breaking news, Salt Lake City shooting

Sean Dempsey said:

What about down here in St. George? I don't go north ever (except Cedar City)... at what point does a city become dangerous enough to carry as opposed to not?

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Concealed Carry is a personal thing. There are no written rules or even caveats that would dictate when and when not to carry. Do people live in St. George? If the answer is, "Yes," then it is time to carry, in my opinion.

I lived in Cedar City for a while, and that town is NOT completely crime free. It certainly does not have the same elements as much larger cities, but both Cedar City and St. George are college towns. That should be a big hint right away.

St. George has also become a refugee camp of sorts for the People's Republic of California. People wanting to escape the escalating crime in various parts of California are drawn to St. George because, except for the ocean, St. George has a climate that is near what they are used to. However, in nature the predator will always follow the prey.

St. George also sits on a major East-West traffic artery (I-80/I-15) with Mesquite and Las Vegas not being that far away. Have you noticed the large drug transportation busts that have taken place in the area? I have a news flash: You are in a HOT area and I don't necessarily mean weather wise.

Again, CCW is a personal thing. No one is going to tell you when and when not to carry. The Boy Scout's Motto says it best, "BE PREPARED."

It turns out that I know several of the responding officers, including some of the ones that shot the guy.

This one was bad. Bad guy was executing people at point blank range.

Good guys engaged him, pinned him, other good guys entered behind him and shot him a bunch.

However EVERY SINGLE cop I spoke with about this today said the same thing, they wished that somebody with a CCW had shot the guy first.
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Correia,
Question.
I understand this was a so-called "upscale" mall.
Here in Phoenix, that means liberal yuppyville!!
Also, most, if not all of the malls here are posted. If the same is true in Utah, that means, unfortunately, the CCW holders may have left their guns at home or in the car!!
What's the situation there in SLC??
Is my assessment accurate???

I personally don't go to malls except to make a credit card payment or to visit some specific store that is only located in said mall. I get in, get what I want, and get out!!! My observation is that there is to big of a gang presence in most of the local malls for my taste!!

We also had a shooting at a mall some time back. I can't remember the details, but it was simular to yours. The perp was taken down by an off duty Phoenix Police officer working armed security.

Wondering

Who's mall was this. Management ownership company?

To expand on what this could mean from Rebbecca Peters. I would watch to see if his family is suddenly blessed with a windfall donation. I would think his actions would have voided any insurance policy. Follow the money.

For the shotgun croud this could be a good wake up call. One I would never encourage or advocate. This may be the story to share with them.

I understand this was a so-called "upscale" mall.

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I'm not sure I would classify it as upscale. There's a mix of everything from The Spaghetti Factory restaurant to Williams-Sonoma. Lots of little shops. Trolley Square is a converted trolley barn/shop that has two levels some big shops/restaurants/bars and lots of little shops in a maze of corridors. Not a hangout for mall rats.

Also, most, if not all of the malls here are posted. If the same is true in Utah, that means, unfortunately, the CCW holders may have left their guns at home or in the car!!
What's the situation there in SLC??

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I've never seen a mall posted in the SL area, certainly not Trolley Square. Such signs would be legally meaningless anyway - no force of law.

Who's mall was this. Management ownership company?

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It appears to be local owners/management.

He's Bosnian ... so he could be anything ... including (and most likely) athiest

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40% Muslim; 30% Orthodox; 15% Catholic

Why do you say he is most likely be atheist?

K

txgho1911 said:

Who's mall was this. Management ownership company?

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Tom Bard, Principal
Scanlan Kemper Bard Companies
Owners, Trolley Square

As I understand it, the shops in the mall simply rent space from the owners.

txgho1911 said:

To expand on what this could mean from Rebbecca Peters. I would watch to see if his family is suddenly blessed with a windfall donation. I would think his actions would have voided any insurance policy. Follow the money.

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Zundfolge said:

... I'm still convinced that Rebecca Peters hired the Port Arthur shooter (and the guy that got the blame was just an innocent retarded guy).

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I must have been asleep because this is the first time I have EVER heard anyone try to connect Rebecca Peters to the Port Arthur shooting. WOW! What a delicious idea if the connections could be made...and proven!

How will the investigation be carried out? Will the off duty officer be treated as a private citizen or as a "cop working overtime"? Unless the officer was threatened directly, could he face any civil action? Will his force back him up as if he was on duty???

First of all I would like to send my condolences to the families of the innocent.

Here is what I have heard so far:
Based on his name (Sulejmen Talovic) he was Muslim and probably named after a Muslim crusader.

It was an off duty police officer from Ogden (Ken Hammond) who was having dinner with his wife when he heard shots. He told his wife to stay put and went looking for the shooter. A store owner flagged him down and pointed him in the direction of the shooter. He took cover behind a brick pillar and exchanged fire. Not sure on the gun used by Ken but at one point he yelled to the store owner that he only had six shots. Maybe he was hoping the store owner could offer some fire support

Based on the reports I am not sure if Ken actually hit the shooter but he did join the other officers when they arrived in taking down the shooter.

One thing that was impressive is that it took the police three minutes to respond and another three minutes to stop the threat.
Good job guys!

Autolite said:

Will the off duty officer be treated as a private citizen or as a "cop working overtime"? Unless the officer was threatened directly, could he face any civil action? Will his force back him up as if he was in duty???

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http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_044105216.html

Officer Dining At Trolley Square Revealed As Hero

SALT LAKE CITY An off-duty officer from the Ogden Police Department likely prevented a much larger killing spree at Trolley Square on Monday evening, when he shot and killed an 18-year-old gunman who was armed with a shotgun and .38 caliber pistol. That officer is a six-year veteran of the Ogden Police Department, KUTV.com has learned.

Ogden Mayor Matthew Godfrey identified the officer as Kenneth Hammond, a six-year veteran with the Ogden Police Department, sources told KUTV.com Tuesday afternoon.

Hammond killed 18-year-old Sulejmen Talovic, the gunman at Trolley Square mall Monday night, according to Ogden Police Chief Jon Greiner.

Greiner says the officer was at the mall with his wife celebrating Valentine's Day two days early.

In Greiner's words, "Thank goodness he was there."

At a midday news conference, Burbank described the shooting spree and praised the "heroic efforts" of the off-duty officer from Ogden.

On Monday evening, Talovic, of Salt Lake City opened fire on shoppers in a mall, killing five and wounding four others before police fatally shot him. He was armed with a 12 gauge shotgun, several rounds of ammunition and a .38 caliber handgun, authorities said Tuesday.

SLPD Chief Burbank said Talovic arrived at the mall just before 7 p.m., parking his car in the west terrace. Once police say he got out of his car, he encountered two people immediately and shot them.

He continued into the west entrance of the mall and shot a female inside before entering a gift shop and shot five people inside the store. Talovic then reportedly encountered two more people before the off-duty officer was able to track him down and distract him, according to Burbank.

"There is no question, his quick actions saved the lives of numerous other people," said Burbank. “The suspect in this particular circumstance had one thing in his mind and that was to kill a large number of people."

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I question whether the Ogden officer killed the suspect because all reports indicate a "barrage" at the end. I think that all the information is still being sorted out and it will probably take several days before the information is put in perspective and exact details are known. However, this is not meant to detract from the brave thing that officer did. He is a hero regardless of whether he actually planted the shot of death.

How will the investigation be carried out? Will the off duty officer be treated as a private citizen or as a "cop working overtime"? Unless the officer was threatened directly, could he face any civil action? Will his force back him up as if he was in duty???

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I haven't heard anything about this yet, but Utah is still pretty "red", so I would err on the side of the Ogden officer being heralded as a hero, and not face any charges.

There are unconfirmed reports that the man who ran through the mall and warned mallgoers of the threat had a CCW license that had expired so he wasn't carrying. Apparently he was on a local radio station talking about the shooting.

Pistol in question

The officer from Ogden was carrying a Kimber in 45ACP with 8 rounds in it. I wonder if the store owner heard him wrong, since store owner said officer yelled I only have six shots, further the officer's description of the event differs significantly fron that of the store owner.
I believe the duty weapon in OPD is a Glock??

AUTOLITE - "...Will the off duty officer be treated as a private citizen or as a "cop working overtime"? Unless the officer was threatened directly, could he face any civil action? Will his force back him up as if he was on duty???"

A sworn peace officer is a peace officer 24/7/365.

It does not matter that he was off duty, having dinner with his wife. He was still a sworn peace officer. It would be completely unimportant whether or not he was "threatened" by the shooter. The shooter was breaking the law in a deadly manner and the officer was in 100% compliance with the laws of Utah and his sworn oath.


As for the officer having only eight rounds, those in the magazine of his Kimber, I have many times mentioned tht anyone who carries a handgun for self defense, civilian or peace officer-off-duty, should carry a spare reload. Either an extra magazine or a speedloader.

L.W.

Kentak said:

He's Bosnian ... so he could be anything ... including (and most likely) athiest

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40% Muslim; 30% Orthodox; 15% Catholic

Why do you say he is most likely be atheist?

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I'm guessing prejudice. And no, I'm not trolling. What does this lunatic's religion have to do with anything?

Loucks

What does this lunatic's religion have to do with anything?

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It may have little, or a lot to do with it. Little, if he went psycho and decided to kill a bunch of people. A lot, if he was carrying out some sort of jihadist act against the infidels.

K

this story actually scares me. i dont ccw. i dont currently have a gun appropriate and i cant even have it at college where i live.

i think all of the above are going to change soon.

this story makes me literally sick to my stomac and it is making my head hurt to think that people are going to try to make laws out of this to take away peoples right to stop monsters like this.

think if 1 person in 50 or even 100 in that mall would have had a gun they could have ended this. young lives could have been saved.

it is of amazingly little comfort to know this man will rot in Hell.

Just got back from testifying infront of the Utah legislature to keep from putting anymore restrictions on CCW, so I'm in a foul foul mood. I'll try to answer these questions. For the Utahns here, contact your senator and tell them to tell the U of U to go to hell an die. Seriously. If you don't contact your state rep and tell them not to give into the U, then you don't deserve to carry a gun.

I believe the duty weapon in OPD is a Glock??

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Yes, Glock 22. But they can carry other stuff off duty. The gun in question was more than likely a Kimber .45 per the other Ogden guys I spoke with today.

According to 2nd hand stuff from other SLCPD people, the bad guy managed to catch a whole bunch of rounds at the end from an M4 and an MP5 also. SL SWAT guys are an awesome bunch. We supply their body armor.

This lunatic's religion has everything to do with it, if he was in fact a jihadist terrorist. Even if he was not, once word spreads that he was a Muslim, then the other whackjobs out there will notice what a powerful effect this one logistically simple attack had, they will proclaim him a super hero martyr, and then it is game on.

There are signs in various places posted around Trolley Square saying no guns. Not all over the place, and I don't know if they're from individual businesses, or the management of the whole place. However in Utah these signs are not legally binding on CCW holders. However, as I told the legislature tonight, how many CCW holders didn't carry becase there was a sign? And also, those signs sure didn't manage to do much good.

As for carry in St. George or Ceder City, the closest I've ever come to killing anyone was in Millard County, Utah, in the middle of no where in the desert. Never assume your safe. Ever. I don't care where you are. Name and town and I'll tell you a horror story.

I don't know if the anger is coming through as I type this, but only 10% of us with CCW can be bothered to actually carry. I'm imaging that this will change that.

I read this earlier today and came here to read the buzz about it. One story I read on Yahoo, maybe AP said that all the people in the mall were forced to lay on their stomachs and keep their hands behind their heads till the police cleared the situation (I know this is probably standard procedure) which got me to thinking what if it was a CCH who shot the bad guy and didn't have badge to flash, then the police come running in, the CCH is standing there with a gun pointing at some dead guy on the floor with other dead people around. To me bad deal. I could very well imagine that our hero may well have been shot by the police too. I have a CCL but would only use my gun to defend myself and family for fear of this very situation. It happens enough times that the police missread the situation that makes me think twice before I would step into such a gunfight especially if mine weren't involved.

It may have little, or a lot to do with it. Little, if he went psycho and decided to kill a bunch of people. A lot, if he was carrying out some sort of jihadist act against the infidels.

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If he was operating under orders from some militant Muslim organization, it matters some. If he was sent by the leadership of an organization, we should definitely investigate them, clearly.

If he's a lone nutjob, does it particularly matter what his motivation to go psycho is?

Particularly: in a lot of these parts of the world, especially former Soviet areas, religion is more a group identifier than anything else. "Bosnian Muslim" could mean that he drinks alchohol, doesn't know a word of the Quran, but happens to be descended from people converted by the Ottomans.

If it turns out that he's part of an organized underground movement, I'm certainly open to reconsidering my perspective on this attack. Until then I'll just sit back and watch the knees jerk.

-MV

This lunatic's religion has everything to do with it, if he was in fact a jihadist terrorist. Even if he was not, once word spreads that he was a Muslim, then the other whackjobs out there will notice what a powerful effect this one logistically simple attack had, they will proclaim him a super hero martyr, and then it is game on.

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Correia,

Who gets to do the background on this??
I mean, is SLCPD going to just turn it over to DHS and forget about it??
I mean, if this goof DOES turn out to have belonged to some radical Muslim organization, then we may just well have had the first suicide attack on American soil!! How are we ever going to know?? You know, there are those, including me, that think the Government will sweep this information under the rug in order to keep alive the idea that their "precautions" continue to keep us all safe!!




There have been reports that al-Qaida has sleeper cells all over the US!!! This goof may have been connected!!

This could get big and ugly real fast!!

don't know if the anger is coming through as I type this, but only 10% of us with CCW can be bothered to actually carry. I'm imaging that this will change that.

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When I'm not working, I'm carrying!!

I too would fear that if I stepped up as a law abiding CCW holder and dispatched this guy that it would very likely just put me into the line of police fire because I'd be the one standing there with a gun. I would not holster the weapon until I knew the threat had stopped, and in a situation like that, I'm not even certain I'd see anything but my target. I think you would go tunnel vision in instances like this. I've never encountered stress like this, I can't say what would happen.

I really like the "can't schedule an emergency line." That really strikes home and is why I pack that heavy thing around even though I know the chances of ever needing it are very slim. I have only used the spare tire in my car once in 20 years, but when I needed it, it was truly a lifesaver being I was in the middle of the desert. Same reasoning applies, it's a personal insurance policy which I choose to carry, nothing more.

jeepmor

This lunatic's religion has everything to do with it, if he was in fact a jihadist terrorist. Even if he was not, once word spreads that he was a Muslim, then the other whackjobs out there will notice what a powerful effect this one logistically simple attack had, they will proclaim him a super hero martyr, and then it is game on.

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Keyword being "whackjob". I'm not so concerned that he'll inspire radical Muslims; any mujihad plotting the downfall of America probably has far better ideas than running around a mall with a shotgun and racking up less bodycount than a solid SUV rollover.

Are we imagining hardened Chechen guerillas in Wisconsin smacking their heads and saying "Whoa! We could, like, go shoot people at a mall! Why didn't we think of that years ago?"

I'm more concerned that unstable nutjobs of various stripes might be moved to action by the attention he gets. Not clear whether last year's highschool and Amish molestation/murders were related, but the timing was awfully close.

You know, there are those, including me, that think the Government will sweep this information under the rug in order to keep alive the idea that their "precautions" continue to keep us all safe!!

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I'd argue the _exact_ opposite. It's more likely that it will get played up as a "Utah's loose gunlaws encourage terrorists to buy guns!"

Perhaps our governments is still too honorable to start Reichstag fires, but hey, if the Reichstag catches fire all by itself...

-MV

Muslim Terrorist Attack headlined in Moscow newspaper

As it turns out, the shooter at Trolley Square in Salt Lake was indeed a
Bosnian Muslim per the following Serbianna link:

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http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/01204.shtml

Bosnian Muslim goes on a killing spree in US mall

Police have identified the victims shot at Trolley Square on Monday,
as well as the man believed to be the shooter.

Killed were Jeffrey Walker, 52; Vanessa Quinn, 29; Teresa Ellis, 29;
Brad Frantz, 24; and Kirsten Hinckley, 15.

Hospitalized were Allen Walker, 16, son of Jeffrey Walker;
Carolyn Tuft, 44; Shawn Munns, 34; and Stacy Hansen, 53.

The 18-year-old man who shot and killed at least five people Monday night
has been identified as Sulejmen Talovic, a Bosnian refugee who lived in
Salt Lake City.

Little additional information was released about Talovic.

The Bosnian community, which numbers about 3,000 in Utah,
planned a news conference later this afternoon.

Talovic parked his car in the west parking lot and walked into the mall,
encountering two people, whom he shot.
Then he walked further into the mall and shot a woman,
said Police Chief Chris Burbank.

He then walked to a gift shop and shot five people.
He shot several other people before he was gunned down
by an off-duty Ogden police officer assisted by four Salt Lake City
police officers, Burbank said.

He had a backpack that carried numerous rounds of ammunition as well as a
.38-caliber handgun, said the chief.

Police have no motive in the killing.

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In their quest for motive, I wonder why the Salt Lake Police have
not even considered the possibility of Islamic Jihad?
Both the Salt Lake Tribune and the Deseret News have failed to pick up on this.

I wonder why?

This e-mail was received by a private individual I know:

"We received a phone call from friends in Moscow -- who said the Trolley
Square shooting made the news in Moscow where the story line said
it was a Muslim terrorist attack."

In conclusion, SLC was dang lucky. This person was intent on killing as many people as he could, but was sought out, cornered and killed by a brave person carrying concealed who happened to be a cop.

There was a quote I heard on KSL news yesterday from one intended victim who said the last three words he heard before he was shot was "Die Mother F-cker." Luckily, he survived to tell about it.

i wish there were more folks there with CCW.

in such a pro-RKBA state, i just don't understand why the only person who responded was an off-duty cop (but thank the Lord he was there).

one has to be contrarian about these things.

i understand that UT has a low violent crime rate ... but that's when the average joe is MOST vulnerable ... when he is complacent.

so sad ... i'm hoping this is just a wigged out 18 yr old and not some organized hajji.

in such a pro-RKBA state, i just don't understand why the only person who responded was an off-duty cop (but thank the Lord he was there).

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I think that at least part of the issue is that so much social programming has taken place that a lot of Americans would (do) have a very difficult time responding appropriately and decisively to a threat situation.

I was a cop for several years, then went a number of years without even owning a gun of any sort, then got back into guns and got my CCW permit pretty recently. I was ASTONISHED at how much effort it took me to shift my mindset so that I was comfortable carrying as a civilian. Admittedly it didn't take long for me to (mostly) overcome, but 14 post-cop years of anti-gun socitial programming from multiple sources can really bind you up in a crisis.

A similar mindset issue I've run into is that there are a significant percentage of people who get a CCW/CHL etc. for some damn strange reasons (it's "kewl" or my buddy has one) and never, not once, consider the full ramifications. Sounds stupid but then again I have also known at least a half-dozen guys who joined the military for the "college plan" and the "training" and never ONCE paused to consider "but what if we go to war". Well...DUH!!!!!

Finally, a lot of people who have CCW and who DO carry are firmly in the mindset of "protect me and mine and the sheeple are on their own". Given that the well intentioned individual who goes seeking the threat and successfully stops it still stands a better than even chance of getting crucified for "seeking trouble" I can certainly understand how many would be encouraged to just get themselves and their loved ones out of danger and not worry about others. (Keeping in mind that I find it seriously depressing that things are this way )