. We teach students to reload on an emergency basis in any event, but having enough rounds to get you through the fight without the necessity of a reload bringing about an inconvenient interruption would appear to provide a genuine advantage.
Debates about calibers, accuracy, and ammunition aside, a fifteen-shooter or even an eleven-shooter would appear to be a better choice than a seven or eight-shooter, at least in New York City!
/John
created by [email protected]
Copyright © 2000 by DTI, Inc. All rights reserved.
created on Wednesday December 20, 2000 23:59:0
20 Dec 00
Enough ammunition?
SOP-9, as it is called, is NYPD's ongoing statistical study of lethal-force incidents in which MOSs (Members of Service) are involved. It dates from the 1860s to the present and is a credible source of information, one of the few available.
For years, we were all told SOP-9 established the "average" number of rounds fired by an MOS during a lethal encounter was two to three. We later learned that figure was incorrect and was actually the result of sloppy statistical analysis. Naive statisticians simply took the total of all rounds fired outside of the firing range and divided it by the total number of shooting "Incidents." Unhappily, "incidents" included accidents and suicides!
A more careful analysis of the data (which included only intentional shootings) revealed the actual figure to be very close to six rounds. What that said to us all was that officers, when threatened with lethal violence, were firing every round they had in their six-shot revolvers. After six shots, there was a mandatory pause for a conventional reload or a "NY reload," which consisted of producing a second revolver! After the reload, additional shooting was rarely necessary.
That was prior to 1994. In 1994 autoloading pistols were introduced to the NYPD system.
When autoloaders (mostly Glocks, with an occasional S&W and Beretta) came into the NYPD system, we all expected that figure (six) to go up into the teens, fully expecting officers to continue to fire every round they have. The latest data has shown our expectations to be incorrect!
The new "average" number of rounds fired is eight. Subsequent data may alter that number, but that is what we have now. What jumps out at me is that, after eight rounds are fired, the parties separate or accommodate to the point where additional shooting is not necessary, at least in the short term, even though the officer is fully capable of firing more rounds. NYPD shooting accuracy has improved steadily, but the average hit percentage is still below twenty, so, out of eight rounds fired, only one or two are likely to impact anywhere on the suspect. In most cases, hit or not, the suspect disengages and runs away.
If you're wondering if there is a point lurking in all this:
If you have enough rounds in your magazine to get you through the initial exchange and still have some rounds left, you can then reload at your leisure. If you go to slide lock prior to the fight ending, then you'll have to reload and resume firing on an emergency basis. We teach students to reload on an emergency basis in any event, but having enough rounds to get you through the fight without the necessity of a reload bringing about an inconvenient interruption would appear to provide a genuine advantage.
Debates about calibers, accuracy, and ammunition aside, a fifteen-shooter or even an eleven-shooter would appear to be a better choice than a seven or eight-shooter, at least in New York City!
/John
created by [email protected]
Copyright © 2000 by DTI, Inc. All rights reserved.
created on Wednesday December 20, 2000 23:59:0
thanks..
lot more than I asked for...thanks for the info.
as for my comment
in search of a problem..my thinking was
that with the 40, 45 and 357 mag stopping power on
human-type targets is not a huge issue...the % points
seperating these calibers is pretty small...
more important may be the factors of capacity, accuracy,
recoil, muzzle flash, fit and feel, reliable function...
AND, of course ammunition availability...in pavement
narrows USA will it be found in joe-bob's sporting goods?....
SO..what I have learned is manageable recoil, but with bigger BANG,
PROBABLY a lot of muzzle flash, good accuracy and reliability
and maybe a growing availability...thanks again...
lot more than I asked for...thanks for the info.
as for my comment
in search of a problem..my thinking was
that with the 40, 45 and 357 mag stopping power on
human-type targets is not a huge issue...the % points
seperating these calibers is pretty small...
more important may be the factors of capacity, accuracy,
recoil, muzzle flash, fit and feel, reliable function...
AND, of course ammunition availability...in pavement
narrows USA will it be found in joe-bob's sporting goods?....
SO..what I have learned is manageable recoil, but with bigger BANG,
PROBABLY a lot of muzzle flash, good accuracy and reliability
and maybe a growing availability...thanks again...
DonGlock26
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 259
Your welcome.
Good SD ammo like Speer Golddots are loaded with low flash powder, so flash isn't a problem.
Don.
Good SD ammo like Speer Golddots are loaded with low flash powder, so flash isn't a problem.
Don.
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