Tales of one who DISLIKES 9mm

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Aaryq, don't feel bad. I have found that many people underestimate the value of a 9mm pistol (as I once did). I am also in the military and initially you do tend to hear some bad things about 9mm pistols based on using FMJ ammo (plus, bigger is better, right?). I once too was not a big fan of the 9mm until, like you, I talked it over with my dad. He emphasized the many benefits of the 9mm that have already been mentioned in the thread (cheaper ammo, quicker follow up shots, and the good quality defensive ammo that is now available). I like the 9mm so much that all of my pistols are currently chambered in it (after messing around with a ton of different rifle calibers I enjoy the simplicity of having all of my handguns chambered in one single caliber). In fact I will soon be acquiring a 1911 in 9mm:) .

I live in a city that has a fairly nice city shooting range, even if some of the people are not. It is not uncommon for me to be heckled at the range for shooting a "9" by people that are shooting a .40S&W or .45 (especially by those that are approximately my age, I'm only 22), especially if we are shooting a similar gun. That is, until they see that the groups that I am shooting at 10 or 25 yards when compared to their own. More often than not, my groups of 30 shots from the "9" fit into the area between any two of their shots with a larger caliber (it's quite common to see people have two shots that are 4" apart at 10 yards). And I don't even consider myself a good shot. Plus, I've found that with a 9mm my follow up shots tend to be quicker and in a much smaller grouping than those with larger calibers.

The cheaper cost of 9mm ammo has allowed me something that others at the range, and many of my friends that shoot larger calibers, either because of time or many constrants do not have - more time at the range (I try and go at least once a week, more if the weather allows). I will gladly trust my life to quality 9mm pistols and ammo that allow me to much more often than if I were shooting .40 or .45 and hardly every getting to the shooting range. While .45 my make a bigger hole, that bigger hole does you no good in a self defense situation if you can't hit what you are aiming at. Three (or more!) 9mm holes in the bad guy are much better than the same number of shots that miss from a .45.

This is not meant to be bashing the .40 or .45, if you can afford to shoot it often and you shoot it well, I agree that it should be your first choice (and I am sure there are many here that can do both). However, in my experience, you should not feel undergunned if you have a 9mm that you are able to shoot often and well.
 
My reply to the caliber snobs "Gee if it's that wimpy,how bout letting me put 3 or 4 rounds in your chest and see how you feel afterwards" So far no takers
IIRC the 9x19 has killed a LOT of people in the last 100 years or so.
 
My reply to the caliber snobs "Gee if it's that wimpy,how bout letting me put 3 or 4 rounds in your chest and see how you feel afterwards" So far no takers

Its not about which caliber you would rather get hit with. And to suggest that I should voluntarilly let you shoot me in the chest with a firearm, any firearm, just to prove a point is assinine.

To me, however, it is about which caliber I WOULD rather defend myself(and possibly my family) with. I feel more comfortable with a larger caliber. Ican afford to shoot .45 often. I am convinced that quality .45 defensive ammuniton will create more damage to vital organs than quality 9mm defensive ammuniton will. This is important to me. I can shoot my .45 effectively, and rapidly enough that I feel confident with it. I am not bothered that I have only 8 shots. I carry 2 spare mags, and again, I am confident that I can make my shots count. Therefore, to me, .45acp is a superior defensive cartridge. Does that make me a caliber snob? Dont know, dont care either.
 
ohhh dear....9mm...45acp....which do i choose....well...its like...

heres to our wives & girlfriends...may they never meet
 
I have been noticing that whenever the subject of handgun calibers comes up in casual conversation, at work or with friends, the non-gunnies or less experienced shooters pooh pooh on the 9mm. They love the .45. The conversation doesn't include +p or bullet design, it's irrelevant to them. The 9mm is considered a small caliber and they don't see any advantage to using it. It isn't that they are completely ignorant of firearms it's just that bigger = better. Inevitably someone says "It only takes one .45 and I hit what I aim at".

I am friends with an older shooting enthusiast at work and was discussing a defensive pistol shooting course that I was interested in attending. He asked what pistol I would use and was surprised to hear that I would be using a 9mm, remarking "That's a serious round for self defense, are you sure it's appropriate?". To him the 9mm and .38 were potent calibers, and the .357 and up were extremely powerful.

We began talking about the improvements that had been made to old calibers using new technology and remembered that in this man's shooting days the ammuntion was probably still being loaded to higher levels. He wasn't even sure if 9mm could be made with hollow points, yet he still considered the 124gr FMJ to be a good round.

There is probably a demographic preference for ammunition to be found if anyone wanted to make a poll for it. I don't waste a lot of time thinking about the caliber wars. In my short time as a shooter I have encountered people who genuinely want to make me feel bad about shooting 9mm. Why would they even waste their breath? The discussions, tests, and photos of the 9mm in action look ideal for self defense. Cheap to practice, easy to shoot, higher capacity, wider abundance, and an amazing choice of platforms to shoot it from.
 
9x19 is for pimps and gang bangers
40S&W is for Cops
45ACP is for real American Men

DUH!!!

Really....A P-3AT for the pocket and a 1911 IWB....EZ answer.
BTW....I reload 45 cheaper than I can buy 9mm.
 
As a professional soldier, I carried a .45 all my life -- although I carried a Colt M357 on my first tour in Viet Nam, and that's the only handgun I've ever killed a man with.

My take on the 9mm is, "Why?" The .45 ACP, teamed with the M1911 is as good as it gets. Why compromize?
 
It all depends on the ammo you use.

What about the .22 caliber rounds? Do you hate those too?
 
I like 9mm because its cheap and shoots softly(Although the difference between 9mm and .45 ACP in terms of recoil is minor IMO) and fairly quietly compared to most other handgun calibers. The shear number of handguns that are loaded in 9mm makes it a great choice as well.
 
i used to

I used to hate the .40 cal. I was a 9mm or .45acp guy. I also hated glocks I was a all steel 1911 or all steel 9mm kind of guy. well one day I saw an incredible deal on a glock g 35 it is a glock and a .40cal both the things I hated. I fell in love with that gun and now it is my ssp IDPA gun. Funny how we change our minds.
 
Most of the 9mm/45 stuff comes from people who are simply ignorant (meaning uninformed). They look at a .45 case and (logically) assume since it's twice as large it must be twice as good as a 9mm. They don't understand pressure, velocity, or energy. It's just as simple as .45 > .355. Or they read Colonel Cooper, may he rest in peace and reign forever, and realize that the only guns worthy of goblin combat are ancient single action .45s or bolt action rifles. Now no doubt these are still fine pieces, especially in the hands of someone like him, but so are other weapons.

I've heard all the justifications... spray and pray or whatever. As if the quantity in the magazine has anything to do with accuracy. I suppose an M14 encourages spray and pray and a Garand is the only weapon that real marksmen would use.

Everyone agrees that a .357 with 125 gr JHP's travelling at 1300+ is a great manstopper, yet a 124 grain .355 at 1300 is frowned upon by the ignorant. Why? They look at that long, manly 357 case and frown upon the smaller, more efficient 9mm case. I dare you to take a shot from a .357 and a .355 magnum parabellum in the chest and tell me which one is .002 larger and travelling at 50 fps more.

9mm hp in normal European velocities (+P+ here in the US) is a great round. Not taking anything away from .45 or .40, but 9mm does the job too.

Frenchmen have no use for a weapon no matter what caliber.
 
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For what its worth, i've been doing lots and lots of research recently in regards to different calibers with the focus on seeing what provides the most energy in foot-pounds, and that being said pretty much any modern caliber with the right type of ammo will do the trick (from 9x19 up that is). For some reason or another the border patrol has decided that a pistol must be able to generate 400 footpounds of energy in order to ensure a one shot stop. That being said 9's, .40's and .45's all are capable of doing so loaded right. So yet again just get what your comfortable with, and when your carrying to protect yourself just pick the right kind of ammo.
 
Everyone agrees that a .357 with 125 gr JHP's travelling at 1300+ is a great manstopper, yet a 124 grain .355 at 1300 is frowned upon by the ignorant. Why? They look at that long, manly 357 case and frown upon the smaller, more efficient 9mm case.

That would be a good argument if the other side relied solely on ballistic tables.

The choice of a defensive pistol is more complicated than that, The cartridge is only part of the equation. Things like the platform, its reliability, ergonometrics, the shooter's experiences, and so on all enter into the equation.

The M1911 (from a quality maker) has a lot going for it, and when coupled with the cartridge for which it is designed is hard to beat. In fact, if you accept the validity of certain researchers, there is no statistical difference between the .45 ACP and the 125-grain .357 in terms of "one shot stops."
 
the bigger is better debate is flimsy. A one shot drop usually requires contact with brain tissue (which is not always reliable), spinal cord (same), to the heart or the xyphoid process, or direct contact to support like someones hip or femur (this can range). of course none of these are garunteed. main reason why stomach shots aren't advised, they can pass through without a problem occasionally, and sometimes they won't even notice until afterwards no matter how big the round is,
from 22LR to some rare cases of 50BMG.

bigger or faster can make a HUGE difference when it comes to things like penetration, whether it be bone, kevlar, or metal. Handguns though, are too close together to provide a substantial difference.

there are a few rounds such as 5.7 and 357sig that do well on kevlar. and i have shot some russian armor piercing 9mm before too.
 
I agree. Which is why I say don't make choices on ballistic tables. The choice is complex, and in the end, "I can hit with it, and have both experience and confidence in it" is a very good standard.

If we had good data (which we do not), I would not use the "one shot stop" as a benchmark. I would much rather use stops/encounters as the basic benchmark. That would tell us what the winners use. And from there we could investigate farther to find out why that particular combination was more effective than others.
 
I have seen this debate so many times now, that I start to feel like I might___:barf:
when ever it comes up.
Just look at all the facts, decide which round you like best and carry it....:banghead:​
 
9mm with the right ammo will do the job and do it well. Truth is, nearly every cartridge out there has achieved "1-shot stops" at times and has failed miserably in other cases. It's all about shot placement and penetration.
 
I'm a bit late on posting since I took the thread title literally :banghead:

I have owned 1911's and a few double action semis in .45 acp...a good cartridge with lots of choices in loadings

I have owned a few double action semis in .40 S&W...as they said in the 60's...'not my bag'

I have a soft spot for the medium bore calibers: .38 spl primarily followed by .357 magnum and finally the 9mm parabellum...pure and simple choices; all are readily available; all have good quality loads available; all balance performance vs price
 
Well I'm a .45 guy. After cutting my teeth on 1911's, and absolutely loving the piece and the round, I found it hard to try (or accept) anything else. But times change, and my carry gun (3" 1911) became a little unreliable. And I was tired of the tedious clean/reassemble of the bushingless 1911. Since I like to practice most with what I carry, I stopped carrying it and started looking...

I had a little digression recently by buying a very very good shooting Sig P220 Carry, my first non-1911. I started re-thinking my total zeal for the 1911 as a carry piece.

Don't get me wrong, I love 1911's, always will. But I realized I love 5" 1911's, and nothing else. I'm not a big guy, and sometimes want something less difficult to conceal, say, when spring/summer comes.

So I bought a snubby (S&W 442). Damn, this is light CCW! How enjoyable.

And I started looking for a smallish semiauto, which was not a 1911 and was easy to clean. I wasn't totally sold on staying with 45ACP as I have some trouble with fast followup shots in very small and light pieces chambered for 45ACP. I was attracted to 357 Sig, in particular, as I've never warmed up to 40 cal.

But damn, that ammo is expensive. My bud with a 9mm is always spending $7 on 50 rounds, where I have to really work to find 45ACP for under $12. 357 Sig is even more. Not great on the wallet.

So what the heck, I tried a 9mm Sig P239. Damn if I didn't shoot it well! What a pussycat round... Sharper crack, but less of a push. Easy to shoot, quite accurate. And even in that smallish pistol, very fast followups. I bought the Sig today. It's a really nice pistol, and I'm recanting my years of discounting the 9 as a "weak" round.

Honestly, the ballistic tests of 38 spl +P and 9mm really surprised me. While my 45's will still hold guard over my house, I'm going to start to carry other calibers when a big 45 doesn't feel practical. I've also turned to the dark side.

And damn if I'm pumped for $7 boxes of ammo!
 
I'm a bit late on posting since I took the thread title literally
Yeah, maybe we should come up with some kind of rule against "hate" threads. :uhoh:


Believing there is some huge performance gulf between .45acp and 9mm is almost as ignorant as believing they are equal.

Determine to what extent the loss in capacity, increase in ammo price, size/weight, and loss (or gain) in speed &accuracy of f/u shots matters to YOU in your platform of choice; then balance that against how much YOU value the increase in penetration & expansion that sacrifice buys you (hint: it will be different for everyone).

I'm good w/revolver capacities (not everyone is), so I'm good w/6+1 of .45acp. I'm good w/a 20oz ccw (=to smallest 9mm in my flavor of choice). I practice just as much w/$10 ammo as I did when I was paying half that for 9mm. My follow up shots are quicker and more accurate w/my .45 than were w/9mm. I prefer bigger, heavier bullets of higher sectional density, that expand wider and penetrate deeper, all at a lower pressure- so .45acp is ultimately a no brainer for me*.









*and by "me", I mean not you
 
I used to be in the same boat: Having had a 9mm pass through me with the results being A: I didn't die and B: I didn't notice a whole lot of knockdown power, I developed a dislike of the cartridge. After all, I WAS the ballistics medium! Anyhoo, in an effort to shoot centerfire cheaper, I sucked up and bought one, and I have come to really enjoy shooting the 9mm. In no way will it replace the .45 acp as my primary and preferred "combat" round, but it does provide some very usable defensive options for me, most notably as a truck gun. Additionally, I find that I am pretty handy with the 9, and I like the fact that I can have high cap magazines. Obviously, there are .45's that have high-cap capability, but then a whole other crop of issues comes up, like additional cost. I love .45's, but I am definitly a convert to the church of 9mm....
 
45 vs 9mm is like dating women , why not give them all a try , then you have your favorite , and your backups . Why limit yourself ? sometimes you just want to rock & roll ( 45 ) , other times ya just want to slow dance ( 9mm )




note : I am divorced so YMMV
disclaimer : married men disreguard above posting
 
Having had a 9mm pass through me with the results being A: I didn't die and B: I didn't notice a whole lot of knockdown power.

And that logic tells you that if it had been a 45, you would have been slammed against the wall and DRT? :scrutiny:

Hope this is no too much of a shock, but 45s fail two.:uhoh:

I posted this in another thread when it happened.

We had a shooting here in Phoenix recently where an 18 year old was shot four times with a 45 cal. He took two rounds to the chest and two in the abdomen.

He ran to the neighbor's house and called the police and than ran back to his house and killed the shooter with a kitchen knife and all this fter being shot four times with a 45 :what:

He survived and is ok.

How can that be?

He was shot with a 45. Not once!

Not twice!

Not three times!

He was shot four times with a 45 and he was not knocked off his feet and he wasn't DRT.:uhoh:

Forty five fanatics need to come out of the dark and into the light and realize that a forty five is just a handgun and not some magical wand that will always work when other calibers fail.
 
The larger the bullet the higher chance of striking a vital organ ect. They'll all kill you.
 
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