Virginia Gun Laws(or lack of)

Secondary sales never require a background check, as far as I know - they don't in Illinois, home of some of the most ridiculous gun laws in the country.

Waiting period wouldn't have made a bit of difference either. He bought the guns well outside of any waiting period that's ever been. Three days, five days, a week? If there had been one, would you have then realized that it did nothing?

Should we restrict sales of gas and fertelizer so people can't make bombs? Put a waiting period on lighters to prevent arson? License people to go in a pool as they might drown another?

Utterly silly. I don't think gun laws are irresponsible, but I do think it's irresponsible for someone that carries to have invested so little thought into the right they exercise.

Bad things happen in free societies. We are in a time of unparalleled naivete in terms of people expecting that someone else is taking care of them. So long as we are free, we must provide for our own care. Things will only get worse until then.

I still have to call troll on this, everyone watch what you say. I'm sure plenty of people fish here for comments to take out of context.

We like our laws down here just fine.
After a lot of work we have state pre-emption of the county-by-county patchwork we had previously.
Some of the liberal counties are not thrilled with the shall issue rules, but they grudgingly are forced to obey.

As for limits, if you have a permit you can purchase as many handguns as you can afford.

Thanks Pax!

Let me try help here:

As a permit holder, I have absolutely no problem with the process that I went through to acquire it.

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Well if you take the wording of the 2nd Amendment literally and stand behind all 10 in the Bill of Rights, ie: are proud to be an American, where at least you know you're free, then you shouldn't have a process to get a carry (bear), let alone a permit to buy. "...shall not be infringed."
I don't know about the laws in your state, but here in Pennsylvania our state constitution reads "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." This wording is propably a little more clear and direct in terms of today's spoken english. However I believe it accurately depicts the intent of the founding fathers, especially when you consider that this nation's capitol used to be in Philadelphia, PA.

Apparently, its a touchy subject. One that some are more sensitive about than others. Did not mean to hit a nerve.

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Oh it's touchy alright. Here's why: In order of importance the founding fathers thought it 2'nd only to freedom of speech. Trust me it'd be worse if you talked about permits to speak openly--infringing on our 1'rst Amendment but it would certainly wake the rest of the country up to their rights under the 2'nd Amendment, as it was in large part intented to ensure the rest of the Bill of Rights remained and that we never fell to a dictatorship, internal or otherwise, without one hell of a fight--remember some folks wanted to make Washington king and that mentallity was understood by our founding fathers as evil. Washington himself turned down the offer.

The concept here is simple. Generally we believe in all 10 in the Bill of Rights. We believe that those who exchange a little freedom for a sense of security deserve neither. Sound radical? It shouldn't. It's a 300 year old paraphrase from one our nation's founding fathers.

Anyone who wants a gun can get one, even if it's not legal--there is a black market for criminals and criminally insane folks. Study after study shows us gun control laws increase crime and actually decrease the security of law abiding people, which should come as no surprise as it goes in accordance with what our founding fathers tried to tell us 300 years ago.

Secondary sales of a handgun (but NOT a long gun,for some reason) in CT require a background check by state police (they give you a confirmation number), paperwork on the private seller's part, and you can ONLY sell to someone who has a CT FFL, which requires a personal interview in the first place with your local police chief, personal references, an FBI background check, fingerprints, and a photograph.

That's the way it should be with deadly weapons. (flame away).

This guy had been involuntarily committed to a mental institution in the months/years leading up to his massacre (just reported this evening in the media). That's a definte red flag in CT and likely grounds for a denial of permit and/or purchase.

There are a lot of good arguments being made in this thread and other threads about the coming hysteria over gun crimes, and how more federal gun laws won't so anything to stop criminals, etc. I agree.

But I also submit that FFL applications and gun sale laws should be EXACTLY THE SAME across the country, and that in exchange for that we get a national FFL carry permit that is good for all 50 states, D.C. and Puerto Rico.

The fact is that VA gets better ratings from the Brady bunch than many other states, such as my home state of Ohio. Not that I think an 'A' from Brady is a good thing! I'd prefer VA had an 'F' from Brady than a C-.

Waiting period would have been useless here. The jerkoff bought the Glock more than a month eariler. Are you proposing a 6 month waiting period?!

One gun a month also useless in this case. He bought 2 guns over a couple months I believe.

I guess you could look at improving the background check system. But then you are getting into issues of lengthy checks that make people wait days or weeks. And issues of medical privacy if you want to have mental health issues searched in a background check.

I am of the opinion that VA and other states should loosen restrictions on concealed carry. Allow the few people who bother to get permits (less than 1% in VA) the chance to shoot back.

That's the way it should be with deadly weapons. (flame away).

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Okay...so only special people can sell one of their guns? Hold that to "...shall not be infringed" and see how it compares. Here in PA you go to the FFL, he does the transfer paperwork just as he did when you transfered to you, but it's just a phone call to be sure the person getting the gun is not a registered felon or fugitive.

This guy had been involuntarily committed to a mental institution in the months/years leading up to his massacre (just reported this evening in the media).

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That right there is grounds not to buy the weapon here in PA. I'm starting to think the gun was obtained illegally in VT massacre, because if you check yes to that question or it gets flagged in the phone call I'm pretty sure you don't get the gun.

No Chemist, anyone can sell one of their guns. It's who they sell them to that's the problem.

"Shall not be infringed" is no more holy than the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" or "peaceful assembly " -- except you can't rape that pretty girl if it makes you happy, and people often need permits to hold rallies. Firearms ownership comes with a lot of resposnibility -- NOT JUST THE RIGHT -- and part of that responsibility is to ensure that sane, law-abiding people are the ones who own firearms. Or would you have 7-year-olds buying and driving sports cars?? After all, it is their "right," guaranteed in the Constitution.

The gun was obtained legally. If there is a question about mental stability on the VA form, the murderer could have just lied. Happens all the time, I'm sure. My point is that I'm sure some states applications and subsequent background checks (upon each new purchase) vary widely. And they shouldn't.

I believe the best defense for reponsible gun owners when situaitons like this arise is to express the obvious: did someone game the system, if so how, and how can we prevent it from happening again?

Reasonable???

Greenscape,
I'm a college student, father, grandfather and concealed firearm license holder. Unfortunately that license isn't valid in Canada where I live. You would likely consider our laws reasonable, unless of course you think your life and that of your loved ones is important.

The fact is that they are unreasonably restrictive given that they do no more to prevent school shootings - by disarming the bad guys - than Virginia's or any others do.

The right to keep and bear arms was recognized by the framers of your constitution as being so important - they even gave one reason - that the government was forbidden to infringe upon that right. Your laws are full of infringements, and each one exists only because someone was willing to stick it to someone else in the name of ---.:banghead:

'nuff said.

committed?

could anyone substantiate the allegation he was involuntrily committed? i believe it not to be true. i know its just a fact but i'm persnickety about facts and reality

greenscape -

You might want to follow your own advice about being respectful. Name calling and personal attacks like calling me "ignorant" don't reflect well on the author [that would be you] - especially a brand new forum member.

I gave specifics about the problems attendant when you approach crime by focusing on the citizens who obey the laws rather than those who break them. I used examples from my own state.

Asking for specifics to back up your assertion is reasonable. If you really want an educated dialogue you'll probably want to keep it civil as well.

The concept here is simple. Generally we believe in all 10 in the Bill of Rights. We believe that those who exchange a little freedom for a sense of security deserve neither. Sound radical? It shouldn't. It's a 300 year old paraphrase from one our nation's founding fathers.

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The right to keep and bear arms was recognized by the framers of your constitution as being so important - they even gave one reason - that the government was forbidden to infringe upon that right. Your laws are full of infringements, and each one exists only because someone was willing to stick it to someone else in the name of ---.

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fantastic arguments that put in perspective many modern events and their impact on our way of life. I spend quite a bit of time writing letters, attending hearings in both Annapolis and Washington, and doing my part to stop reactionary people, mostly using junk science and emotional pleas to erode on the freedoms that this country was founded on, my family has fought and died for over 6 generations to protect, and that are taken for granted by millions.

The logic that a law against carrying a gun without a permit, purchasing a gun that was either illegally imported, or illegally sold will deter a criminal of any type when the penalties for murder and robbery don't is the basis of the whole gun control issue. I firmly believe that laws that strip the rights, or add fees and unecesary hassle to law abiding citizens who want to buy a gun for any reason, hunting, CC, HD, or just for plinking are unconstitutional, and deny millions the ability to effectively defend themselves.

With todays technology there is absolutely no reason for waiting periods of any length, buisnesses routinely rely on near instant credit transactions to be sufficient to hand over billions worth of merchandise each year, a simple and basic background check at gun shops should be more than sufficent. Private sales and out of state sales should also be as simple as possible. It has been proven time and time again that gun control has no positive impact on crime, but in instances where states have partially restored peoples rights to self defense and to carry do have a positive impact.

could anyone substantiate the allegation he was involuntrily committed?

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There was no commitment of any type. In 2005 he was temporarily detained overnight until he was given a psych test the next day. The judge ruled that he was dangerous to himself and others, but released him and ordered that he receive outpatient counseling. It's not clear if he ever received the counseling.

As noted above, statements on that page of the Brady site are very misleading. I would not doubt they are intentionally misleading.

Also, in their ratings, "Carrying Concealed Weapons Law F No police discretion, no training required, reciprocity" is inaccurate. My Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP) required taking a class including a shooting proficiency test. So, again, Brady is inaccurate and at best spreading misinformation.

IIRC Virginia was the first state to set up instant background checks, in response to the legal requirements to check background. They hit multiple databases in the background check. Why should they take more time, as you suggest, when computers can do it instantly? Shouldn't we all be using technology to make things more efficient?

I don't think he was trying to support the Bradys. Maybe we should look at that site more often. Make us angrier and realize what we're up against.

Funny thing about the brady's grading system is that the "worse" the score=the lower per capita instances of gun crime.

As I saw an onslaught of responses that seemed to mis-interpret my post, I used a bad choice of words.

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Would you care to try and re-state your thoughts for further clarification and dialogue?

I am simply trying to understand the current issues and process the events.

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So are we all.

Unfortunatly I live in Kalifornistan, so our gun laws are just a wee bit crappier than Va from what I understand. Here in Cali, you go to the shop, pick your gun, fill out the paperwork, pay your $, then come back in 10 business days & take a handgun test & give proof of a safe or trigger guard, then get vyou gun. How does it work in VA? I saw mention of the checks being done over the phone, how long are the shops on hold for? Is there a "waiting/cooling off period"?

Last question, if the shop got the "background" done & it came back clear, if this guy was a mental case (obvious in hindsight), shouldn't the agency (eg state police, atf, feds etc) that does the check be held liable & not the shop if someone other than the triggerman is to blame?

greenscape sez:

I was simply citing what I had read and tried to open an educated dialogue.

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If you wanted an educated dialog, you could have started by citing State law instead of the Brady interpretation of VA laws.

Partisan Ranger sez:

One gun a month also useless in this case.

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Once again, in VA you can buy only one handgun per month if you do not hold a CCW. CCW holder can buy as many handguns as they please and anyone can buy as many rifles as they please.

And another thing, VA is an open carry state, no permit required. Ya just gotta love that!

[email protected] asks:

How does it work in VA? I saw mention of the checks being done over the phone, how long are the shops on hold for?

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Fill out the paperwork, provide two forms of ID (one must have a picture) and you'll have your firearm in 10-15 minutes.

Ed, do you all accept transplants from Kalifornistan if they are progun? If so I'll talk to the wife about moving lol. Thanks for the info.

Good info at the VA State Police site.

www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm

John

Ed, do you all accept transplants from Kalifornistan if they are progun?

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Sure, I moved here from Redondo Beach. There are lots of job opportunities in NOVA -- I believe the unemployment rate is below 2%.

Do you honestly believe he could have killed 32 people with a baseball bat without someone stopping him?

Arguments like these only help the antis demonstrate that pro-gun types are not rooted in reality.

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Well, with advice like this, you have to wonder. From page 13 of Virginia Tech’s “Crisis Resolution Management” policy manual:

"What to Do When Violence Occurs

* Do not physically touch an outraged person, or try to force them to leave.

*Calmly ask the person to place any weapons in a neutral location while you continue to talk to them.

* Never attempt to disarm or accept a weapon from the person in question. Weapon retrieval should only be done by a police officer."

http://www.hr.vt.edu/downloads/CMRmanual.pdf