Elk Rifle Selection?

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GreyMauser

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Looks like I'll go on my first Idaho elk hunt early next Fall. Besides the Safe Queens, the following are available. Which two should I take? Any particular loads?

7mm Rem Mag, custom DWM Mauser 98, wood stock in good condition but nothing special in the way of grain and checkering. Wouldn't mind putting new wood on it later.

Browning A-Bolt in synthetic SAKO style stock, no BOSS, barrel and action blueprinted, bedded, etc, also in 7mm RM.

30-06 commercial Mauser 98 in factory synthetic stock with Model 70 style 3-position safety.

Winchester M70 pre 64 Featherweight, also 30-06. Original except stock refinished. Shows as having been used a lot.

SAKO AV in 300 Remington Ultra Mag. Unmodified. Could use a custom wood stock someday as the present wood and checkering is uninspired. Heavy, though thats not a bad thing in this chambering.

Last is a Steyr-Mannlicher Prohunter in 376 Steyr with 20" barrel and short, untraditional synthetic stock. Sort of like a Jeff Cooper scout rifle except it mounts its scope over the receiver. Not too heavy.

All are accurate enough, the SAKO and Steyr being more so, and the Browning being the most accurate. All but the Steyr would mount glass in the 3-10 x 40 range. The Steyr could too, but I like it with a 1.5-6 x42.

As said, I would value advise on which two to take. No reason the chamberings need to match. Thanks, all.
 
From what I have heard from people who have hunted Elk, the hunts can be long and very arduous, and that it's absolutely neccessary to pack light and cut every ounce possible. That being said I would opt for the Steyr if you are profficient with it.
 
Like the others said take 2 rifles that shoot well for you.

Aside from that Florida is about sea level as compared to Idaho elk country, the oxygen content is less then 50% of what you are used to. That will work against you unless you are in unusually good shape. Exercise walk trot and carry a pack.
Good hunting and I hope you get a big one.
 
You can't go wrong - but I'd look beyond rifles to sights and maybe scabbards.

Guided hunt? What does the guide say?

I'd take Bob Hagel's advice of long ago and settle for something in the 2X7 range rather than the 3x10 -40mm objective. It's a rifle sighting system not a substitute for binoculars - I use mostly fixed power myself - my elk specialty rifle is a Cooper package Dragoon with the fixed power Scout scope in .376 - Nosler 260 grain bonded with H4895.

Are you going to be using horses? What do you have for a saddle scabbard and again I'd downsize the scope.

Given the mention of 2 rifles I take it you won't have to pack them both - at least a drop camp? On that basis I'd go with the Sako and the Steyr as being the most unlike and so covering the most possibilities. I could just as easily say the 2 Mauser 98's in 7mm and .30-'06 as being somewhat alike for convenience and for being Mauser 98's and so infinitely reliable under adversity.
 
What are you going on, a hunt or a fashion show?

What difference does the finish on the stock and how much use it shows make? The question is can you shoot it accurately...
 
GREY MAUSER -

Where are you going to be elk hunting?? Zone or Unit?? What time of the year??

If you shoot that Win. Featherweight .30-06 well, that's what I'd take. And what was said about too-powerful 'scopes is correct. Any good 2x7, or fixed 6x or 4x, will be just fine. So will a 1 1/2x5. There's some mountain country here that has some very thick trees and brush.

So long as you know how to to shoot accurately, that '06 with 180 grains Nosler Partition bullets will down any elk on the North American continent.

7mm Magnum with 160 grains Nosler Partitions will do the same.

Buy yourself a GOOD binocular that is weatherproof. 7x42s or 8x42s are the ticket. DO NOT USE YOUR 'SCOPE AS A BINOCULAR!

Be sure and ask your outfitter if he supplies your saddle scabbard. Ordinarily, the outfitter supplies a saddle scabbard. If not, there are several out there that you can buy before you go that will work just fine. If you can find a good used one out there somewhere, it'll do.

Get in shape! These mountains here in Idaho are steep!! You'll have a lot more fun on your trip if you are not huffin' 'n a'puffin' and having to stop and rest every eight or ten steps. :rolleyes:

Good luck.

L.W.
 
I shot a bull in the Frank Church/Selway wilderness in '04 and was thankful I had just purchased a lightweight 30-06 Ruger M77. The 3x9x40mm scope was just right.
30-06 is generally considered the max for lightweights. I would carry the 7MM mag not so much as a spare, but for days when long shots are probable. My guide told me that the 7 mmm's are just right if you can handle the extra weight (not me) and that many of his clients were fortunate to have them when 400-500 yard shots presented themselves. I really didn't see much terrain where shots over 200 yards were possible because of the trees. I think everything within 30 miles of the Montana border is high rainfall and heavy timber. All of it is steep, basins,mesas and flat ridges are practically non-existant. Which unit are you hunting in?

Edit: Don't worry too much about the oxygen, you'll be hunting at about 6,000 feet. Nothing like Colorado.
 
My choice would also be the M70 in 06. I have hunted most of lower half of Idaho below the Salmon river from the Oregon border to Wyoming/Montana border with a M70 in 30-06 with a K4 Weaver scope and it has always been more then enough gun. However, if you are going to be in the Clearwater area the brush is thick and the range is close so a heavier bullet with slower velocities may be beneficial. Please don't hunt in Idaho if your one of those individuals takes the 400+ yard shot, that's not the way hunt elk here. Every year we come across the evidence where idiots take too long of shot and/or are poor are marksmen and nd up wounding 100's of our quality elk each year that go off and die.
 
Some good advice from some obviously experienced hunters.

Highlights of what I like best.

Any of the mentioned calibers will work just fine...YES

With the exception of the .300 RUM which I noticed nobody else mentioned either. The RUM is too much of a good thing. Can you spell "meat damage".:barf:

Don't over glass your rifle. YES.

This is one of the most common errors I see with hunters new to the west. If you can see it you can hit it. I guarantee that you can see an elk good enough to shoot it at WAY past your useful range with even a 2X power scope and definitely with a 7X scope. I can also promise you that too powerful of a scope is worse than useless in dark timber or on a moving critter at any range especially close range. When walking around keep that darn scope on the lowest setting. you'll have time to turn it up if you need to you will never have time to turn it down if you need it in a hurry. (Major pet peeve of mine!:) )

Don't take shots past 400 yards YES...

I know that there are lots of guys who think they can do it. I know there are lots of guys who can pull it off sometimes. But I also know of a hell of lot of guys who aren't telling you the truth when it comes to actual range and wounded or missed animals. you know that show best of the west on the Outdoor Channel? the one where guys shoot animals at stupid long range for the camera? I happen to have some top secret inside outfitter information on those boys and some SPECTAULAR screw ups at not so spectacular ranges on a hunt not to long ago. Of course you won't see them on the film footage. there is no better shooting partner than the editing room. :rolleyes:

Get in shape you'll enjoy your hunt more..YES

The better the walking shape you are in the more fun you’ll have on your hunt.
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RANT MODE ON.............


The worst piece of advice given was the one about using the 7MM on days that you think may include long shots.

With all due respect. First off the 7MM does not give ANY practical edge over a .30-06 at long range. Balistically speaking the 7MM is nothing more than a belted necked down 06 in the first place. What it makes up for in slightly greater velocity with similar weight bullets it loses in diameter and it starts to suffer with heavier bullets. The two for all intensive purposes are a wash as far as killing power are concerned.

The reason that the 7MM still suffers from a bad rep as far as a wounder is because people have this false belief that it is some kind of a long range wonder thumper. This false belief causes some people to take stupid long range shots with lightweight bullets (so they can get more muzzle velocity) at large animals like an elk. The result is often a wounded non recovered animal. The excuse is often "bullet failure".

The simple answer to this quandary is get real good with your chosen rifle and learn to shot it well within it's practical range. Then learn how to stalk to within that practical range before taking a shot at an animal. Discipline yourself to not take shots beyond that practical range. If you can't get to within 300 yards of an animal the problem is not with your rifle.

THE 7MM IS NOT A GOOD CHOICE FOR "LONG RANGE" ELK SHOOTING. It gives no advantage over a .30-06 in any way shape or form on large animals at long range. No matter what the gun scribes of yesteryear had to say about it.

RANT MODE OFF......;)
 
Browning A-Bolt in synthetic SAKO style stock, no BOSS, barrel and action blueprinted, bedded, etc, also in 7mm RM.

30-06 commercial Mauser 98 in factory synthetic stock with Model 70 style 3-position safety.

Last is a Steyr-Mannlicher Prohunter in 376 Steyr with 20" barrel and short, untraditional synthetic stock. Sort of like a Jeff Cooper scout rifle except it mounts its scope over the receiver. Not too heavy.
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I'd go with the Browning if it's really accurate for you, but the Mauser .30-06 if it's only a little less accurate. Both are sturdy, but the Mausers seem to define "packer-proof". Both have synthetic stocks, too. I wouldn't take a wood-stocked rifle on a big trip, but then I seem to be a bad weather magnet.

For that same reason, I'd go with the Steyr (and the lower powered scope). Seems like a heck of a saddle outfit, quick to deploy (after getting off the horse, of course), accurate. The only reason not to take it would be if the recoil bothers you at all.

As for the "7mm for long shots", I agree with H&Hhunter. I do take a 7mm for expected long shots, but it's a 7mm Lazzeroni Firebird that I've shot many, many rounds through over the years. It DOES have an advantage over the .30-06, but only at a price. And I'll never take it again if there's any possibility of short range shots. Too much wasted meat, and a headshot is not always appropriate.
 
Lots of good advice from the western folks, they know about Elk and Mtns. I would like to add this little tidbit. Every year as far back as I can recall, I have heard the horror stories from Non-Res. hunters about Outfitters. And most of time the hunters are right. The big problem, the hunter didn't check the service out. Make sure you check your service out thru the Game & Fish and other folks who have used this fellow.
The failure to do this results in a very expensive pony ride.:scrutiny:
 
I hunted elk my first time this year.

#1 -- lightweight rifle is an awfully nice thing when you're hiking at 10K feet.
#2 -- I had way more magnification than I needed. Next time I'll probably use a 1.5-5x.

Mike
 
I have found there are several secrets to elk hunting:

1. Be in good shape. If you don't have hills to climb, climb stairs -- a lot of them.

2. Don't carry too much gear -- try to get by on what you can put in your pockets.

3. Have good binoculars and the skill and patience to use them. Carry a small closed cell foam pad so you can sit comfortably while you glass (the ground is cold!)

4. Any reasonably powerful rifle will put down an elk, from the 6.5X55 to the .375 H&H. So take a rifle you can shoot well and carry all day.

5. You don't need a lot of scope -- a fixed 4X is fine, as well as the lower power variable.

6. Have good topo maps of the area and know how to use them. A GPS is also very handy to have.
 
If you really can take 2 rifles, might as well sight them in for the same ammo, practice with 'em both. You'd hate to reach for a 30-06 reload to discover 7mm on your belt.

I use a 3x9x40mm variable on a 30-06, leave it on 3. I've hunted with it enough to know I can make a shot at 300 yards without thinking too much. I use a 165gr bullet @ 2800 fps but there are plenty of 180gr bullets @ 2700 fps just as good. I've hunted with both. If you don't handload, I suggest Federal Premium ammunition.

A LOT of elk are shot at close range, depends on your technique and your ability to get into dark timber.

Take rifles you have confidence in and can shoot. Practice shooting as much as you can.

Walk a lot, walk some more. All that walking will break in your boots before you get there.

Forget style, a plastic stock won't warp in wet weather or crack if dropped off a horse.
 
Other people's mileage may differ, but I recommend a rifle you can shoot well from the standing, unsupported position. Forget about bench rests, and don't waste much time in sitting or prome shooting. Shoot standing.

My "understudy" rifle is the Gae Bolga, my M82 Kimber in .22 LR, and I buy ammo in bulk. I've put close to 200,000 rounds through this rifle in the 20+ years I've owned it.

My game is to shoot an NRA 11-bull, 50 foot target at 50 feet, putting two magazines full (10 rounds) on each bull. I work the bolt from the shoulder, only lowering the rifle to reload. My standard is "nothing outside the 8 ring" and that makes for pretty good practice. Of course, I also shoot a fair to middlin' amount of full-bore loads in my elk rifle, Bigfoot Wallace.

I can recall suddenly jumping an elk in the dark timber, and feeling that sick feeling -- "Oh, no! I had my head up my *ss and didn't see him! He's gone!" And then realized the crosshairs were tracking him. My conscious mind was studdering, trying to count point (4-point rule) and as the elk jumped down into a logging road, the rifle went off, and the elk was dead as a hammer. I certainly didn't kill that elk -- it was the autopilot I developed with training that did it.
 
Other people's mileage may differ, but I recommend a rifle you can shoot well from the standing, unsupported position. Forget about bench rests, and don't waste much time in sitting or prome shooting. Shoot standing.

My "understudy" rifle is the Gae Bolga, my M82 Kimber in .22 LR, and I buy ammo in bulk. I've put close to 200,000 rounds through this rifle in the 20+ years I've owned it.

My game is to shoot an NRA 11-bull, 50 foot target at 50 feet, putting two magazines full (10 rounds) on each bull. I work the bolt from the shoulder, only lowering the rifle to reload. My standard is "nothing outside the 8 ring" and that makes for pretty good practice. Of course, I also shoot a fair to middlin' amount of full-bore loads in my elk rifle, Bigfoot Wallace.
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Vern,

That is some of the BEST darn elk / general big game hunting advice I've heard in a long time!!! :) :) Thank you!!!

The thing that most people miss when they start talking about hunting rifles is just the point that Vern just made.

Forget about a eargasplitinloudenboomer with a Hubble telescope on it. Pick a rifle of adequate caliber (06, 7MM, 338, .358 ETC ETC) out fit with sensible useable sights, glass or iron and then learn how to use the little devil. Practice with until it becomes a an extension of your body.

I've got two rifles that I feel that way with. My old bush battered .375H&H and my .470NE. Like Vern when I raise these rifles they just go where they need to automatically. They have become instinctual extensions of my mind and body. My little .30-06 is on the fast track to becoming on of the chosen few. ;)

Everything I own is stocked the same and glassed the same for height and eye relief, that helps a lot too. My scope is a Leupold VXIII 1.75X6 I have them on every one of my scoped rifles except two. A scout with a scout scope and a .300 that has a VX III in 2.5X8.

PS

My understudy is Kimber M-84 hunter in 22LR. I like to get those bags of small toy plastic dinosaurs at Wal-Mart. I set them up at 50 to 100' and shoot them off hand just as fast as I can. Same as you, working the bolt on the shoulder.

With my double I load lead loads at 1200FPS and practice off hand shooting at wood chunks. I keep them jumping and practice reloading until I can do it without letting the motion stop before getting back into action.

This type of practice pays big when you required to act fast. many time I've reloaded so fast and automatically that I didn't even realize that I'd done. Kind of like breathing.
 
I tried a 'practical' hunting course once... but you need a LOT of space and positive backdrops.

More or less you and a buddy set up deer/elk targets (or any kind of target, like a milk jug) at various ranges in 'the woods' over a 300-500 yard walk in 'the woods'. The shooter has no idea where the targets are, the 'guide' does. Engage each target, at range as SOON as you spot it.

RE: practice with a .22... that is THE best reason to buy a "full sized" rimfire.

Re shooting standing... I've done most of my lethal shooting from a crouch, or on one knee while using a sling... very few long shots from prone.

The sling is your friend, learn to use it.

Vern, nice Cucuchlain reference.
 
Re shooting standing... I've done most of my lethal shooting from a crouch, or on one knee while using a sling... very few long shots from prone.

The sling is your friend, learn to use it.
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Oh, I don't advocate actually shootig at game from the standing position when you have any other reasonable choice. What I advocate is doing most of your practice from that position.

A man who can shoot well from the standing unsupported position needs only occasional practice from other positions. But a man who always practices from the sitting position with sling (or from a bench rest) will not be able to shoot from standing very well.


Vern, nice Cucuchlain reference.
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The uneducated (and no doubt unwashed) Sassenach are wondering what we're talking about. Let's not tell them.:D
 
You need a hard hitting caliber with controlled expansion bullets. I'm from Idaho and have hunted Elk all my life in the Idaho Mountains and what you do not want is to hit an elk with a poor placed shot or inadequate bullet and have it run miles straight down hill to the bottom of a drainage. Hard hitting controlled expansion bullets that will not come apart at high velocities or when they hit bone are what you want.

I'm not a big fan of the 06 for elk where there is the opportunity for a wounded elk to run into "no mans land" where I have to pack him out miles straight up a mountain.

In the rural areas (around agricultural areas) of Idaho where elk frequent and there is easy access to roads and trails then the 06 is a dandy choice. In the wilderness or deep mountains I'll be packing something that hits harder. I have had outstanding results with a .338 Winchester Mag.
 
You need a hard hitting caliber with controlled expansion bullets. I'm from Idaho and have hunted Elk all my life in the Idaho Mountains and what you do not want is to hit an elk with a poor placed shot or inadequate bullet and have it run miles straight down hill to the bottom of a drainage. Hard hitting controlled expansion bullets that will not come apart at high velocities or when they hit bone are what you want.
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My elk rifle is Bigfoot Wallace, a custom '03 in .35 Brown-Whelen. My handloads drive a 225 grain Nosler Partition Jacket to an honest 2,800 fps.

But I have confidence in my ability with that rifle. If I couldn't shoot it well (and its previous owner was literally afraid of the recoil of full charge loads), I'd rather have something more manageable and rely on accurate shot placement.

I have never seen a quality .30 caliber bullet of sufficient weight fail on elk -- I have seen people who used poor bullets, light bullets and smaller calibers fail, and I have seen poorly-placed shots. But a good Nosler PJ or similar .30 caliber bullet put in the right place at around 2,700 fps seems to do the job.

Similarly, I can't think of a case where I've seen a more powerful rifle succeed with a poorly placed bullet.
 
No doubt the .338 win is a great elk round.

But the most common reason people wound elk is because they try to shoot them a gun writter ranges with thunder magnums and fail to put the bullet into the goods.

I've never seen an elk hit in the vitals with a quality bullet from an 06 go too far.

The other problem I see are guys shooting light bullets of poor construction because they want more muzzle velocity. Of course they are screwing themselves in so many ways by doing that.

The lighter bullet will have a lower BC and a lower SD meaning it'll have less ebergy and velocity at range than a heavier bullet and it'll penetrate less at all ranges. GREAT CHOICE!!;)
 
Two years ago I came across a pissed off hunter in the backwoods of northern Idaho that said he had "hit three bulls that year and had not found any of them". I about got sick when he told me this. Come to find out he was shooting a 7mm Mag at around 500 yards with 120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip Bullets (not made for heavy game).

The guy said he had been hunting with those for years and they were the "best hunting bullets made" because they "explode on impact". He wouldn't listen when I told him you didn't want your bullets to "explode on impact".
 
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