Saw a Saiga 12 in action this weekend

My thoughts are based on private ownership. Seems utterly impractical in such a role - when are you ever going to lop off twenty rounds from two boxes at a home invader?

Katrina. Watts riots. Can happen again. Disasters happen.

Mob attack to get your generator/store contents/prescription drugs/daughters. Or someone seriously, seriously hopped up on drugs who won't even notice that they're shot, where it might take two or three buckshot rounds to literally physically take them apart to stop them?

Who knows? And you ARE coming off as a "Unless it's my duck gun, I don't care" anti, here.

Half the guns out there are for FUN. The same could be said of my Tokarev pistols. Yeah, they're impractical single-actions that can't be carried chambered safely, and they'll slice right through Level II armor. Does that make them "cop-killers with no legitimate purpose", as the Bradyites like to crow? Or does it make them FUN, since they make a big flash and noise?

Man, gimme' the money that something like that must cost and I'll put it to good use on one or more guns that won't be destined for safe queens.

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$300 and change? Research is a good thing.

Kinda figured we needed a pic in the thread:

Dangit Deerhunter!

I already wanted one *before* I saw that picture........


Now I *REALLY* want one.....

ten rounds in ten seconds

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Trust me, they can go a whole lot faster than that.

So (me being me), I'm still confused - where does one get magazines for these beasties that hold more than five rounds?

AGP makes a 10 rounder. I haven't used one yet, so don't have an opinion on the quality. You can look them up on the Saiga12.com forums.

Personally I bought a bunch of the original 8 rounders when they first came in.

One of these things, if they're light and portable enough, might be just the thing for all those Alaskan woodsmen that are paranoid of bears.

MCgunner, if you want light and portable, I've got one that is literally the same size as an MP5.

http://www.fbmginc.com/index.php?pa...ufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

Looks quite illegal and I'd want some barrel to get some velocity behind a Breneke slug if I'm shooting at a 1500 lb browny, but looks like just the thing for an "entry weapon". Our gun club helped the sherriff's dept buy an MP5 once for such use in drug raids. They hardly ever shoot anyone around here, OR make any drug raids, but it was good PR for the club, I guess. LOL

How does it "look illegal"??

8" shotgun barrel, maybe???? Is it rifled? It's a class 3 firearm I'd think. And, most states outlaw class 3 firearms for use against game, whether for self defense or not, if I'm not mistaken. Nothing to keep the police from using 'em, though, for entry guns. That's what this thing looks like it'd be the cat's meow for, pretty awesome weapon. And, in Alaska, a longer barrel wouldn't weigh that much or be that hard to tote. 18.5" and you got yourself some decent bear protection with Breneke slugs.

I was making a joke, because there is nothing lighter or smaller in a semi 12 ga. It was designed for entry teams and door breaching, but it is pretty damn cool for recreational use.

And it is legal. It is an NFA item (SBS) and you must pay the applicable tax.

I sell these. That link is to my webpage.

How does it "look illegal"??

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It's black. Black guns look illegal. They are very, very scarey. All guns should be pink. Pink is not scarey or illegal looking.

Do I have to explain everything?

You can get a class three license, but that doesn't mean it's legal by game laws to shoot bear even if it's legal to own even for self defense. I was speaking of it in the terms of a practical use by an outdoorsman, not as a swat team member or just a class three fanatic. I have a friend that owns and I've shot a select fire 9mm Cobray with silencer, paid 400 bucks in class 3 license taxes for the privilege and the guy wouldn't sell it without the silencer. So I know about class three guns. I went through thousand rounds of 9mm in that thing when he brought it down in about five minutes. I couldn't afford it's apatite even if I was into such things. I'm not really a tacticool kinda guy, though, and he admits it's just a toy.

I've been around the shooting thing for about 48 years now (from the age of 6) and have held an FFL and have been an NRA member. I ain't that stupid. But, I do not see the point in most class three stuff for practical uses. They're just fun to own and shoot, good enough reason I reckon and the second ammendment confirms your right to own one.

I still think with an 18.5 (legal to use) barrel in bear country would be about the hot stuff for bear defense for those that worry about that sort of thing. If the recoil is that light and it holds 10 rounds, that's a lot of firepower up close and personal with a bear using Breneke slugs. You read about brownies taking multiple shots from .338s to stop. I don't know if I'd wanna depend on a pump gun. You ever fired a slug in a pump? You're pointing 12 o'clock from the recoil! If you could spit the rounds out the way you're sayin' with the Saiga, it could be just the ticket for the Alaskan backwoodsman, fisherman in bear country.

So I know about class three guns.

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There is no such thing as a Class III license. It is a one time transfer tax of $200. The only license involved is for people like me who build/sell this stuff for a living.

You can get into a suppresor for as little as $200 + $200. I've even sold a limited run of $100 suppresors. So it isn't a rich man's game by any means. SBS/SBR is just $200 in addition to the cost of the gun.

And for your original post, there is a huge difference between game laws and self defense. So if I shoot a bear that is about to eat me, with an SBS, then it is irrelevant.

Well, Larry had to wait three months on that Cobray for his background check to clear. License or no, you have to go through the hoops as if it were a license. At least there's nothing to renew.

We're at 6 weeks right now for approvals. Fastest I've gotten lately is 3 weeks. Slowest was 10. Plus you only do that the first time that you get the item, and then you're done.

I'm on a personal crusade to increase the number of NFA items in the world.

I'm on a personal crusade to increase the number of NFA items in the world.

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LOL, I understand. When I had an FFL and was a "kitchen table dealer"... ...I was on such a crusade to arm Calhoun County with SKS rifles. I'd put 'em on football pots at work, sell 'em for 20 bucks profit just for my time and effort, sold tons of the things. I guess I ought to think about doing the FFL thing again, jumping the hoops, doing gun shows now that I'm partially retired. I didn't have a lot of time for it, then and Clinton finally scared me into FFL retirement.

Russian eh? Makes sense - they're hard up for cash. Does Saiga offer a Edsel model too?

11-87 flimsey?

I am willing to bet the majority of shotgun owners would much prefer an 11-87 for practicality over a saiga. and calling one flimsey is just plain asking for conflict. now dont get me wrong, i like the saiga, but a shotgun is unique in the way that it can fire shot at moving objects, the saiga shotgun is cool, but i doubt you could hit **** for moving targets other than a full speed running person(which aint fast at all compared for what shotguns are designed for). you can deer hunt, hunt birds, defend you home and have something that will be a nice piece to pass on to the grandkids(although i wish my grandfather gave me a saiga for my first shotgun). maybe a saiga will be on my list of guns to own one day, but as of now, on a tight budget, i want guns that do more than just look cool and shoot fast. JMHO flame me all you want, i will not be offended and my opinion is not changing(on this subject at least), that i can assure you.

i will not be offended and my opinion is not changing(on this subject at least), that i can assure you.

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Nothing like keeping an open mind.

Well, I've only put maybe fifty thousand rounds through various shotguns, most of them made by Remington, and my current favorite is a Saiga, but hey, what do I know?

I am willing to bet the majority of shotgun owners would much prefer an 11-87 for practicality over a saiga. and calling one flimsey is just plain asking for conflict. now dont get me wrong, i like the saiga, but a shotgun is unique in the way that it can fire shot at moving objects, the saiga shotgun is cool, but i doubt you could hit **** for moving targets other than a full speed running person(which aint fast at all compared for what shotguns are designed for). you can deer hunt, hunt birds, defend you home and have something that will be a nice piece to pass on to the grandkids(although i wish my grandfather gave me a saiga for my first shotgun). maybe a saiga will be on my list of guns to own one day, but as of now, on a tight budget, i want guns that do more than just look cool and shoot fast. JMHO flame me all you want, i will not be offended and my opinion is not changing(on this subject at least), that i can assure you.

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I totally understand where you're coming from and I'm not into tacticool, but lots of people are and it's their right to own what they want so long as they got the money. Won't be no Saigas in my gun cabinet, either, since I don't really have a good use for one and prefer what I have, sporting guns for the hunting I do. I got the home defense shotgun thing covered with a little coach gun twice pipe that is going to do hunting duty also. But, I can see some applications for this thing, such as the Alaskan bear defense senario, not just law enforcement uses.

Anyway, I counted 'em today, got 19 long guns (five are shotguns) and 20 handguns. I got three new/new to me firearms in the last 3 months including a new shotgun, so I sorta need to chill. Can't afford a divorce lawyer. :banghead:

This vid should put to rest the thought that the S-12 is slow. He posts on the S-12 forums and is from Finland. He is not bumpfiring and the gun is not full auto.

http://users.tkk.fi/~stnurmi/PJ_saiga_01.mpg


I sold my 870 Express (still kicking myself for that one) to fund my S-12. If I could go back in time I would have both shotguns. Anyway I wanted something fun and practical with the "cool-factor." As far as practicality it throws slugs as well as any smoothbore and I dropped a doe DRT on opening day with it. I haven't shot skeet or birds with it as I don't participate in those activities yet, but I have a two rd mag just in case. The only thing I don't like is the only chokes that will attach to the factory threads have to be ordered from Russia. Some people have had their bbls threaded to accept polychokes and others.

My S-12 is still box stock, but my custom wood furniture is done and ready to ship to me. I spec'd out the furniture with a limbsaver pad before I even shot the gun and am now thinking I don't need the limbsaver. The recoil is so soft with slugs. I will be converting it to pistol grip AK configuration. I'm going for the classic wood AK look vs. evil black plastic. So far it's everything I want in a semi shotty, but I have a craving for a pump again. I'll likely add a Mossy 500/590 later on.

SUre, maybe i was a little harsh

that comment about the11-87 being flimsey just got to me. i have nothing against those who have them and like i said earlier i think that they are cool in thier own way. the 11-87 and the saiga cannot even be compared however, they are completely different tools. but if you must compare them, an modified 11-87 or 1100 can serve the same purpose as the saiga better than the saiga could ever fill the shoes of the 11-87/1100 in shooting game or clay or even the ocasional 3 gun. i have a very open mind when it comes to these sorts of thing s, until i have first hand experience with them(which i have) and therefore my mind is made up. when i win the lottery and buy all the other guns higher on my list, you might find one in the back of the safe!!