2 case scenarios for LE

#1--ask him if you are under arrest. If not, tell him to have a nice day and then tell him to leave.

#2--no. It depends on what his requests are. The question you should always be asking is "Am I free to go?" If not, then ask why. Recording is dependent upon state law. I wish more people would record interactions with the police (if legal to do so where you are). Abusive? How so? Just ask him if you are free to go. You mean like he takes out his baton and beats you into the road. Well, defend yourself best you can, but you are going to jail and will be prosecuted for raising your hands to nobility.

Never consent. If you get out of the car (you have to get out of the car if they are so inclined), lock the door behind you. Don't answer questions about the details of your life, e.g. "where are you going? Where are you coming from?" "Am I free to go?" Be the "Free to Go?" parrot.

If they threaten dogs or search warrant (not necessary for a car, but it's an old cop trick), tell him you object to the detention and you will wait. Call your lawyer's voice mail and tell him/her what is going on while you wait for the doggie or the "warrant". Ask for a supervisor to be present and, don't forget, "am I free to go?"

Is he illegally tresspassing?

No
Is so, can I ask him to kindly leave?

You can ask

Can I refuse to show ID?
Yes


Does the officer have the legal right to ask me questions?

Yes


From a legal standpoint, does the officer have to tell me (specifically) why he is questioning me?

No

If he does NOT have that legal right what can I do to exercise my rights to make him leave.

See Above

If he refuses my request do I have a legal right to take him into custody under citizens arrest and is there limitations on what type of force I can use to subdo him?

No
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another scenario:

I am driving my car.
I have no outstanding warrents and a valid license and have not broken any traffic violations.

cop pulls me over
he asks for license reg and ins proof
I ask him what he is stopping me for.

You can ask, he does NOT have to tell you..

Legally,does he have to tell me?

No

If he doesnt tell me why I was stopped, do I have to continue to answer his requests?

Yes


Do I have the legal right to ask him questions and do I have the right to get answers.

Yes/ No
Do I have the legal right to videotape and/or tape record him?

Video yes...Audio No (depending on State)


If he becomes abusive, physically or verbally what legal rights to I have to end the confrontation?

I dont know what you mean...Sounds like you have issues with the law...

kola said:

A cop pulls up, gets out, approaches me and asks to see my ID.

What are my options?

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Checkers, Chess, Global Thermonuclear War, et al.

kola said:

Is he illegally tresspassing?

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Probably not. But it would depend upon the state.

kola said:

Is so, can I ask him to kindly leave?

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You can always ask.

kola said:

Can I refuse to show ID?

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Oh course, but some courts have held the cop can then arrest you until able to determine your identity.

kola said:

Does the officer have the legal right to ask me questions?

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Well, anyone can ask anyone else any question they want. You do have a right to refuse, whether it's a cop or someone else asking.

kola said:

From a legal standpoint, does the officer have to tell me (specifically) why he is questioning me?

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Police have considerable discretion investigating a crime. They can lie during the course of an investigation. Anything you say might be used against you, and anything they say may or may not be the truth.

kola said:

If he does NOT have that legal right what can I do to exercise my rights to make him leave.

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Well, you could call 9-1-1.

kola said:

If he refuses my request do I have a legal right to take him into custody under citizens arrest and is there limitations on what type of force I can use to subdo him?

Click to expand...

Yes, Global Thermonuclear War is not allowed. That's only permissible in response to a request for ID.

Delta, I think he's worried about getting a beat down as some of these cases are getting a lot of press lately (e.g., Chicago), and as happened to me back in '93 in Chicago.

Good call on the trespassing question forgot about that one. Usually one is not trespassing unless one has notice that he is not wanted there.

When the officer approaches you=not trespassing.
If the officer stays after you tell him to leave=trespassing.

What's with these anti-LEO threads? First the Taser thread and now this, completely set up so the cops are always wrong. On the other thread you insulted people who posted to it and when you broke rules and your posts were edited you insulted THR and the mods.

I don't know how long you'll be a member here (I'd guess not long) but I'd quit with the anti-LEO posts. As an answer to your questions, who cares.

When the officer approaches you=not trespassing.
If the officer stays after you tell him to leave=trespassing

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El Tejon....In Florida, an L.E.O. is just about exempt from trespassing laws, but not wearing a seatbelt !!!!

To the folks that want to help educate me,

Do you really think an officer will leave after I ask him and then tell him he is trespassing?

NO- HE DOESNT HAVE TO JUST BECAUSE YOU TOLD HIM SO, GET OVER IT..



If he doesn't leave what are my options?

Hold your breath, beat on your chest, call your mommy, call your lawyer, sue him, although he has qualified immunity, but his countersuit should be fun..


ok thats it for me....Sorry you didnt get what you came for ...

No one has called in a complaint about me.
I have never broken the law in 32 years.
I pay my taxes and work 9 to 5 as a pizzeria manager

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If all of this is true what are you worried about?

a innocent person refuses to show ID and is t ased and arrested

a innocent person refuses to tell an officer where he is going and is arrested.

a person is on the sidewalk in a peaceful protest an is ta s ed and arrested.

a person is stopped who is participating in a anti war rally and is questioned on his religous beliefs and sexual preference. he is arrested.

a innocent driver is stopped and asked for ID, when the driver asks why he is stopped he gets no answer. he is then told to get out of car.. the driver asks why and is pulled out of the car thrown on the ground and handcuffed. he was later released and nevr told why he was pulled over or subjected to this type of treatment

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There is probably more to these stories than you're telling. These all sound like stories from the 50s and 60s when these things did happen to civil rights workers. Everyone who is arrested claims they were doing nothing wrong. Police are not that bad. If they are talk to the FBI and charge them with violation of civil rights.

NUTS

kola, you are nuts for even considering a citizen's arrest and any other type of hostile move against a law enforcement officer. there is: obstruction of justice, resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer... want me to continue?

the answer you seek is: You CANNOT shoot or handcuff a police officer because you don't think he's following the rules.

Regardless of your views on events in the media or of politics or the law, the police have the power and authority over you. get over it. if you disagree, go ahead and have a stand off. (doubt you'll get the 70 virgins)

2 case scenarios for LE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

any lawyers or LE, please feel free to answer my questions. Thanks.

scenario:

No one has called in a complaint about me.
I have never broken the law in 32 years.
I pay my taxes and work 9 to 5 as a pizzeria manager.

I am sitting on my front lawn.
I am reading the paper.
A cop pulls up, gets out, approaches me and asks to see my ID.

What are my options?

Is he illegally tresspassing?

Click to expand...

Depends on all the circumstances, but in general no.

Is so, can I ask him to kindly leave?

Click to expand...

You can always ask, but he may have a real legal basis for being there and contacting you that you are not aware of at the time, and he might legally be allowed to stay.

Can I refuse to show ID?

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Again, this may depend on a wide variety of circumstances, including but not limited to the specific jurisidiction.

Does the officer have the legal right to ask me questions?

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Anyone can ask you anything, and you for the most part you can choose which questions you want to answer or not. Rarely, you may be legally required to answer certain questions.

From a legal standpoint, does the officer have to tell me (specifically) why he is questioning me?

Click to expand...

Generally no.

If he does NOT have that legal right what can I do to exercise my rights to make him leave.

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Ask for his supervisor.[/QUOTE]If he refuses my request do I have a legal right to take him into custody under citizens arrest and is there limitations on what type of force I can use to subdo him?[/QUOTE]Trying this can be VERY dangerous. You may be unaware of the legal basis for the contact, and you could be committing a felony, and are definitely escalating the situation to a point where rather than asking questions the officer is now responding to a threat of physical violence.

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another scenario:

I am driving my car.
I have no outstanding warrents and a valid license and have not broken any traffic violations.

Click to expand...

You may not think you have, but you are not an expert on traffic laws in your state are you?

cop pulls me over
he asks for license reg and ins proof
I ask him what he is stopping me for.

Legally,does he have to tell me?

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Generally no, unless he issues a citation, and the violation will be listed on the citation. Again, this will vary with the circumstances, and to include but not limited to the particular jurisdiction.

If he doesnt tell me why I was stopped, do I have to continue to answer his requests?

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Same as above, in general you don't have to answer most questions, but in most areas you must provide proof of a valid operator's license, valid vehicle registration, and current insurance.

Do I have the legal right to ask him questions and do I have the right to get answers.

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You can always ask, but you may not have the right to be answered, the same way you generally don't have to answer most questions asked to you.

Do I have the legal right to videotape and/or tape record him?

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This varies widely from state to state, and in many states recordings can only be made if both parties consent.

If he becomes abusive, physically or verbally what legal rights to I have to end the confrontation?

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Depends on what is really going on, but if you are refusing to comply with an officer who is legally authorized to obtain certain information, or perhaps even take you into custody, you have no legal right fight the officer. It is VERY likely you are in the wrong, and unnecessarily escelating the situation into something violent.

The answers to most of these questions are "it depends". What does it depend upon? It depends on exactly why the cop is stopping/talking to you.

For instance, your second scenario states that you have violated no traffic laws. Taking that as a given (almost everyone I pull over preofesses to have violated no traffic laws, and I suspect that many of them are not just trying to talk their way out of a citation- they honestly have no idea what they just did), the reason for the officer stopping you may be for investigation of a crime that you did not commit. The classic scenario is the armed robbery in which the bad guy just took off in a car that is the same make/model/color as yours, and headed off down the street upon which you are currently driving. Are you getting stopped? Oh yes you are. Failure to do so would be dereliction of duty.

Now, once you get stopped, you have a couple of options:

1. Cooperate with the cop. Give him your name and ID, comply with reasonable requests.

2. Do the absolute minimum required by statutory and case law. Say nothing and do nothing else. generally be uncooperative, but don't violate the law.

Gentle reader, which course of action is more likely to get our friend Mr. Kola on his way quickly, with minimum fuss and muss?

Now, in no way am I suggesting that one should grovel and be subservient, or that one should always comply with each and every request (as differentiated from an order) made by a LEO. For example, I decided a while ago that if I am ever pulled over for what appears to be a routine stop, I will never consent to a search of the vehicle. I just don't feel the need. However, if the stop has all of the hallmarks of an investigatory stop for something serious, and I think that I can get on my way faster and get him off after the real bad guy faster by, for instance, letting him look in the trunk, I'm probably going to do it. But I recognize that this is my choice and my right.

Be advised, that in a country that follows the rule of law, we do not argue the finer points of case law on the side of the road. If the cop orders me to do something, I'm doing it. I'll decide later whether or not I'm happy about doing it. Why? Because they either have Probable Cause to search or arrest, or they do not. If they have it and I fight it, I lose. If they don't have it and I fight it, I still lose (even if I win later, I'll still go to jail, and to me that's a loss). However, if they don't have it and I comply, I have a recourse in the legal system...civil rights lawsuits are no joke.

Mike

Take note, I'm a LEO and this response is based on Michigan law (please also take note that I don't claim to be either a State or Federal judge, and therefore am not an expert on miniscule points of case-law):

I am sitting on my front lawn.
I am reading the paper.
A cop pulls up, gets out, approaches me and asks to see my ID.

What are my options?

Is he illegally tresspassing?
Is so, can I ask him to kindly leave?
Can I refuse to show ID?
Does the officer have the legal right to ask me questions?
From a legal standpoint, does the officer have to tell me (specifically) why he is questioning me?
If he does NOT have that legal right what can I do to exercise my rights to make him leave.

Click to expand...

He's not tresspassing. Nor is anybody else that walks onto your property to talk to you. You can ask him to leave, and he may or may not be legally required to do so.

Consider that a crime may just have occurred in the area, and maybe you fit the description of the person who did it, as given my the victim. Maybe you're about the same height/weight, same facial hair, same clothes. In this case, the officer knows a crime occurred and has a reasonable suspicion that you may have been involved, based on the description given. He want to talk to you and identify you. The officer is investigating a crime, and you are legally prohibited from obstructing that investigation. Since he has reasonable suspicion that you may be involved, he has the legal authority to detain you and ID you. In this case, that would consist of talking to you on your porch (hardly a real detention) and seeing your ID. And then we're done. Hardly anything to worry about (unless you did it).

He doesn't have to tell you why he's questioning you, just like you don't have to tell him why you're sitting on your porch.

If he is investigating a crime, and has at least a reasonable suspicion that you are a person if interest, he has the legal authority to identify you, and you have a legal obligation to cooperate. If he is just randomly walking up an talking to you, then you don't have to cooperate. If you want him to leave, he probably will (and I think he's probably required to leave, unless he's investigating a crime)

If he refuses my request do I have a legal right to take him into custody under citizens arrest

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No effin' way.

...and is there limitations on what type of force I can use to subdo him?

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Yes. NO force may be lawfully used against a LEO for any reason in Michigan, including force used to resist a LEO's unlawful actions. Legislators have decided that nobody wins if somebody tries to fight. If the LEO was out of line, that's taken care of later in criminal and / or civil court, NOT on the street.


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another scenario:

I am driving my car.
I have no outstanding warrents and a valid license and have not broken any traffic violations.

cop pulls me over
he asks for license reg and ins proof
I ask him what he is stopping me for.

Legally,does he have to tell me?
If he doesnt tell me why I was stopped, do I have to continue to answer his requests?
Do I have the legal right to ask him questions and do I have the right to get answers.
Do I have the legal right to videotape and/or tape record him?
If he becomes abusive, physically or verbally what legal rights to I have to end the confrontation?

Click to expand...

We don't have to tell you anything. I just about always do when I stop somebody, though. There's no reason to keep it secret, and no reason to be an ass to people just for the sake of it.

You can ask all the questions you want, but he doesn't have to answer them. He can ask you all the questions he wants, too, and you don't have to answer them. You are legally required to provide your license, registration, and proof of insurance. That is all you are legally required to do as a driver on a stop made for a traffic infraction.

Overtly tape all you want. I don't have anything to hide. I'm not sure about secretly recording, though. I think it's legal to secretly record personal conversations that aren't over the phone, though. In Michigan, phone-tapping is illegal, even for the police.

I think it's quite rare for a LEO to spontaneously become abusive, either verbally or physically (this is the cue for a myriad of posts about how somebody was "harrassed" by some fascist cop). Even if you don't like what is going on, you have no right to end the contact. The LEO has a legal responsibity, however, to get you back on your way in a reasonable amount of time. "Reasonable" is judged by the courts on a case-by-case basis.

Your recourse comes after the stop, when you file complaints with the officer's agency, or file a law-suit if you think it's that bad, or make accusations of criminal misconduct, if you think it's really that bad.

I hope that helps...

If the cop orders me to do something, I'm doing it. I'll decide later whether or not I'm happy about doing it. Why?

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Good for you, if their request seems reasonable, then I will as well. If not, then I will refuse, I will ask to see the supervisor, I will call my Lawyer, and I will make sure my civil rights are protected.

For example, if I was driving a vehicle matching the description of a getaway car then I would gladly open the trunk to show no money is in there. I will not allow the LEO to go through my entire car and search every nook and cranny, just because.

If I am at home and a LEO comes into my yard saying my appearance matches a suspect I will gladly show my ID. But I will not just allow him to enter and search my residence.

You LEOs talk about us being reasonable, well that shoe is supposed to fit both feet.

You LEOs talk about us being reasonable, well that shoe is supposed to fit both feet.

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Be assured, it does. There are countless points of case-law and book-law that establish boundaries LEOs are required to stay within.

Good for you, if their request seems reasonable, then I will as well. If not, then I will refuse, I will ask to see the supervisor, I will call my Lawyer, and I will make sure my civil rights are protected.

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I think that's a situation in which nobody wins. If they were out of line, and you refuse and make enough of a fuss to get arrested, you lose. If they are out of line and you go along with it and take your legal recourse in the courts, you win. The law shows us that judges are the ones who decide of a LEOs actions are reasonable, and that occurs in a courtroom. It's not the citizen's or LEOs perception of reasonableness that counts and it's definately not something that will end well on the side of the road. Seeing supervisors, calling lawyers, and protecting civil rights occur after the stop.

I will not allow the LEO to go through my entire car and search every nook and cranny, just because.

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Then don't. A consent search is exactly that. It's consented to. If they ask to search, say "I don't want you to", and they won't unless they have the legal authority to. If they don't have the legal grounds to, and do anyway, you win later in court.

But I will not just allow him to enter and search my residence.

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Same as above.

Been steadily wandering around the U.S. since I got out of the Army in 1958. I've often been driving with more than enough enthusiasm to attract "unwanted attention". Hard to blame a cop for stopping me for 130 in a 55, right? But we had a good 15-minute bull session about Chevy small blocks.

For no particular reason I've happened to personally know a bunch of cops and be around cops. Sorta "just happened". I've heard lots of insider black-humor cop stuff. Trivially little ho-ho-ho nonsense about what they got away with. I'd have to say they're more fair to bad guys than my instincts would have me react, really.

In all these years I've gotten maybe two tickets that I really thought were not justified. Big deal. I've gotten a bunch of warning tickets where I easily could have gotten a "real" ticket. And I've been let off, once the cop figured out I wasn't deliberately being "holey".

I've never had any maltreatment or discourtesy. Some abruptness, yeah, but no big deal.

So, I figure that common sense, courtesy and politeness will keep on keeping me out of serious problems. A smile, a nod and a "Howdy!" will carry you a long darned way--and avoid hassles.

I hate hassles.

Art

Be assured, it does. There are countless points of case-law and book-law that establish boundaries LEOs are required to stay within.

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And we see on here every day where officers excede that. In fact it seems to be encouraged by many departments.

Your scenerio was that they want to establish ID, or whether I have had some involvement in the commision of a felony. I will ID myself, and comply with that to make his or her job easier. If I need to explain where I was while said felony occurred I will do that. As I said above I will cooperate as long as it is a reasonable request. After that unless the LEO in question has a ____ good reason then it should be done and over with. Once it goes past that then I will not just comply.

About 10 years ago I got pulled over in the 85 Silvarado I rebuilt. I was driving past one of the local nursing homes on my way to lunch. Got pulled over by a City Officer. It is a 30 MPH zone, and I think I was under but I might not have been. Officer comes to the window, with a HUGE attitude. I hand him by info, and he commences to giving me the 3rd degree. Now the truck looks like 100 other trucks in town, so I wasn't surprised when he said that it matches the description of a vehicle used in the commision of a crime earlier and asks if he can search. Well I say I do not consent, and that I have been at work since 5AM. I give him the phone number and tell him he can call and check on my whereabouts. The look on his face was priceless! He stuttered and stammered and finally just handed me back my DL, and told me to go on. I honestly don't believe that there was any vehicle that he was looking for. He just wanted to search me, for what ever reason. If there had been a vehicle he would have called my work and checked. When I got back the receptionist who rec. all the calls had not been contacted nor had HR. I told them what happened neither ever mentioned hearing from the good officer.

I plan on cooperating with ANY reasonable request, but when it passes that point it becomes an issue of principle, and I have been known to dig in my feet and fight pretty hard for those.

I imagine this discussion would get interesting if we threw Conservation Officer into it:

CO: "Good afternoon, sir."

John Q: "Hello, officer. What can I do for you?"

CO: "I was passing though today --what wonderful weather we're having.
Be a great day to go hunting. Do you hunt?"

JQ: "Yes, sometimes. It's been a while, though."

CO: "We had a report of a runaway/rabid/wounded deer/rabbit/fish near this
address --I need to check your fridge, freezer, and garbage."

John Q: "I've been sitting here reading the paper and nothing like that has
come by."

CO: "Sir, I need you to put down the paper and stand up...."

TBL, no different. "Officer, do you have a warrant?" If so, like the Grateful Dead say, come on in. If not, "you need to leave now, have a great day."

TCB, ahhh, but some people here get to argue over "reasonable" all day at work.

It always seems to me in these threads that people are more upset with the attitude of the officer rather than his actions. Come to think of it, I see a lot of that misguided priority at the work as well. "And the cop gave me a dirty look and was smart with me." "O.K., but let's focus on the 15 pounds of pot that was stuffed in your left pant leg. How do we explain that to a jury?"

As to cop attitudes, remember that cops are human beings, not robots. They work a trying and sometimes miserable jobs. The people they interact with are perhaps less than optimal dinner company, everyone is a critic and being in the car that long would drive me nuts.

Don't sweat a cop with an "attitude". His partner, his boss, his wife, his last call, *yawn* he's just human like you.

Remember, be cool, Eddie Haskell up around the po-po. No reason to be rude but no reason to be a push over.

Just like self-defense play the "what if" game and you're way ahead. I think kola just wants to be prepared. Nothing wrong with that.

TCB, there are well over a million cops all around the U.S. Now, I've never assumed that more than 99% of any group is any sort of walking perfection, okay? I don't care if you're talking priests or prune-pickers.

To me, the really important thing about cop misdeeds in the news is how few there actually are.

One percent of a million is ten thousand. 10,000. Now, if those "bad cops" were as bad as some here would have us believe, I think we'd have a whole bunch more news items to squabble over than what I've seen, these last several years of TFL & THR.

Art

It has been my experience that COs take a wider latitude on interpretation
than other officers.

Obviously, I would agree that everyone's human. After Katrina in NOLA we
saw just how human LEOs can be along with everyone else. I've always
wondered if anyone did a study after K/NOLA to see which professionals
stayed at their posts and did their jobs in greater numbers: LEOs, fire, EMTs,
doctors, nurses, etc. Online AARs, anyone?

I would agree that there's many stereotypes out there.