Punish Them, Punish Them All... Forever!

Monster

While I'd like to see things turn around, both in the U.S. and worldwide, I don't see it happening...Things are gonna get ugly in the coming years.

"Chasing the promise of freedom and hope
Came to this country to build a new vision
Far from the reaches of kingdom and pope
Like good Christians, some would burn the witches
Later some got slaves to gather riches

But still from near and far to seek America
They came by thousands to court the wild
And she just patiently smiled and bore a child
To be their spirit and guiding light

And once the ties with the crown had been broken
Westward in saddle and wagon it went
And 'til the railroad linked ocean to ocean
Many the lives which had come to an end
While we bullied, stole and bought our a homeland
We began the slaughter of the red man

But still from near and far to seek America
They came by thousands to court the wild
And she just patiently smiled and bore a child
To be their spirit and guiding light

The blue and grey they stomped it
They kicked it just like a dog
And when the war over
They stuffed it just like a hog

And though the past has it's share of injustice
Kind was the spirit in many a way
But it's protectors and friends have been sleeping
Now it's a monster and will not obey"

-Steppenwolf, "Monster"

Why are those people commiting crimes ??? Maybe because they can't get a job paying enough to buy all the things society tells us we need to be happy. The whole system is broke....Badly !!! Drug use is getting worse because people can't deal with life as we know it here in the USA. So they take drugs to escape life. There are also a million other reasons for crime. We just have so many people now that it is much worse. We want freedom.........but it can't be at the expense of someone else's freedom. There is no easy answer for the trouble we are in.

I think we need to ask why individuals commit the crimes they do. Then seek a way that will correct the problem without seeking to punish them first. I think a lot of it is just poor parental supervision as kids are growing up. Then kids get thrown into prisons where they learn even worse behavior. Then when they get older they have a hard time getting a job paying a decent wage due to their criminal record. So....back to criminal activity to pay for the stuff society says they need to be happy. We need to make sure our kids are being raised right. Hold the parents responsible for the kids behavior. We also need to provide jobs that pay a decent wage to anyone willing to work. I do not see how anyone can survive on minimum wages.........

As long as we are a society of people bound together we will have to make rules that benefit us all. I know there are people who feel that they earn there money the hard way and to hell with the slackers, criminals and unfortunates in life. However we live in the same world with them. We can ignore them until they rise up and kill us or we can make it so everyone has a stake in our society. Try going it on your own....let society break down.......let gangs rule the night...or worse a tyrant.......... Then you will see it it better to work together.....to help each other.......for the betterment of us all. No man is an island!!! Life is a responsibility...not a free ride.

We just have so many people now that it is much worse. We want freedom.........but it can't be at the expense of someone else's freedom. There is no easy answer for the trouble we are in.

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What you say above is true however there is no easy fix. We now have a fast growing society many undereducated, poor morals very little or no self standards and lack of discipline. When i was born the country had something like 100 million, we now have over 300 million. The idea of doing anything you like is over because guess what it affects someone. The government and the wealthy elite want more people coming in so to increase their wealth but in turn hurting America and freedom of the working class. No easy fix as I said but it will get much worse before any change.
Remember more people=more crime=more laws=less freedom.

Maybe because they can't get a job paying enough to buy all the things society tells us we need to be happy. The whole system is broke....Badly !!! Drug use is getting worse because people can't deal with life as we know it here in the USA. So they take drugs to escape life.

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Disagree. Let's not make excuses for any segment of our society. As others have noted, much of the problem seems to be the socialization of our youth. My generation (the baby boomers) seems to have not been too successful at imparting the most important values and ethics framework to our children, and now they are failing their children in the same fashion.

Opportunity to achieve and be successful in this country abounds.
Quality of life for most is better now than ever before. Of course we have many, many problem areas. No easy answers, as other have stated.

We've become a nation of laws rather than a nation of men.

I may be wrong, I often am. But it seems to me that most of the laws that do not deal with theft, fraud, or violence are passed because something that you or I wants to do offends someone else's moral sensabilities.
An example. Where I live it is illegal to sell alcohol before 1:00 pm on Sunday's within a certain distance of a church. Now I just can't understand how me buying beer at noon on Sunday within 2 miles of a church hurts anyone. But it just can't be done. It offends certain people.
Recently our state representative introduced a bill to outlaw the gambling ships. Why? Because certain people are offended by gambing, so they don't think anyone should be able to do it.




" Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian!"

Close the borders....

Deport all illegals currently in prison.

Just those two things alone would make a huge impact in the amount of drugs getting into this country and of course on crime. I don't understand why it hasn't been done... We spend BILLIONS in aid to Colombia and other countries in the war on drugs. We spend billions collectively around the country in agencies trying to stop / treat / prevent drug use.

We spend billions on healthcare, we spend billions on education... These things could all be controled by closing the border, building a fence, using the military and border patrol to prevent incrusions in and around the fence.

Close the borders....

Deport all illegals currently in prison.

Just those two things alone would make a huge impact in the amount of drugs getting into this country and of course on crime.

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Better yet, legalize the drugs, eliminate any tariffs on the drugs coming from Mexico and you'll see all these illegals moving back home because their economy will rebound and our jails will be a lot less full and our police can focus on important things like murderers, rapists, child molesters and thieves.

Its not the use of drugs that causes crime, its the fact that drugs are delt in a black market that causes crime. Alcohol makes one just as stupid as a lot of illegal drugs, but you don't see two liquor store owners shooting it out over turf ... no they spend money to advertise, they keep their stores cleaner, they lower their prices, they carry a wide selection of microbrews, or whatever else it is they need to do to attract free men and women to come and openly trade with them.

Originally posted by Floridaboy:
Just try suggesting to most folks that we end the "war on drugs". They'll look at you like you're an imbecil. Even though most folks under about 65 or so have at least tried smoking pot. Or suggest that maybe we should legalise prostitution. They'll think you're a moral degenerate at best. How about legalizing gambling? Without the state controlling it through lotteries or casino's. They'll think of the Mafia and numbers runners. We've been conditioned to think of all these things, and plenty others as serious crimes.
Wish I had some answers, but I don't. I am seriously hoping to hear some ideas though.

Maybe we all start voting Libertarian?

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I could not have put it better myself. I went to dinner with a friend and some of her friends and we started talking politics. Basically you hit the nail on the head. When I suggested allowing people to carry guns legally the first thought that came to everyones mind was that gangmembers and other nefarious types would start carrying guns more often.

Its social conditioning. I blame television, the media, and public education.

When I move to Florida after college I will definately be buying you a beer.

Better yet, legalize the drugs...

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Maybe later... But why get bogged down in controversy? The borders could be closed and from there other changes could be made, but closing the border would seriously impact things for the better.

If you want to legalize street drugs you'd have to tie this to completely disqualifying drug use as a means of collecting disability, free medical care or any other benefit from the public treasury.

Personally, I can't see that happening. The trouble is, anytime a group of self-destructive folks find a way to put themselves into dire straits, they suddenly become a constituency for leftist politicians who aqcuire their votes through taxpayer funded programs.

Better if we just leave the drugs illegal but simply quit the drug war, reallocating the resources to immigration enforcement and border security.

Tecumseh, I'll take that beer any time you're ready.

It seems to me that the solution to most crime is something I mentioned earlier. If it's not theft, fraud, violence, rape, and a very few other things, it basically ought to be legal. If reponsible adults choose to drink alcohol, smoke pot, or just about anything else, in the privacy of their own homes, who are we to arrest them and ruin their lives? I know of no one who has ever over-dosed on weed, or robbed a liqour store to buy pot. I;ve never heard of a drive by shooting over over the corner beer concession. It's the LAW that is wrong, not the activity. We, as a people, need to speak up and have it changed. Too many lives have been ruined because you or I don't like someones poison of choice.


" Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian!"

TFW

You are a good cop in a bad system, and I feel for you. But your still a good man. Doing a warrant must me tough especially when they are good people too. We start putting good people in government again, and arresting the bad ones.

I honestly think that legalizing, or at least decriminalizing drugs would be a HUGE step forward for our criminal justice system. Right now it's packed full of non-violent drug offenders. If someone wants to smoke pot in their home why the hell should the government have any say in the matter?

It seems to me that the solution to most crime is something I mentioned earlier. If it's not theft, fraud, violence, rape, and a very few other things, it basically ought to be legal. If reponsible adults choose to drink alcohol, smoke pot, or just about anything else, in the privacy of their own homes, who are we to arrest them and ruin their lives? I know of no one who has ever over-dosed on weed, or robbed a liqour store to buy pot. I;ve never heard of a drive by shooting over over the corner beer concession. It's the LAW that is wrong, not the activity.************************************
You say responsible adults should be able to drink alcohol, smoke pot, or just about anything else in their own homes should not be subject to the laws?
Please give yourself a minute to think about what you just said. 'Who are we to arrest them and ruin their lives?' They are doing a very good job of that themselves! If you think a drunk sobers up after the binge the night before...
If you think a pot head's mind is clear the day following a long night of inhalation of weed, yet unaware of his THC build up in his body...
If you think this kind of conduct comes from a responsible citizen....
Well, all I have to say to you fella is that sounds to me like you are young and have a lot to learn yet about life.
It sounds like you are a person who would benefit from doing without a beer.
It sounds like, if you have young children at home, there is a possibility of the kids getting a strong whiff of something burning inside the home where this responsible citizen is practicing his freedom of choice, while the children look at Dad and wonder why his eyes are glazed over with drool running down a slack jaw...and he is not responding to their calls for attention?
You've never known a person to rob a store for drug money, do a drive by shooting over a beer? Which cave have you been living in, Ya' Punk?
Multiply that situation by say a million more cases and we all of a sudden have a real mess before us. A bunch of selfish slobs who rant about their freedom being affected by laws. They give no thought about what affect they have on others freedoms.
We live in a world where we had better get along with each other and we had better respect others freedoms or else we will not survive.
My suggestion is to try going six months without drinking a single beer. Just see if you can do that. Let us know how you make out.

Better yet, legalize the drugs, eliminate any tariffs on the drugs coming from Mexico and you'll see all these illegals moving back home because their economy will rebound and our jails will be a lot less full and our police can focus on important things like murderers, rapists, child molesters and thieves.

Its not the use of drugs that causes crime, its the fact that drugs are delt in a black market that causes crime. Alcohol makes one just as stupid as a lot of illegal drugs, but you don't see two liquor store owners shooting it out over turf ... no they spend money to advertise, they keep their stores cleaner, they lower their prices, they carry a wide selection of microbrews, or whatever else it is they need to do to attract free men and women to come and openly trade with them.

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Drugs should be legalized, taxed and regulated, just like alcohol and tobacco, the tax money should be used for Job training, Medical treatment of addiction, and education. The black market in drugs is what is driving most of the crimes that plague our society. The breakdown in values and the family unit cused by drug CRIMES and incarrceration of Drug criminals is rampant in certain parts of our society. I see this first hand in my job every day. If you go into certain neighborhoods, the ones where crime is out of control and give an 8 year old $20 and ask him to get you a bottle of whiskey or a bag of crack cocaine. He will come back with a bag of Crack in about two minutes. Its easier to get crack than it is to buy whiskey at a liquour store. This should tell you that the war on some drugs is not working. Once you arrest and convict someone for a drug offense, they become ineligible for public housing, most jobs, job training etc.

Most drug criminals enter the criminal justice system at age 12 as juveniles, when they are either selling drugs or robbing to support a drug habit. They learn the ropes and enter the culture because they learn it from their parents peers and neighbors. Its an alternative economy/ society created by the black market and the War on Drugs. Once they are in there is little chance they will come out ever. If the parents were helped instead of punnished, by giving them medical treatment, job training, and support, then the positive values they learn would be passed to the children and end the cycle.

If you arrest and jail them, they dont get good treatment for their addiciton, they dont get job training, they do learn to be worse criminals in jail, and when they get out, society forces them into a life of crime from that point forward. If the $50,000 per year spent on incarrceration were instead spent on medical treatment, job training, and integration into society, we would have far fewer career criminals.

Drug addiction is a medical problem and needs to be treated as such.

"Which cave have you been living in, Ya' Punk?"

Not really High Road.

I can go without beer, and have. I like beer, I can have one or two and walk away. I have also overindulged a few times. I quit drinking whiskey after Hurricane Andrew, because the recovery time was getting longer. Getting old sucks.
I have seen alcohol cause a lot of problems, but it is legal,and there is treatment and help for those that want it.
I have see many successful people who use drugs, and have for years. The laws simply make no sense. The prisons are full of people who did nothing but possess a substance.
The prohibition of alcohol, created organized crime, the prohibition of drugs has created a black market. Close the black market, and most crime associated with it will end.

I haven't had a beer in over a year, and the last one before that was probably another year removed. I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Let's treat each other with respect so we can call this place The High Road.

I've given this topic some thought, and going back to the original poster, I think the problems you named go right back and connect up with our current gun laws situation.

Look at the situation before about 1965, so around the late 1950s. Back then, it was nothing to keep a loaded shotgun or rifle in the back of your truck. Most kids were more concerned with catching frogs or watching Davey Crockett. Immigration was tightly controlled, and assimlation was encouraged.

Fast forward to the here and the now. Now, there are laws in almost every state where it has to be 'unloaded and in plain site, or locked in an enclosed case'. Kids now are more concerned with emulating their rapper heroes by about age 13, and how to feed their new MJ habits. Something clearly wrong has happened since the 1960s. The 'war on drugs', a never ending, ridiculous nightmare with no end in sight. Things like 'mandatory sentencing' is the right's version of knee-jerk laws (akin to gun control laws) with things like 'megan's law' (real name - vigilante hit list law) and "insert girl's name here law". It is amusing to me, how some of us complain about knee jerk gun laws but then support things like mandatory senetences because one judge goes light on a perp. As I said above, it is the right's version of gun control. Anyone of you watch Faux news? Notice how Bill O'Reilly is in an uproar over any state that doesnt pass a version of the latest knee-jerkism 'Jessica's Law'? His tantrums are about the same as the Brady types when a state wouldnt pass 'assault weapon' bans. Prisons make a person ten times worse, but no one seems to care as that appears to be 'soft on crime'. I might catch flak for this, but I think any one in our prison system has the right to be safe. This includes from rape and assault. Now I am not advocating prisons be turned into resorts, but something is NOT RIGHT on how it is working now.

Let's face it - politicians love these laws as it makes it appear as if they are actually doing something, when in reality the laws are just more BS on paper that are furthering the slow errosion of our rights.

piniongear just reminded me that just because someone is pro gun doesn't mean they are pro liberty.

I do not have children. I don't smoke dope, haven't in a long time. I rarely drink too much. Somehow I think he missed the RESPONSIBLE. Smoking weed, or getting drunk in front of kids is not responsible.

It just seems as if we have made it our single ambition on this planet to criminalize everything.

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"We"? I see having read your post that you are in the habit of thinking for yourself. That's all we as individuals can do. We can't resolve the problem once and for all anymore than Germans could have effected such a changed in the nature of the third reich.

In an ideal world I would have made a good cop. I am honest, I like helping people, and I detest evil but there was no way I would ever subvert my sense of right and wrong to serve the whims of others. That's what you are currently struggling with I think. I fight it alone in my way and so do you in your way. It's the best we can hope for.