"Can't handle 9mm..."

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my dad had an intresting way to teach me. he started me off with his .45 winchester sxt's some were 230 grain some were 185 +P. I was nervous not gonna lie that it was my first time shooting and i did okay hit paper but nothing impressive. then he had me shot hollow point .357 magnum rounds. those were a bit more powerful and a learning expirence to say the least. then he let me shoot his 380 with hollowpoints have to admit i loved that gun at first. but when i went shooting a second time with my older cousin and his friend and they were shootng ball ammo i shot all of the above and 9mm and loved it and now i love shooting and dont mind the recoil. about a month ago i shot the 500 S&W and didnt so much mind the recoil but rather the busting of my knuckles after i fired the weapon most likely due to poor grip on the weapon. the 9mm is snappy but its not bad or either is the 45 their diffrent like everyone says and sometime your first time shooting is a scary expirence but when you keep doing it it turns into a passion or love.
 
But I can shoot a 1911 all day and frequently have with absolutely no ill effects or pain
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Well, that's all that matters!:D

Seriously, I have found far worse recoil from my H&K USP45C than my Kimber UCDP, even though the Kimber weighs less. Neither are objectionable by any means, just an observation. It seems for me, 1911s are best.

Years ago Detonics made a pocket 9mm called the Power 9. I remember Peterson's Handgun Tests saying it was far too much recoil for them. My G26 is a pussycat, but obviously, depending on size, design, and weight, the 9 can be punishing by anybody's standards.
 
I am a woman with a recently inherited Smith and Wesson 1955 45 Caliber Revolver (N Frame). I also have an STI Trojan 1911 chambered in 9mm. I was quite intimidated by the idea of shooting a 45 caliber handgun. When I finally got up the courage to try it I discovered much to my surprise that the 1955 is probably the easiest shooting gun I’ve ever fired. Recoil wise there doesn’t seem to be that big of a difference between the 9mm and the 45. My own current theory as to why is that the shape and fit of the grips might very well be the biggest factor in recoil for me as opposed to caliber.
 
My mother cannot even rack the slide on a 9mm, and my 9mm model 659 is too heavy for her to hold at arms reach without hurting her. When i first started shooting, my 9mm semi was way too much 'barrel flip' though i had no problem with the stout 'kick' of a .38 snub. I think, as usual, this is perspective. All recoil is totally subjective to the shooter...how you handle it depends on the forces involved (torque, flip, etc.) and the muscles you use commonly and have developed well. I've been at the range when someone is complaining about how a9mm feels...seen them pull out a .45 and have NO problems.
 
LeadPumper ~ it's unusual, but not that unusual, to encounter a newby who bursts into tears upon firing for the first time. It's usually a simple adrenalin response, nothing more, and tends to go away quicker if you let them know it's a normal response. Guys do it too, but don't usually cloud up quite so visibly as girls do (cultural training, I think) -- guys who have the same basic physiological response tend to flush, get shaky hands, and start dropping things.
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First time i ever fired a gun i had the same response, funny you'd point it out so accurately. Put the gun down after the first mag and dropped the first 6 rounds i tried to load into the second one. Adrenaline is hardcore. Really opened my eyes to just how hard a tactical reload under fire might be when TSHTF in reality, especially for a revolver.
 
It's not the size of the cartridge but the size of the gun. I'd rather shoot my 1911 any day over my Kel-Tec 3AT.
I had a 340pd that I sold after a month because it was no fun to shoot and I couldn't hit a barn with it. But I'd shoot a 686 w/ a 4" barrel and enjoy it.
 
I just recently got my girlfriend shooting a CZ 75 in 9mm, and she loves it. I made a mistake the very first time we went to the range, because all I had was my 4" 357 revolver. She wasn't too enthused about the 357, and set it down after one shot. The next trip, I tried a different approach, and borrowed a friend's .22 revolver. She fell in love with the .22. After several trips to the range with the .22 I convinced her to try a CZ in .380 ACP. She was a bit leery of it because of the "big number" like my .357. I showed her a .357 cartridge and compared it to the .380 ACP cartridge. After a brief lesson in what "caliber" is, she agreed to try firing the CZ. She handled the 380 with ease, and loved it more than the .22. Then came the big step, the full-size 9mm CZ 75. Add another lesson about caliber, bullet weight, gun weight, and felt recoil, and she decided to give the 9mm a try. Turns out she loves the 9mm even more than the 380.

Now I just have to wait until she's 21 (a few months away) and I can get her first 9mm ;)
 
Not a bad idea. I should try to have her shoot some DAO pistols on our next trip to the range. I know she didn't care for the DA pull on the .22 revolver, so we'll see. I'm just trying to get her to try different sizes, weights, and styles of pistols until she finds one she's comfortable with. Whether it's a Hi-Point or a high end 1911, I want her to be comfortable with all aspects of handling.
 
Some very thoughtful replies to this thread so far... Thanks everyone.

I guess I am sort of a jerk. :D

I started my girlfriend out on a 1911 in .45ACP - not the usual move, but that's all I had at the time. She loved it. Soon, after buying more guns and experiencing different calibers for herself, I was starting to think she just liked everything. We found out she has her limits when she tried my .357 Magnum for the first time. After talking about it, she determined it was the noise that bothered her more than anything else.

I also had a scary experience once where a lady at a shooting range I frequent had somewhat of a nervous breakdown due to me shooting my .357 Magnum in the next lane. Granted, she should never have been at the range in the first place - but that was definitely an eye-opener about noise-sensitivity.

I've taught a few friends and family members some of the basics. Not only have all (except my friend described on page 2) been great students and fast learners, but none of them have been recoil or noise shy in any real way. I guess I never really considered 9mm to be that loud, especially when you've got a bunch of assorted other 9's, .357's, .40's, .45's and other various calibers going off in the other lanes. I've never been lucky enough to have the range all to myself. :D

I bought a Ruger MkII .22LR, almost exclusively for the purpose of teaching new shooters, as well as improving my own shooting. It's worked well, but reading this thread has given me some ideas on how to better introduce new shooters to the defensive calibers. Here's what I'm thinking so far.

First: Introduce them to shooting with the .22, as planned. Teach grip, sight picture/alignment, breath control, stance, and other beginner-level stuff with the .22. Perhaps go through 100 rounds, or however many are needed to get the new shooter used to slight noise, recoil, etc. associated with shooting the .22LR.

Next: Move to 9mm and .38 Special. When I switch to these calibers, I'll use CornCod's technique - simply let them blast away with both for a while, just to get used to the "jump" in caliber/recoil. Once they're comfortable, go back to fundamentals w/the 9mm and .38 Special. I figure this will also be good for familiarizing them with both the revolver and semi-auto platforms, the difference in the sights, recoil, etc.

Then: Move to .45ACP - I think one of the things that got my girlfriend so into shooting was the fact that her first time, she mastered the big, bad .45! :D Once people see that the "hand cannon" .45 won't rip your arm out of the socket, or knock you backwards when you shoot it, they tend to gain a little confidence. So I think the .45 is a good gun to use with new shooters, simply based on the confidence boost it seems to give. I've also noticed that everyone I've personally introduce to the .45 ends up wanting one. I've always thought that .45 is easier to shoot for lots of folks than 9mm is.

Finally: Give the option to try the "rougher" calibers - .40 S&W, .357 Magnum, .357 Sig. These are the loudest and hardest-recoiling guns I own, and the ones that newer shooters find the most challenging and/or intimidating. I figure that maybe I'll shoot these first to give them an idea of the noise and flash associated with each caliber, and then give them the option to try each for themselves. I'm not really expecting most to be fond of these calibers right off the bat, but you never know.

Advice? Thoughts? Should I leave the big noisy catridges out of it altogether, or should I at least present the option to try them in order to complete the common-defensive-caliber spectrum? Maybe I should insist? In my CCW class they made everyone shoot .357 Magnum, didn't matter if you were 80 years old, or scared, or whatever. You had to cook off a few .357 rounds to pass their course. A few folks weren't crazy about that, but everyone passed.

There were also no .22's used, which is why I asked if it was really a good idea to start someone out on a .22. For experienced shooters they're valuable tools. They're great for lots of folks for lots of reasons, but your average young person (between ages 20-30) with no gun experience who wants a gun exclusively for self defense is more likely to see a .22 as a toy in my thinking. Need for a .22 is something that comes with time for a lot of folks. I've had a few people get bored with it inside of 50 rounds and simply refuse to shoot it anymore, so I guess it depends on the individual.

Thanks to all for the replies. All the different opinions, personal points of view, and experiences have let me know I should be a little more understanding. I still think any healthy young person should be able to handle 9mm if they're willing and able to carry/own a gun in that caliber (or larger), but now I can be a little more understanding of those few who have trouble with it.
 
That's a pretty quick progression for some. Some folks don't have problems with it, but others may need to shoot a rimfire for awhile before progressing.

I guess that as long as you don't push them to move up and demo each progression so they can get a feel for what they're getting into it's ok. But I don't think that you should feel the need to get them from rimfire to magnum in a single shooting session.
 
This has been an interesting thread.

When I started shooting handguns, it was DH's Sig Trailside at first. (Fun gun). But when I started thinking about getting a CHL, I had no clue what I wanted, or what I would really be able to shoot. I do have arthrits in my hands and it's a factor much of the time.

A friend of ours, and his dad, are serious gun nuts and when DH told him I was thinking about this, he invited us to the range. He brought revolvers, semiautos, 1911's, you name it. I did not like shooting a revolver because the DA trigger seemed really tough to me (don't even remember now what type it was, apart from being a .38 spl.) But his GLOCKS!!!! WOO HOO!!!!! I took to the .40 like a duck to water. Came away having shot up all his ammunition :rolleyes: and had a GREAT time.

I ended up with an XD-40 for my first handgun. Recoil? What recoil?

I don't see the .40 as being a "rough" caliber. I do agree that the .45 is paradoxically easier to shoot than the 9mm, although none of them bother me much (rifle recoil does, but not handguns. Go figure.)

Personally, I think a new shooter should ideally have that same chance I did...a variety of guns and let him/her try any that they're interested in. A .22 to start, for sure; but when they go up to larger calibers, just teach them ahead of time about riding out the recoil and about proper grip. Double ear protection, good sturdy grip, practice recoil followthrough before that first live shot, and get 'em thinking about how much fun they're about to have, rather than how loud/snappy it's going to be.

Springmom
 
You need a certain amount of controlled aggression to shoot a handgun well. This should translate into an aggressive stance, leaning into the recoil, which will dampen it considerably. I see so many people at the range who are doing their best to run from the shot, leaning backwards at absurd angles. You have to teach the gun who's boss.
 
You need a certain amount of controlled aggression to shoot a handgun well.
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This was something that really helped me. Once i started pretending this upcoming shot string was to save my life, my shooting really improved.
 
My spouse is one who can't handle the 9MM. It's actually more of an autoloader bias than anything else. Like an idiot I started her on a friend's HK USP 40. That ALMOST turned her off to handguns.

I wiped the slate clean and got her to come back and try a .22 revolver. Best decision I have ever made. She liked it. I moved her up to a .32 S&W Long which she liked better because it has a low recoil, but makes a bigger hole. Next cartridge was .38 S&W, which was no big deal. She actually settled on a .38 SPL Ladysmith. Of course, she shoots the 100 grain SWC bullets, but at least it's not a .22. She has been a trooper and fired every handgun caliber in my collection. She just didn't care for the autos.

Have the folks who think recoil is too much in a 9MM shoot a 38 SPL revolver with a 4 inch barrel. They might just think they discovered oil.
TJ
 
I usually recommend they "toughen up,"
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This is the opposite of how I shoot. I absolutely do not care about recoil and ignore it completely, accepting it. Fighting it off and controlling it by being tough does not provide good accuracy.

Shooting very heavy recoil taught me there was nothing to be afraid of. If that can be safely handled anything can. It was not doubt in myself that caused me problems in the beginning but a lack of faith in the equipment. Who the heck wants a gun to explode in their hands?

Advice? Thoughts? Should I leave the big noisy catridges out
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I started my kids out with highly supervised 44mag (age 7) using target loads and then gave them a 22 revolver. They did real good all by themselves after that. :D
 
I've introduced lots of people to handguns. My experience, regarding novices:

1. Good hearing protection is essential.

2. Everybody should start with a .22. It's the best way to familiarize yourself with a gun, without worrying about recoil.

3. Most women cannot easily rack a slide, and the snap of a slide puts some people off. Start with a revolver.

4. Start at seven yards or closer, so people can hit something.

5. Save Magnums and semi-auto centerfires for MUCH later.

6. J frames are guns for experts, because of their size (recoil, short size radius), heavier triggers (coil springs), and mini-sights.

7. It should be all fun at the beginning. Life and death defensive matters can be brought up later.

8. .380s in blowback guns have more felt recoil than bigger calibers. Forget them.

9. Many of us males are sometimes macho, posturing, insensitive jerks. So we think it's funny when somebody grimaces, squeals, or is shocked or stung by trying our big Magnums or .45 Colts. If this describes you, mend your ways or give up teaching.
 
Well, I took my mom shooting...

And I have to say it was a pretty wonderful experience. Her first time shooting, she did better than I'd ever expect anyone to do their first time, especially at 51 years old. I followed my original plan, and took every handgun I had to let her try.

She got bored with the .22 after one magazine. We'd gone over gun safety, handling, sighting, and a bunch of other topics the night before, and morning of - right before we left. I started her out at about 15 ft., and she put all of her shots on target, first try.

"Oh... this is like a toy!"

So we moved on up to 9mm, which she liked very much and shot well with. I kept her at 15 ft, and once again, she put about half of her shots in the 10-ring, the other half falling in the 9 and 8 rings. We moved to .38 Special, same thing. Then I gave her a crack at the .45ACP, which turned out to be her favorite. She shot better with the .45 than she shot with the .22... Go figure.

I asked her if she'd like to try some .357SIG in my new carry gun... a Glock 33 (subcompact, for all you non-Glockers). She said "Sure!" I warned her about the noise and recoil, and told her that I'd load her one round in the magazine... If she shot it, and liked it, she could shoot more. First I wanted her to watch me shoot it so that she could get an idea of the sound and flash.

I fired, looked back, and she was smiling, waiting for her turn. I put one round of ammo in the magazine, she charged the slide, and pointed downrange, and put a shot straight through the 10-ring at 20 ft. She didn't even ask, or wait for me to do it for her like times previous, she just ejected the mag and loaded up 3 more magazines. Turns out she likes my favorite auto-pistol round just as much as I do... From a Tiny gun, no less.

From there, we went on to try the venerable .357 Magnum. Same deal, she'd watch me shoot it to get an idea of noise/flash, then try one round herself before loading up a full cylinder. When I was d0one firing my cylinder, I looked back to see if she wanted to give it a try. Her eyes were about the size of dinner plates, and she was anxious to try the .357 Magnum for herself. This time, she asked me

"Is that as far as the target goes out?"

When I replied that it went out to 50", she moved her targets out to 40" and loaded the revolver with Remington 125gr. JSP's, pointed downrange, and put a shot right through the 10-ring of a silhouette target. I literally couldn't believe it. She was smiling, and adjusting her grip - having a hard time believing how well she was shooting... To be honest, I was having a hard time believing it too... I've NEVER seen a newbie shoot like that... Let alone a 51-year old, short-sighted newbie! And this was my MOM! My 5'1, 115lb (maybe?) mom, who never even let me own toy guns growing up... She was at the shooting range, outshooting people who carry concealed - and at 40", she was hitting the target... With a .357 Magnum! After that, she kept her targets at 40" the rest of the time we were there.

My mom probably put 250 rounds downrange last Saturday in various calibers, and she didn't miss ONE shot. She never once missed the target at any distance, and her wildest shots fell in the 7-ring of the silhouette targets. Using bullseye targets, all of her shots fell within the ink, except for ONE, which was still on the paper and on target. Her (minor) flinching issues seemed to be all but cured inside of her first 100 rounds. I know that's not the case, and that she just did incredibly well for her first time... But not only was I impressed, I was amazed. And not only does she now want a gun, she wants to start going to the range on a regular basis, and she also wants her carry permit. I wish someone had taken her shooting when I was a kid, and she was a screaming anti. :rolleyes:

SO...

-She got bored with .22lr after 9 rounds.
-She loved .357SIG, and says she wants to get a Glock 33 (just like mine). :)
-She really liked .357 Magnum.
-She thought .38 Special was kind of boring, but she liked shooting the revolver.
-She LOVED .45ACP, and shot best with it
-9mm was a close second to .45ACP

So now, I'm not so sure. If my 51 year old mom can not only handle, but flat out ENJOY shooting mid-bore magnum rounds, big bore pistol rounds, etc... then I'm not sure I can respect a young guy in his 20's or 30's who claims 9mm is too powerful to shoot. YMMV. I'm also glad I stuck to my original plan. She likes shooting, and wants to go often... If I had only taken a .22, it would have been a very short, and boring trip - and I doubt she would be as enthusiastic about shooting as she is now. The look of disgust on her face after shooting it was almost priceless... Almost like,

"Why did you bring this? Is this even a real gun?"

I also don't believe most women have problem racking a slide. My mom is 51 years old, has arthritis in her hands, AND emphysema... After going over proper technique and safe gun handling, she never had a single problem running a gun on her own. She didn't have any issues at the range whatsoever. Most guns I own are semi-autos, and she was able to rack the slide with no issues of any kind.

It looks like I have a new range buddy, and a convert to our side... not to mention a whole new thing in common with my mom. Life is good... :p
 
Cuz ~

Cool story, and great post. :D Now take her back again and again and again!


Golddog ~

I have never met a healthy adult woman who could not easily be taught to rack a slide. If you're encountering the problem often, it may be that you're not teaching them the easy way to do it. See http://www.corneredcat.com/RunGun/rack.htm for more about that.

pax
 
Pax, you bet! I think I'll get her a membership to my range for her birthday... Since that's in September, I've got plenty of time to take her everytime she wants to go, and I'd like to see if I can score her that G33 she wants as well(although I wonder how much she'd like a G26... hmmmm :) ).

Dad's next. :evil:
 
I've looked through all 3 pages and have yet to see the biggest problems.

1. Your friend is a grown man, and wants to think that as a grown man he knows what he's doing and isn't listening to your advice, it isn't an issue with recoil, it's his issue to apply the basic fundamentals of pistol shooting.

2. Some people can't be helped, Some people don't want help.

My wife had never shot a hand gun till she was 24 yr old, and used to shoot on the Camp Pendleton shooting team, my mother at 45yr old had never fired a hand gun till she came to visit for a week and she did quite well and now has a CCW permit... everyone can be taugh when they listen. How you teach is a factor to consider, just because you can shoot doesn't mean you can teach.

I've talked to guys at the range, at IDPA and IDSC matches, and given them advice; sometimes they come back and say that didn't work and sometimes they come back and say that worked great, if it didn't work change dirrections if it worked find the next fault to correct or area to work on. I've learned that civilians would love to pay for my time to teach them to shoot better, I wish I had more time to teach, although I still haven't charged anyone a dime, I just enjoy training, teaching pistol and fault checking pistol shooters takes a skilled eye, there are just so many things that effect a round fired from a pistol after the primer is struck. Out of the 8 coaches that work for me 2 can do a good job coaching pistol and 1 of them is great at it.

I do this for a liveing, I run a Marksmanship Training Unit in the Marine Corps, I can make a rifle shooter out of anyone, but pistol; I've had 2 this year that couldn't be helped... both of them thought they were doing a great job, neither would listen, luckly only one of them is required to fire.
 
If you are perfectly healthy and can't handle a 9mm then i don't know wha to say...
My 130 lbs wife says shooting 9mm feels like shooting a .22 ...she loves to shoot 45's, especially her Kimber Ultra CDP .45
 
I think alot of the flinch or the apprehension c omes from the unknown, whether it's a .22LR or 454 Casull. The very first time you shoot a firearm, for me atleast, I don't try for bullseyes or marksmanship.

I get a good firm grip on the firearm and get a feel for the trigger and recoil by putting some shots down range with no intention of hitting a perfect 10 Bull.

Gravel pits are good for this, they're eminently safe to shoot into without having to be a perfect marksman on the first few shots. After the first couple magazines, the unknown is no longer an issue and conditioning can begin to take hold to the point where even heavy recoil isn't bothersome at all.

I would say for instructing a potentially recoil sensitive person would be to get a few shots in safely downrange without serious sight alignment to get a feel for the recoil and what to expect with a following SA trigger for example.
 
Even when I show women the "easy" way to rack a slide, many continue to struggle with it, partly, I'm told, because of wrist/hand anatomy, and partly, I presume, because of culturally-ingrained awkardness about gun handling/fears.
 
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