Rush show comment-- why didn't they rush him...

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Rush to judgment

I am a concealed carry permit person. I shoot IDPA. And, you're right, I think Rush Limbaugh is depressing and I don't like his histerical simplistic political rants, I used to listen to him on AM radio, and just couldn't take it...he bitched about nearly everyone and everything...Rush always had the answer, and the answer was whatever Rush was saying...everyone else was an idiot, Rush was just never wrong and never in doubt.. I take a little broader view.

I had this backwards (the caller asked why the gunman wasn't rushed), and apologize for my knee-jerk reaction (something Rush will never be guilty of). Although he is the evil of many lessers, I am reminded of the saying "Even Mussolini had the trains running on time" --I will give him his due.

I certainly support gun ownership, and have always puzzled how to keep guns away from homicidal mental cases--wish we could figure that out...
 
College communities tend to also be popular retirement communities. I'm sure most colleges could put together an armed volunteer security force of retired LEO's and military personnel to increase campus safety. Won't prevent a shooting from happening, but might bring it to a quicker end.
Sorry, but that's just one more red herring response.

The answer is to allow students with permits to carry on campus. Compare this event with the recent mall shooting in (was it?) Seattle. Shooter came in loaded for bear. ONE man, with ONE pistol and ONE magazine of ammo stopped the shooter and pinned him down until the cavalry could arrive. That's all that's needed ... just allow the people who legally own the guns and want to carry them, to carry them.

Occam's Razor ... if an answer appears obvious, it just might be the answer.
 
I certainly support gun ownership, and have always puzzled how to keep guns away from homicidal mental cases--wish we could figure that out...
As a nation, we don't try especially hard to keep automobiles away from horrendous drivers, and on the whole they kill a helluva lot more people that the occasional mass murderer.

Thar ain't no Constitutionally guaranteed right to drive an automobile.
 
Whether it's hardwired into us or not, the culture of fear is actively being pushed, and has been for some time now. Everyone is taught to be sheep to the point they have no idea what else to be.

As for an undercover cop, I'd look for a young and intelligent one who'd like to pursue an education, if only part time, and offer him or her a break on tuition.
I wouldn't suggest trolling donut shops, though...
 
How many of you are 18-22? How many of you remember being 18-22? I'm over 40, and as I remember myself at 18-22, I would have been a total chicken-mess if this had happened in one of my college classes. I would like to think that now I would react appropriately.

As for the "undercover" officers in college classes - why not offer free tuition to LEOs. That way, they're getting credit, actually taking the class, and no one knows they're there, not even the professors. That AND allowing CCWs (both LEOs and permit holders) on campuses. Some campuses don't even allow off duty LEOs to carry.:what:
 
Panic paralyzes. Unless you're trained to the contrary, your mind simply shuts down.

I've been held up at gunpoint twice. Granted, I was much younger, but I was paralyzed with fear. It's not pleasant.

That's why people in that state will often pee in their pants. I didn't, but only because I was too scared to.
 
Sorry, but that's just one more red herring response.

The answer is to allow students with permits to carry on campus.

I don't disagree with you, but that's simply never going to happen. Politically unrealistic. Even if the guy had killed 500 or a 1000 people, VA Tech and other VA colleges and universities are never going to permit concealed carry on campus. At least not by students and very unlikely by faculty/staff. A volunteer force of retired LEO's is about the only choice that college admins might find acceptable and which they can also afford.
 
However, I just heard a suggestion on the local radio that was NOT stupid. A caller suggested that colleges (take it upon themselves) to have undercover cop(s) attending classes much in the same way that Sky Marshal fly airplanes...you never know which flight has the armed Sky Marshal on it.

I've got a better idea: we could deputize normal citizens and give them the power to respond to threats during their day to day lives - we could expand this past the classroom setting to life in general. I just don't know what we should call it...
 
Well, it certainly is in our nature to second guess anything and everything. Please read the quote I posted above and then tell me what you would have done in the same situation.

Daniel, I honestly don't know what I would have done. I wasn't there, and your posts about desks being in the way makes a lot of sense.This situation was certainly nothing like the sheep sitting on the train and getting popped, then waiting for the gunman to reload and repeat.

I've just seen so many examples of the "sit quietly and die" syndrome that it has always had me wondering. You'd think that over the millenia, the human species would have evolved as part of our survival mechanism, the instinct to attack en masse against a threat, at least when we can't flee. In some cases it's not possible, of course. But in a lot of cases it is, but it just doesn't happen.
 
VA Tech and other VA colleges and universities are never going to permit concealed carry on campus. At least not by students and very unlikely by faculty/staff.

Okay, that is crap, and we need to get over that mental speed bump anti trap really quick.

WE HAVE CONCEALED CARRY IN SCHOOLS IN UTAH RIGHT NOW.

We have concealed carry in elementary schools. We have concealed carry in high school. We have concealed carry in college.

And we had to fight like crazy to get it.

But the genie is out of the bottle. This is not so far fetched. We can do it, so so can you. ESPECIALLY RIGHT NOW.

Call your state reps and demand to know why Utah loves their children more than your state loves theirs.
 
The folks on Flight 93 who joined in "Let's Roll" were adults
and they did have time to think through their situation and
the consequences before agreeing to act.

The victims at VT were struck with a flurry -- some reports
say three minutes -- of gun shots: there was little time to react.
The police arrived and breached the door (chained and padlocked
from the inside by the killer). The killer then committed suicide.

There was little time for the students to overcome the shock and
surprise and sort out what was going on. That actually takes some
training in stress-induced situations to get people to act and
react rather than freeze up like deer in the headlights.

Unfortunately academic indoctrination tends to instill a mentality
of "wait for authority" to act; and a "gun free zone" is
obviously against self-defense or people acted to protect
themselves or others.

Even so, there were a few who took initiative, mostly of a
defensive nature: blocking a door to a classroom with tables
and holding it closed even though the killer fired through the door.
And that professor who held the door to his class closed so
the students could leap out the window (he was killed).

We all would like to think that even if we were unarmed, we
could have improvised with whatever was a hand--most classrooms
have chairs and most halls have fire extinguishers. To truly
know we would have to have been where we would not want
to have been, at VT on that fatal day.

But if that is all the preparedness that a community of 25,000
had against a random nutcase, what were their plans to handle
a planned terrorist attack in this day and age?
 
Call your state reps and demand to know why Utah loves their children more than your state loves theirs.

Correia, I don't disagree with you either. But in VA the university presidents have more political clout than the elected state reps. If the university presidents say no guns on campus then that's the way it's going to be and there's nothing the members of the VA General Assembly can do to change that. I work for a major state university and my office is located 2 blocks from the VA state capitol. I know VA politics very well. VA is a pro-gun state but university presidents rule their campuses with an iron fist.
 
It seems like this thread is focused upon what should have been done rather than what was done. We cal all agree that id CCW wasn't banned on the school campus the outcome would have been very different. Some may have dies but not all that did.

We should focus on the young man who was shot in the arm but still have the mental strength to barricade the door to make sure the shooter couldn't get back in once he left. It’s a good think he did that because the shooter did try to re-enter the room to finish the killing. We should focus upon the teacher who lost his life holding the door which allowed all but 2 of his students to escape before he fell. We should focus upon the young lady who after leaving her class was told by a janitor to get out of the building fast because there was a shooter on the floor but chose to go back upstairs and warn her classmates to stay in the upstairs class away from the shooter.

Yes, maybe something could have been done to stop him sitting home SAFE the day after the shooting but it's hard to ask an unarmed person to stand up and charge someone who has a gun pointed at them. I doubt I would have done that and I doubt most others here would have either.

Lets leave the blame where it belongs, with the murderer.
 
Joe Demko said:
"Read The Naked Ape. It is wired into primates to be submissive when subject to displays of aggression."

Well, I must be wired funny, especially for a female, because it absolutely infuriates me when someone comes bossing in, trying to dominate me and others. I get really mad and I say things and take steps. But then, I paddle whitewater, too, which I'm probably supposed to be wired to fear...
 
How wonderful for you personally. What is true about you as an individual isn't necessarily indicative about what is true of the species. Most aren't wired to be mass murderers either, yet there are mass murderers.
 
How wonderful for you personally. What is true about you as an individual isn't necessarily indicative about what is true of the species.

Well, even more wonderful news for all of us, personally. We are not insects or primates, we are human beings, and we can train ourselves not to be slaves to whatever "species norms" that anyone might try to attribute to us.

Personally, I know a lot of people like TamTenko, so I am not buying any Naked Ape scenario, especially since I am not an ape, but rather a human being.
 
Thanks for the support, Bowfin (PS--it's Tam Thompson, not Temko.)

JOE--there's no need to be sarcastic. And yes, it is quite wonderful to have capability. You did mention the species that I am a part of, so I thought I'd mention it. You should consider training and adding some capability--I highly recommend it.
 
Don't read sarcasm where there is none. You provided a self-evaluation. I am basing my opinion, not just on a single text, but on a pretty fair amount of time spent studying the recorded history of our species. What is true of you does not provide me useful data to evaluate humans as a group. See my earlier statement about mass murderers.

Thank you for the advice concerning training. Always good advice. It'd be even more so if I had had none.
 
This is a "You won't believe this." discussion with a guy in the gym this morning.
He is in his 30s or maybe early 40s.

I made a statement that I suspected that some of the parents who had children who were killed would have liked to have had a person with a concealed handgun in the classroom. Further I mentioned how the criminals do not obey rules and law abiding folks do. That leaves the honest folks without the means to defend themselves.

He replied that it was true, but he still came down on the side of more gun control. His rationale was that we should get rid of guns except by LEO and military. He concedes that what he proposes would cost more lives, but he said that if enough people got killed society would in time ban guns. It might take a generation, but sooner or later society would ban guns.

I was astounded that anyone would continue to see people killed in order to get a ban if it took many years.
I wonder if his wife or child got killed if it would still be justified. I do not know of his family status.

There is no reasoning with some rabid antis such as that man.

Jerry
 
It is very difficult to know exactly what any of us would do unless we are in this situation but fighting back usually is the best thing to do and I think that if these students all threw their books, pens, pencils, desks etc. at him and then charged him it would have been much more difficult for him to hit them and easier for them to charge him.
 
It always amazes me the "sacks" people grow when they analyze an event after it has happened.

There was a young college jounalist asking a question the day of the shooting who said something to the effect of "is their any indication why everyone didn't overpower the attacker? I mean, if it was me I would rather have run at him and died defending myself." He just struck me as sounding like the type of boastful clown that would have wet himself then break into tears the minute he heard the first gun shot.
 
Second-Guessing

Rush is, I cannot imagine him overwhelming anyone...come to think of it, he is doing what he is perfectly suited for, second-guessing people who had to make terrible decisions. It is ignoble to do that, it is actually despicable.

I don't think it's despicable. In my job as an LEO and LEO-trainer, I do it all the time. Every shooting report that comes across my desk, every incident gets picked apart by the training staff. What did this cop do right, what did he do wrong, what could have have done differently? Then, we pitch the scenarios to the troops for them to pick apart. We debate them. We create training exercises around those scenarios. Every officer-survival exercise in my training portfolio is based on something some cop did for real. These are topics of conversation amongst the LEOs I train. The smart ones NEVER stop playing what-if games.

There is no reason non-LEOs should not do the same and I for one am given HOPE that somebody on a national radio show had the guts to discuss it. Americans live (and die) in a state of perpetual denial. The cold, simple truth of the matter is THERE IS NO ONE TO PROTECT YOU. We LEOs are mainly on clean-up detail. Americans need to realize that violent predators are among us. Accept that IT may well one day happen to YOU. Start considering ALL of your options, armed and unarmed. This needs to be a topic of conversation among those who consider themselves "self-reliant."

Too many people here carry weapons yet never pause to consider or discuss the ugly reality of the world. Some here will pick apart endless hypothetical situations about zombies but never look at the stark reality on the evening news.

Johnny
 
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Well, even more wonderful news for all of us, personally. We are not insects or primates, we are human beings, and we can train ourselves not to be slaves to whatever "species norms" that anyone might try to attribute to us.

Personally, I know a lot of people like TamTenko, so I am not buying any Naked Ape scenario, especially since I am not an ape, but rather a human being.
We are both humans and primates. As much as you might bristle at the notion, you are hardwired to be submissive in the face of superior might. It takes a lot of training to get past that.
 
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