edged training

While I haven't seen Thompson's videos, a training partner has. He told me the strategy is significantly based on keeping distance from your adversary, and preferably having a bowie-sized knife. In fact, I think Lynn even calls it "long range knife fighting".

Now, this makes perfect sense if you're in a knife duel. However, in today's world, it's unlikely you'll be in a bowie knife duel. The reality of criminal assaults is that if you have your knife out then the bad guy likely doesn't (in which case, if you can't escape, you *want* to be close to make your weapon effective), and if the bad guy has his knife out, you'll likely be dealing with him empty-hands until you can escape, finish the fight, or make time and space to pull your own weapon. There's a place for knife-to-knife in training, but if you're training for reality-based self-defense and not West Side Story, most of your training time will be spent on other scenarios. In my opinion, any training tape that spends the majority of its time dealing with knife-to-knife is dealing in lower-probability scenarios.

Best edged weapons tapes I've found are from Shivworks. Very reality-based, not focused on knife-to-knife duels but criminal assaults.

Mike's stuff is all based on folders.

Steeltiger,

Not that I'm Captain Obvious or anything, but knives are different than guns in that the gun holder feels in total control even at a distance, since all he needs to do is move his finger. The difference is critical. Against a knife assault, I wouldn't depend on being able "to back just out of range until I initiate a counter". The problem is, a knife assault is sudden and starts close-in. A guy with a knife knows his advantage is only when he's close, so that's where he'll try to initiate hostilities. Your ability to fully dictate range is often limited. In my knife defense training, I'm spending more and more time defending against a close-in explosive attack, because that's how I think things often happen. Unlike a gun, a knife wielder won't be standing at range staring at you with his knife out, more likely when the knife is out he's already trying to stick you with it. Not that it's impossible that you and the bad guy will both be at range looking at each other, westside story style, but it's highly unlikely. Both of you being armed with knives at the same time is highly unlikely by itself; him being armed with a knife and just standing there at range is more unlikely still. That's the first mindset shift that needs to happen, IMO. Not fight. Not duel. Assault.

This is all assuming the bad guy has his knife out, as opposed to the situation where you have yours out.

The funny scar on my left thumb was from a razor blade melted into a toothbrush handle on the West Wing of the MD House of Corruption, 1978.

The one halfway down the right side of my back was made by a toilet brush with the bristles broken off and the netal part sharpened on a concrete floor, 1978, also, on the South Wing.

20 years in Max Units has given me some experience on this.

First, it's hardly ever Cowboy vs Apache style. Mostly, a shank is drawn from concealment and used fast and hard. Held point down, it's used to penetrate the upper body and head 1-3 times, then the assailant disengages. Total time of engagement is less than 5 seconds. Think, icepick wielded by a member of the Manson Family.

When it's knife to knife, usually the winner bleeds also.

When attacked by someone with a knife, often the only choice we get to make is where to be stabbed at.

Disengage, scream, evade, counter, get the heck out. If you've a knife, get busy.

Caution a bit gorey

I recieved, these in an email entitled "why cops shoot guys with knives." Apparently the officer in question had edged training and decided to disarm his opponent.

I also *think* I saw this in the Dogbrothers/Gabe Suarez tapes.

so first priority is to break the knee or an arm and get away, (then draw...)

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Here's what my problem is. If you are going to get attacked. There's no guarantee that you are going to be able to switch gears mentally to know that you are being attacked. In other words your OODA loop will be broken.
I know I've seen a clip(believe it was on youtube) where one guy with a knife cut down 5-6 officers. It was in another country but they were armed with guns, and were spread out.

http://dogbrothers.com/product_info.php?products_id=118

Check out the video clip.

In at least one instance even Gabe Suarez couldn't draw his weapon fast enough to fend off the knife attacker. And he *KNEW* that his sparring partner was going to come at him. Kind of puts things into prespective. IF he with HIS training can get jumped, how well would you or I fare?

Dave's remarks are pretty consistent with conversations I've had with COs. Note, though, that a prison-style ambush is definitely a worst case. Street style knife attacks sometimes look like that, but not always. In any case, it's a difficult situation to train for, from the point of view of explosiveness and range, and also Mandirigma's remarks about being behind on the OODA loop. When role-playing this type of attack, I've never seen "break the knee" work as a primary strategy. That kind of thing could perhaps have a higher chance of working if the situation started from longer range and the victim had knowledge beforehand that the assault was about to happen.

I don't think there's any great answer to "in-close surprise attack", but the best I've been able to find is to develop a good default response that both stops the initial knife attack and addresses the bad guy's forward drive -- if you don't address both at the same time, very quickly, you end up toast. The default response is important because usually you won't have knowledge beforehand about what will happen and how, so this all needs to work off something like a flinch, unless the bad guy has shown all his cards beforehand (which does sometimes happen in real life).

The Phillipino fighting styles Arnis, Escrima, Kali, deal with edged weapons, up close, including an edged weapon in both hands. Long range for them is being able to engage the opponent's weapon (they use sticks and swords too). Medium range is being able to hit your opponent's arm, close range is reaching you opponent's torso. It's fast, and the intent is to deliver several thrusts and slashes to the opponent, then move out and assess the damage, then back in if necessary. If you've ever seen the old vid Surviving Edged Weapons, Dan Inosanto is using Phillipino style. Most of the more recent folks seem to be using the same stuff, perhaps simplified, perhaps better, or maybe not. The previous comment that the winner will be bleeding too is correct. I'd prefer to train with a style that covers as many different range options, and then train train train to try and lessen the chance of some sort of reaction "short circuit".

LD

The previous comment that the winner will be bleeding too is correct.

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Just to emphasize my earlier point, I think that point is accurate but it's important not to focus on it, because in real life, it's highly unlikely that both you and the bad guy will have your knives out at the same time. If you're spending most of your time doing knife-to-knife (a common complaint about FMA), arguably you're not training for the high-percentage situations. So, I think you accept the "everyone will be bleeding if it's knife to knife" as true, and then move on to spend relatively more time training higher-percentage scenarios. I think Dave would agree, knife-to-knife isn't the common scenario.

Id have to agree alot with Joe T..

using a knife takes commitment.. If somone intends on using a knife against you, you might not know it untill yer poked..

I believe empty hand combat is the first and most important practice, of anyone who is serious about defending themselves..

Ive found various styles of ShaoLin "kungFu" to be the most applicable form of defence, with or without a weapon.. in 13yrs of study.

but to each their own..
just my 2..

ip.

a nother note..
If you and an opponent both have knifes, and not within striking distance.. take that opportunity to make alot of noise, and withdraw!

ip

If you're spending most of your time doing knife-to-knife (a common complaint about FMA), arguably you're not training for the high-percentage situations.

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A couple points. First, with FMA there is a reason why a lot of instructors stick with knife to knife. First off, one of the basic premises is: HAVE KNIFE. Sounds rhetorical but a lot of it is to get you into a position to get your opponents knife. OR buys you time to draw your own knife. A lot of people think that with it comes down to it you'll be focusing on the knife (after all thats what is going to cut you). Main point is to notice what sides the blade is coming at you from.

"Flow" (I know there are other terms for it in other Martial Arts) is unfocusing, relying on muscle memory. Acting and reacting to body and weapon position. Kind of like how a lot of people go into automatic mode when they drive (Do you remember what the last pedistrian was wearing on your drive home? Probably not, but you steered your vehicle in a manner where they were not in any danger.). Response to a knife charge: Step (outward, inward), pass/disarm/control, strike. Where exactly, I can't tell you depends on the positions of your opponent. This is why the development and attainment of "flow" is desirable. Its kind of a constant Observe and Orient state. Decide and Act occur instantaneously.

Secondly, knife-work and stick work translate both ways. The movements are the same, but the ranges and targets differ slightly. I feel confident enough to pick up almost any weapon (with the exception of full sized axes, and heavy bastard/claymore style swords) To a search on traditional filippino blades, they vary vastly. The last group I trained with emphisized(sp?) improvized weapons. "You are the weapon, everything else is a tool."

Lastly, a lot of instructors tend to stick to knife work because of injuries. Over the years I have broken fingers, knuckles and had hairline fractures in both wrists from bungled drills, and sparring. Working both with and without padded gloves and sticks. Once you sustain an injury like that, the best you can do is work through your uninjured sides strikes. Generally if its your first injury in FMA, especially if it was someone elses fault it'll deter you from sticking with the program. Generally even with aluminum trainers the worst off you get are some deep bruises. Which is very common in ANY martial art.

I personally don't think that you can attain proper edged training from a video tape. It takes proper instruction, and a lot of practice and sparring.

Joe, you have a point, but im refering to after the first counter to back off and acess. This is why I also want to study unarmed combat likley as not I wont have time to draw, so first priority is to break the knee or an arm and get away, (then draw...)

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Here's the deal, once someone commits to attacking you with a knife. They are NOT going to back off. They stop sticking after you stop twitching.

If in the case you get someone who DOES back off. Its because they are accessing how badly they cut you. Knife fighters are trained to systematically destroy your ability to fight. That graze you barely felt on the inside of your right forearm means that now it is a club. You won't be able to close your fist. If you are right handed (which the majority of people are) you are now at a disadvantage.

At close range{ with a gun} I would attempt to break a knee, disarm and fire if absolutly necessary (his gun), but in this instance i would not want to increase rang even for a second.

I don't know if youve ever wached ''cops'' but in all the times the cop has a gun to his head he does nothing, even when he's presented with an oppertunity

I do like close in fighting

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Repeat after me: Close range is BAD

Don't get me wrong you have to train for it. But all in all its not a place you really want to be.

mandirigma. good points.
I agree actual training is a must for proper aplication of techniques, I too would emphasize this..
I also agree that ANY form of training is good training, beit knife to knife, etc.. practicing any and every scenario, will only help a persons versatility to a situation.

But I dont agree that every knife attacker will not stop untill yer done twitching.
also, not every attact froma knife is effective, nor are very many criminal attackers using a knife, adequately (if at all) trained in the application of a blade/and able to disable with the first strike.
these are VERY situational aspects, as is EVERY defensive stiation.

good topic.

ip.

But I dont agree that every knife attacker will not stop untill yer done twitching.

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Truth, but for me its an experience and mentality thing. I've only lived here in the States for about seven years now. I've lived overseas in second and third world countries. I train with the mentality that if it gets close enough in for blades they are not stopping until its over. It's "real".

also, not every attact froma knife is effective, nor are very many criminal attackers using a knife, adequately (if at all) trained in the application of a blade/and able to disable with the first strike. these are VERY situational aspects, as is EVERY defensive stiation.

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I disagree, but I'm not talking about insta-kills, disables or the like. The effects of knife cuts are cumulative. Its the last strikes that end up being the killing blows. I believe every cut is effective.

Look at the cuts in the pics I attached. This had to be from an untrained attacker. For the most part those are shallow cuts, the BG got upper torso, right rib, and back. There were no attacks to the vascular and connective tissues. Also the BG had back presentation, why didn't he go for any of the "sweet spots". All of them are slashing attacks, I don't see any piercing attacks. The officer is very lucky or very good, no major arteries or veins were opened up. For the most part after the adrenaline fades from his system. I doubt this officer was combat effective.

I have enough training to know that I never ever want to go up against a knife again. (Thats why I carry a handgun)

Steel Tiger: Just wondering, how much of that training is "formal" i.e. with an instructor, a classroom or dojo, and a bunch of other students?

I have very little sparing time owing to the fact no one is willing.

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Most of my sparring cames from when I was participating 4-5 times a week. I've had friends and acquaintances who train in other disciplines who want to go spar, and I loathe to do that. (Because of the differences, its mainly unarmed and I tend to get owned. But I do it anyways because on the next sparring session I smile and throw them a stick.)

I've had other friends who want to spar that have no formal training and I resolutely tell them "NO" Too great a chance to one of us is going to get injured

"I believe every cut is effective"
I agree, I should have worded my responce differently.
but only attacks that land are effective. a cut is a cut, no argument, but not every cut is effective in stopping a fight..

a landed, or missed attack, can provide the opportunity for a fight stopping counter by an experienced knife, followed by a swift withdrawl.
Situational. as in reality, is everything in a defensive situation.
Id agree that the knifeman ie the pics you posted, could either have been inexperienced, or the officer diddnt afford him much opportunity to stab.
as stabs turn to slashes when blocked.


Is also agree sparring with unexperienced partners can lead to injury.. on either party, or both.
sparring imo, is alot about controll.

a stick you say? staff? Choy Lay Fut staff here.

ip.