Why the prejudice?

I like blackpowder, whether cap and ball or cartridge. I have a pair of Mosins and I kind of like the fact that the 7.62x54r was originally blackpowder and still has the case capacity to be so-loaded today. I also have a Philadelphia derringer replica that's a cap and ball.

Blackpowder will get the job done but I think the two biggest practical objections are reliability and reload speed. Blackpowder is at a disadvantage here, but not always as much as some would assume.

Ignorance, I reckon. They're not used so much anymore... they've been replaced by better weapons... better in taking higher pressures in a smaller case, quicker reloads, that is.
Black powder is messier (from what I've read) than smokeless - cleaning is more difficult.
Cleanup is the main problem I see with BP guns... they did plenty of execution in the last century, and I don't think modern man has evolved a gene that makes him immune to BP weapons.

I'm not quite sure when folks decided that older bullets were incapable of stopping an attack. Don't know when 7mm Magnum or .30-06 became the minimum caliber for deer. I reckon that Davy Crockett and a lot of other frontiersmen did fine with loads that must've been much lower in power balistically.

BTW, is BP cheaper than other powder?

There are plenty of graves due to blackpowder guns. A large chunk of slow moving lead has done in many a person. Unless you are invaded by a platoon, 6 shots should do the trick. Hell, keep two handy and have 12 shots.

Just think, without that way of thinking, how would gun companies make money? We'd still be shooting Henry rifles, instead of ARs. lol. If everyone had Hickock's mentality, every gun since the Remmie '58 (arguably the finest cap 'n' ball of the day) would have opened to a flat market.

Mainly, though the only real disadvantage is the round count to size ratio. A Colt SAA is a pretty good size gun, even with the short barrel, for only holding five rounds, when you compare it to a j-frame.

~~~Mat

Its not so much a prejudice as a couple of little issues one is size of most PB weapons and another is the really relavent factor here in the Pacific NW called RAIN . Blackpowder is really sensitive to humidity/moisture . A coworker of mine who loves hunting with his blackpowder rifle will occasionally skip opprotunities to do so because of the rain here .

Who is giving you the crap over it?

by any chance is it someone trying to SELL you a new gun?

If you shoot well with cowboy loads, then use them. Most black powder rounds of the type you mention start at .36 caliber and move up fast, so it is not like you are shooting small rounds by any means.

if you have good shot placement, black powder rounds will do the job just fine.

I think a lot more people worry about the appearance of murphy's law in actualy operation, and the often lack of safety features aside from the judgement of the shooter.

Because about 100 or so years ago, the people who had used black powder all their lives, figured out that smokeless power in, cartridges, in more modern firearms designs were WAY LOTS better than cap and ball revolvers.

I'll trust their judgement. They used handguns for a lot more serious uses than I ever hope to.

Will a black powder gun still do the job? Sure.

Can I still cross the country in a Conestoga Wagon? Sure.

I've always joked about carrying black powder loads for your ninjafied self defense firearm because they'll throw lead and throw up your ninja escape smokescreen...

If a black powder or single action pistol was all that was available to defend my self they could be put into service. If I’m choosing a gun in preparation for potential use as a self defense weapon a single action cartridge revolver would be my 3rd choice behind a semi auto or modern double action revolver with a percussion pistol being only better than a club or knife. Percussion pistols are not as reliable as a cartridge gun and SA pistols are slow to reload and fire.

Often you read and hear about home invasions that involve multiple assailants. If I’m faced with 2 or more adversaries I’l like to be able to fire as many rounds as I can both quickly and reliably.

First of all there is nothing weak about black powder loads.

Second BP firearms run the gamut from muzzle loading flintlocks, to cap and ball weapons like the early Colts and Remingtons, to cartridge weapons which have a modern case and bullet loaded with BP (which was what was common before the advent of smokeless), to modern BP rifles from Thompson Center. So you are speaking of a lot of different and varied weapons. From the colonial era musket, to the Spencer repeating rifle, to the Ruger Old Army of today, the early buffalo rifles, etc. Black Hills currently loads black powder loads for cowboy action shooting. You can still roll your own useing blackpowder instead of smokeless.

So why would anyone shoot black powder? Cause you want to try it and you can. Heck up until the .44 Magnum came along the most powerful handgun one could carry was the Walker Colt.

tipoc

There are reliability issues with *percussion cap* ignition in front-stuffer revolvers. The caps can fall off, you can get flash-over chain fires (ignition in one cylinder sets off neighboring chambers!) and reload speed is...well, bad.

Black powder cartridges are OK, except you're also "popping smoke" . Which can actually be a good thing - you can use it as cover in some cases (yes, really) and change positions undetected after your first shot or two. The sound is completely unlike any modern gun, and in some ways "sounds nastier" - it's a low-pitched thunderous kaboooom rather than the normal "krak!" sound. Anything that confuses the bad guy is a good thing.

But. I would also argue that in urban areas, carrying any wheelgun that lacks a transfer bar or hammer block safety isn't a good idea unless you've got a LOT of practice with the five-up carry system. It's too easy to make a mistake. God knows I like old-style guns, and often CCW a Ruger New Vaquero, but while that's physically a pretty close copy of a Colt SAA of 1873, mechanically it's much tougher, more reliable due to coil springs and safe for six-up carry due to the transfer bar.

---

All that said, anybody with a percussion .36cal or above wheelgun is better armed than somebody with a 32acp mousegun.

"it's a low-pitched thunderous kaboooom rather than the normal "krak!" "
I've got to start reloading now. I'll do it with black powder. Just for that effect. Nice cloud of smoke, and a nice sound. What more could a fella want?

Darn you people. Always getting some poor sucker to buy something else gun-related.

I'm not experienced with BP but from what I've read:

With cap n ball the weak link is the percussion caps right?

If they fail to go off or fall off and jam the action up you are totally SOL.

With BP in general you have fouling issues. Which can bind a gun up.

Though I totally get the romanticism of carrying a CnB gun I'm not going to put my life in the balance for it.

If I did it would be the LeMat, 9 shots of .44 and one shot of IIRC 20 ga. Plus at that weight it makes a nifty club.

I'll probably never carry any sort of revolver as a primary. 14 to 18 rounds of modern 9mm or .45 gives me more chances to stop my attacker than 5 to 8 rounds of .38/.357 to .44mag/.45 Colt.

Geronimo: black powder burns slower than smokeless, hence the sound difference.

One problem though: the resulting "soot grit size" (dunno the proper term) is larger for black powder. When the New Vaqueros came out, some in the CAS/SASS circles complained that they were jamming with the "holy black". The NV is a quality gun with generally tight specs...most are running barrel/cylinder gaps down around .004" and some (like my 357) are tighter. With smokeless that's great, with black, less than optimum. Some of those guys now take a fine arkansas stone to the backs of their barrels and open the gaps a bit if that's their thing.

Me, as cool as BP might be, I'd rather run a tight gap, less night flash, more velocity.

I'm unaware of anyone who carries a cap and ball revolver for self defense. Nor anyone who carries a flintlock, other than Captain Jack Sparrow of course. They are mostly for fun and the sport of it. As in CAS and frontier type shoots.

One exception to the above is I do know a couple of men who have carried their Ruger Old Armys with them while hunting.

There are a good many who hunt with a variety of bp rifles though. These have been gaining in popularity over the last decade or so. Again mostly for the sport and skill involved.

Most modern wheelguns are not built to the specs necessary for regular usage of BP in high volumn. A revolver with smokeless in it can easily go several hundred rounds before powder fouling interferes with it's function. This is long after BP would foul it and cause binding. However a couple dozen rounds of BP, if properly loaded, should not cause a modern gun to bind.

There are some who carry bp in their cartrides for self defense, presuming a low number of rounds will be fired. BP when fired within close range, a few feet let's say, will continue to burn on a fellas clothes or skin unlike smokeless.

tipoc

I am still wondering where the OP experienced the prejudice.

Seems to me that we discuss BP and C&B quite a bit on these forums.

However, is the OP suggesting that a C&B, or even an SAA with BP loads, is a preferable self-defense choice over a modern semi-auto or revolver using modern smokeless defense ammunition? I do believe that he will have an argument on his hands, but his opponents won't be working on the level of "prejudice" but rather history and experience.

There is a section of this forum devoted to BP. The question might be best asked there.

tipoc

Personally, I'd never use handloads for defence. I don't want some low life lawer going on about how I concocted 'killer' loads.

Why do you think that a black powder handgun, ...are imbeciles trying to get themselves killed for using an "inferior weapon"?

Most are told to at least go out and get a little pocket auto in the 22,32,38, and 380 auto calibers.

Click to expand...

The people you are including into that "most" are clearly double-imbeciles. First, because of choosing a BP for self-defence and second, because of going to other imbeciles for advice.

I am not sure what the size and weight of the smallest practicable BP handun are - but I would bet that in the same or smaller size and weight one can get a reasonably-priced modern gun in a way more powerfull chambering - .40, .357 (Mag or Sig), .45 or 10mm, even .44.

miko

Unless you like Hi-points, you aren't going to find a reasonably priced gun in a similar caliber for the same price. I paid under 200 bucks for my Remington 1858 replica this past January. I have put over a hundred balls through it, only one cap failed to fire because I did not seat it properly. I have never had a cap fall off while shooting it. This isn't even a problem if you use properly fitting caps. Most of the problems associated with shooting a cap and ball revolver can be fixed if you have experience with it, which you should have with any gun you use for defense. I can safely carry six rounds in my Remington replica, and I don't think I would need more in a self defense situation. I'm no expert on this, but that is my take. That said, I am currently looking to get a good autoloader to use to get my CHL.

DixieTexian,
If you already have a BP gun and want to carry it - sure.

But if one feels the need to have a gun for self-defence, if one perceives a chance that he will face a deadly threat - one should select the deadliest type of gun he can handle and conceal, pick the model he has utmost confidence in and buy it.

Anything less would be irresponcible to oneself and loved ones.

Since you are already comfortable with a revolver, why don't you consider a snub revolver in .357 rather than an autoloader?
The first choice in guns should be that which you could carry in a widest variety of places. Snub can always be with you. Once you have that, you can add weapons for less restrictive carry situations.

miko

The reason I want an autoloader is because, in Texas, if you qualify for your CHL with a revolver, you can only carry a revolver. If you qualify with an autoloader, you can carry either. Also, I have shot snubby's and autoloaders. I like Autoloaders better. They feel more comfortable in my hands, etc. My black powder gun has a 8 inch barrel, so it has a bit different balance than a snubby.
EDIT: Also, in TExas a black powder revolder is not considered a firearm as long as it is a replica of a gun manufactered before 1899 that does not use rimfire or centerfire ammunition. That means I can carry my remmie 1858 with me wherever I want, however I want.

When I shoot SASS, I use BP loads in either a 1875 Remington or 1858 Remington conversion. During re-enactments, I've used BP Remingtons or Colt Navy's. However, I also recognize that in both cases, I am in no danger of life and limb at the hands of an attacker or multiple attackers. It's a sport or a game but not one of life and death. When I carry to defend myself or my family, I want the equipment that is going to give me the most advantages and a C&B revolver or a SA revolver isn't it. Fired caps fall off into actions (had that happen once with a C&B Navy, BP fouls mechanisms making them harder (or impossible) to operate, single actions are slow to reload, a cocked light hammer combined with the stress of a gun-fight is an accident waiting to happen, an uncocked SA revovler requires additional manipulation before it can be fired for each shot, and a host of other problems are associated with these old designs which is why no modern army or police force uses them anymore.
Look, if you want to play Wild Bill Hickock, more power to you but consider this, in the 1870's on through the end of the century, Wild Bill, Wyat Earp, Jesse James and the rest mainly used what was the most modern, effective and available designs of the day. Today, time and technology has marched on which is why you see folks serious about self defense, be it military personnel, LEOs and most CCW holders, using the best of what today's technology has to offer as well.