License plate recognition system

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You wouldn't be able to pinpoint jack squat from that database other than the fact that a system equipped cruiser and the subject vehicle were in the same place at the same time.

Incorrect, since a photo is taken, and stored, every time a license plate is read.

PIPS system page.

Screenshot of example. Look! It's parked! Want to bet he's not just driving by?

Data analysis software helpfully provided. From that page:
you can locate and map hits based on a wide range of criteria including partial plates, street address, GPS coordinates, time and date.

"Wide range of criteria including..." So ... there're other search parameters beyond "partial plates", "street address", "GPS co-ords", and Ye Olde "time and date".

That's one system from one company.

Lord Acton said: "Power corrupts."

You obviously don't think so. Fine. I've got 14 years in LE departments and dealing with City and County governments that tells me differently.

Your mind is made up on this subject, and you obviously believe that your various levels and parts of Government are incorruptible; Have Only The Best Interests Of All At Heart; and would never, ever ever keep pushing the envelope on the liberties of the people.

*sigh*

Well, run with what makes you happy.

My part in this debate is done.

LawDog
 
when i was in 7th or 8th grade there was a big push for parents to get their infants fingerprints and footprints put on record for id purposes. i remember being uncomfortable with the idea, and discussing it with my mom. she used the argument "if your not doing anything wrong, then why is it a problem?" i remember asking her if she would like a tv camera in her living room. when she seemed taken aback by the idea i repeated "if your not doing anything wrong, then why is it a problem?".
 
I also read a article that the feds can now listen to what you say while even when your phone is off. They found a way to bypass the phone and your consent to activate the microphone. The way to get around this is to just take the battery out.
Not if I keep it under my tinfoil hat they can't.
 
CFriesen, I am not your friend, though I suspect your use of the term is probably bordering on smartaleck.

I have no problem with restrictions on LEOs. There is a big difference between restricting you guys (I'm assuming you are one) and restricting civilians from owning ARs. LEOs are agents of the state, and thus one should keep a thumb on them. I read somewhere that the government needs to be kept in check. Men smarter than I thought that. Now where did I read such craziness? ;)

"Oh yeah... and we filled the prisons with them didn't we?"

This is a classic strawman. If a new AWB were to be passed without grandfathering in current owners, a whole new subset of felons would exist. Do you seriously think that your LEO buddies would not arrest someone for violation of the new law if he was found to be in possession of an EBR? This is what I said. Nothing more. I did not refernce the past, thus your strawman has crumbled.

To me, LEOs have their obvious uses. I will call them if needed, but I will not trust them blindly. I have a healthy distrust of government and its agents.

You also said this: "But let me tell you something; so long as you live a predominantly peaceful and law-abiding existence, no one really gives a hoot about controlling you or anyone else."

This is very naive and almost utopian. You don't pay much attention to statments made by various legislators about what should be banned and criminalized. With the stroke of a pen, a man can go from law-abiding citizen to outlaw faster than my old crotch-rocket could hit 100mph. Are you telling me that the leftists in our government (those bordering on socialist as evidenced by their love for laws controlling behavior, programs redistributing wealth, etc), don't want to control the masses? Ha! People like Pelosi and Schumer are all about controlling the populace. That damned old 2nd amendment is in their way right now, but they're making progress chipping away at it.

My problem with license plate recognition systems, red-light cameras (a fight in our town right now), and surveillance like Boss Daley seems to like are that they give government too much power.

This has everything to do with the gun rights, even though bogie doesn't see it. One can make the connection if one puts forth a little effort. Intrusive government and erosion of gun rights are like peas and carrots.

Sometimes I think I'd rather take my chances with the criminals.
 
Incorrect, since a photo is taken, and stored, every time a license plate is read.

Yeah Lawdog, I understand that. And yes, you could in fact hypothetically reference exactly where and when that photo was taken regardless of whether the vehicles were stationary or moving.

You aren't getting the picture here brother.

Those shots are going to be taken in tens of thousand of random locations... not repeatedly in one parking lot.

The fact that your car has been photographed 25,000 times over the last five years within five miles of your home means absolutely nothing to anyone given the fact that those locations will cross reference randomly to virtually any and every address in that area.

It has no value to an investigator under any but the most involved circumstances (read a team investigating an attempt on the president perhaps... and even then it is questionable given the fact the sequence of contacts is wholly random).

It means nothing to your 2A rights.

It is incredibly effective and efficient at doing what it is designed to do: assisting law enforcement in locating specifically pre-identified vehicles.

Lord Acton said: "Power corrupts."

You obviously don't think so. Fine. I've got 14 years in LE departments and dealing with City and County governments that tells me differently.

I'm aware that power corrupts Lawdog. I'm also aware that fear of power neuters.

Success in enterprise or battle is contingent upon the ability of the organization to install leadership and infrastructure which can be held to the task of conflict. That leadership is not always safe Lawdog. It should not be. If it is, it probably isn't up to the job. That leadership, by definition, must be voracious, and zealous, and prepared to realize the interest of its master by whatever means it is afforded. Sometimes that animal becomes feral Lawdog. Sometimes it needs to be removed for the good of its own. That is the nature of power, governance, and leadership.

The Control of government is not always easy Lawdog... if it was, you and I would probably not be particularly pleased to live in this country. Give it some thought.

By the way... Lord Acton made some other interesting observations. Among them:

"Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity."

"If some great catastrophe is not announced every morning, we feel a certain void. Nothing in the paper today, we sigh."

"There are two things which cannot be attacked in front: ignorance and narrow-mindedness. They can only be shaken by the simple development of the contrary qualities. They will not bear discussion."

Your mind is made up on this subject,

My mind is ANYTHING BUT made up... I simply haven't heard a well-presented argument.

and you obviously believe that your various levels and parts of Government are incorruptible; Have Only The Best Interests Of All At Heart; and would never, ever ever keep pushing the envelope on the liberties of the people.

Oh I know what government is capable of. I have no illusion in this regard. As I stated earlier, it is in no way hypothetical to me. I've truly felt the sole of my government's boot on my fingers Lawdog. Have you?

My biggest problem Lawdog is the absolutist and essentialist nature of your argument. I either accept your position as valid or I am neccesarily of the mind that the government is "incorruptible". All or nothing.



*sigh*

Well, run with what makes you happy.

My part in this debate is done.

LawDog

Thanks for having dropped by.
 
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CFriesen, I am not your friend, though I suspect your use of the term is probably bordering on smartaleck.

As you wish.


"Oh yeah... and we filled the prisons with them didn't we?"

This is a classic strawman. If a new AWB were to be passed without grandfathering in current owners, a whole new subset of felons would exist. Do you seriously think that your LEO buddies would not arrest someone for violation of the new law if he was found to be in possession of an EBR? This is what I said. Nothing more. I did not refernce the past, thus your strawman has crumbled.

Ouch.

To me, LEOs have their obvious uses. I will call them if needed,

I kind of figured you would.

but I will not trust them blindly. I have a healthy distrust of government and its agents.

I kind of figured you did.

You also said this: "But let me tell you something; so long as you live a predominantly peaceful and law-abiding existence, no one really gives a hoot about controlling you or anyone else."

This is very naive and almost utopian. You don't pay much attention to statments made by various legislators about what should be banned and criminalized. With the stroke of a pen, a man can go from law-abiding citizen to outlaw faster than my old crotch-rocket could hit 100mph. Are you telling me that the leftists in our government (those bordering on socialist as evidenced by their love for laws controlling behavior, programs redistributing wealth, etc), don't want to control the masses? Ha! People like Pelosi and Schumer are all about controlling the populace. That damned old 2nd amendment is in their way right now, but they're making progress chipping away at it.

My problem with license plate recognition systems, red-light cameras (a fight in our town right now), and surveillance like Boss Daley seems to like are that they give government too much power.

This has everything to do with the gun rights, even though bogie doesn't see it. One can make the connection if one puts forth a little effort. Intrusive government and erosion of gun rights are like peas and carrots.

Oh yeah. I see. Thanks for that much improved explanation.

Sometimes I think I'd rather take my chances with the criminals.

Yeah. I don't blame you. They actually are your friends. You can trust them and they aren't out to control you.
 
Cfriesen said:
As you wish.

Well, were you being a smartaleck? If not, then I apologize for my response.




Cfriesen said:
Oh yeah. I see. Thanks for that much improved explanation.

You're welcome.




Cfriesen said:
Yeah. I don't blame you. They actually are your friends. You can trust them and they aren't out to control you.

Touche'. I think you know what I meant. Billy Bob with the unregistered suppressor probably could be my friend as what makes him a criminal is mere possession of an item. Now, Lester the Molester is most certainly not my friend. Again, you know what I meant

BTW, how the heck do I quote posts around here? I've been typing out the html code to get it. Is there a button? If so, where is it? You quoted my posts. How. Please help...
 
Well, were you being a smartaleck? If not, then I apologize for my response.

No, I was not being a smartaleck... but you have no need to apologize as I frequently am.

BTW, how the heck do I quote posts around here? I've been typing out the html code to get it. Is there a button? If so, where is it? You quoted my posts. How. Please help...

You cut and paste the text you wish to quote into the reply window, highlight it, and click the little word bubble icon directly to the left of the # sign up above.
 
whatever

If you aren't driving a stolen car you have nothing to worry about.

and if you aren't a

1.)convict you dont need to worry about registration....
2.) Jew, worry about Nazis (circa 1930's)
3.)Scammer, worry about cashless society
4.) psycho, worry about banned guns
5.) escapee, worry about the chip implant in your arm
6.) wanted for questioning, worry about the Onstar bull**it in your car
7.) doing anything wrong, worry about the cameras everywhere in your town
8.) saying anything suspicious, worry about the Echelon system
9.) terrorist, worry about warrantless raids without knocking
10.) drug dealer, all of the above
11.) hacker, worry about computer surveillance
12.) conspirator, worry about your library records being recorded
13.) suspicious individual, worry about your movie rentals being logged
14.) food hoarder, worry about your VIP I Am Special Guy Discount Advantage Card history
15.) stockpiler of ammo, worry about limited shelf life munitions
16.) Militant preparing for war, worry about ammo taxes
17.)FREE HUMAN BEING, worry about gradual and complete encroachments of government over all of the liberties which define you.

Some of you pawns are just tools.
 
Some of you pawns are just tools.

Well... I guess it boils down to the pawn/tool's definition of freedom.

In my world, freedom does not equate to hiding from my government. It does not equate to hiding from law enforcement officers. It does not equate to hiding my gun ownership. You want to call that freedom, be my guest, but if I am going down, I am going down with my head up and on my feet, not hiding from anyone.

Law enforcement and government in this nation is truly accountable to its citizenry only while the peoples' will is exercised openly. Subcultures of fear and secrecy lead only to the delegitimation of otherwise sound social and political movements.

Hide your guns, hide your beliefs, live like a criminal, and you become perceived as one... plain and simple.

If you have nothing to hide, don't behave like you do.
 
CFriesen-

I'm unfortunately not shocked that people are scared of things they are unable to articulate. Call it dismay.

I’m sorry but LawDog just articulated quite a few things that the system could be used for. I suggested one just to get you started. My thought was more of the taxation based on where you drive and then that being used to link you to patterns of behavior deemed inappropriate at a later date. Governments are fickle to say the least. From there it is a simple matter to digress into other things, but LawDog did a great job already. Notice, I didn’t complain about the technology at a border crossing, where government control is appropriate. I simply mentioned something I observed the other day. Honestly though, you seem to be truly are naïve when it comes to mission creep, i.e.

Ummm Lawdog... the license plate recognition system is a non-specific and "mobile" platform... not a stationary surveillance camera.

What in the world makes you think it will remain in its current incarnation? Just like fingerprints were only kept for people convicted of a crime now everyone who is arrested is printed. Are the prints removed when you aren’t convicted of a crime? What about DNA? First child molesters, then violent felons, then all arrestees, sometimes people just pulled over, and soon, possibly, from every citizen born in the U.S. That is mission creep, it is happening.

Further, you act like it would be difficult to use the system to track people in their daily life. That shows me how little you know about the development of software specifically for that purpose and the broader implications of a government capable of such tracking. Computational power is cheap and getting cheaper by the day. You don’t need a human to put together the puzzle pieces, software can do it for you.

Anyhow, these are all bylines that we should have avoided when addressing you though because you are missing the real point. I didn't realize where you were operating from the first time, now I do so let's jump to the heart of the matter.

While there may indeed be possibilities, nobody has been able to offer an example of any potential new misuse of this system beyond some permutation of "they will know what you are doing".

The same argument used against the availability of military-style weapons to the general public; "Misuse could happen... stop it before it does".

Both of these are fallacies of logic and reasoning. The first (not from you but you say the same thing later) assumes that the government has the right to track your movements, which is morally wrong in a free society. In such a society you shouldn’t have to be subject to surveillance of any kind by the government because it represents an invasion of your privacy on an unprecedented scale. No matter how many crimes could be solved, it doesn’t matter, it is a moot point. A free society is not a surveyed society. You are presumed innocent until proven guilty and being surveyed night and day is not freedom nor is it a presumption of innocence it is a violation of your rights as a free man. While you may have nothing to hide, that does NOT give the government the right to look. There is a difference between that and what you are saying that you do not grasp.

The second is also a logical fallacy. The 2nd amendment prohibits government infringement of the right to keep and bear arms by the government. Thus, it means that you cannot ban guns whether they could be misused in the future, which is what you call “fear as a derivative of ignorance”. It is completely logical, therefore, to fight gun bans on that basis and your statement shows you understand that. In other words, banning guns preemptively infringes on your rights, it directly curtails them.

By the same token, we have protections in our Constitution that limit the scope of the government’s power to survey its citizens (warrants for search and seizure for instance). Therefore it is also wholly logical to fight against a system that could invade your rights before it can be implemented. In the latter case, by fighting a system that can infringe upon your rights through misuse you are protecting your rights. It is called safeguarding and is exactly what our constitution does! However this fight against this type of system that examines if you have something to hide, it is not a gun grabber’s "safeguard". In the first situation such a “safeguard” proposed by the antis actually infringes on your rights and in the second situation it protects your rights.

In this case, the “fear” you decry is actually not born of ignorance, but rather is reinforced from the plentiful examples of government control abused in the past. Fear of government power is one of the greatest emotions a free man can have and is a must if a government is to be kept honest. That is why you don’t understand LawDog and other’s worries because you don’t understand the principle nor do you, apparently, understand the history that makes such fear a genuine and moral ideal thatall free men should cherish.

I think this quote by Patrick Henry sums it up nicely.
Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.

Which brings me back to your very first quote. Fear of things that you cannot articulate, when such "things" could infringe upon your rights as a free man is not ignorance, stupidity, paranoia, or balderdash. It is the hallmark of a free man, an indication of principle, and the Basis for our Bill of Rights. You are free to sacrifice your right to live like a free man, but don't presume to sacrifice mine.
 
I’m sorry but LawDog just articulated quite a few things that the system could be used for.

Not a single one of which could actually be reasonably carried out, or would have any purpose to law enforcement.

I suggested one just to get you started. My thought was more of the taxation based on where you drive and then that being used to link you to patterns of behavior deemed inappropriate at a later date.

First, there is absolutely nothing stopping such a situation from occuring currently using technology no more advanced than a corner posted patrolman; as evidenced by the historic success of various secret police agencies in subjugating their citizenry.

Secondly, and much more importantly, the forces permitting the (d)evolution of such a socio-political environment will not be halted by the (attempted)limitation of hardware technology to government... are you joking??

Notice, I didn’t complain about the technology at a border crossing, where government control is appropriate.

Yes of course, and government control of criminal behavior through technology is not appropriate in that the definition of criminal behavior may some day include something that you may not agree with.

I simply mentioned something I observed the other day.

Really? Well then, I am going to mention something that I observe each and every day.

Each and every day, I observe the profound life-altering impact had upon the people in my community who have commited no transgression other than to attempt to get through their day, by individuals who feel that their personal deviant needs supersede the personal and sacred rights of all and any others.

Each and every day, I observe the unbelievable workload of law enforcement officers and other dedicated and honorable professionals who sift through mountains of material describing what no human being should be subjected to hearing or seeing in a LIFETIME, with limited resources and limited recourse, and nary a complaint.

Each and every day I watch as these men and women, stretched to the literal limits of their capabilities, provide comfort and consolation to the victims that they serve, and attempt to provide them answers that make some sense.

So when the opportunity avails itself to employ a useful tool, and it is met with a bunch of nonsensical rambling about "possibilities" and "police states" and "tracking"... when people begin tossing out universal, unfounded, and frankly idiotic, statements suggesting that law enforcement agencies are likely to begin databasing customers at liquor stores and selling their information to MADD... yeah, I find it sort of irritating.


Honestly though, you seem to be truly are naïve when it comes to mission creep, i.e.

Yeah well, with all due respect that would mean a great deal more to me coming from someone who didn't feel the route to preventing leftist social reform was the limitation of advanced technology.

Do you honestly think you can stop this train? Technology is not your problem. Society is. Your major concern should be ensuring the availability of technology to the citizenry, so that their will can be carried out. If you honestly believe you can keep technology out of the hands of the people who are most likely to commission it you are delusional.

you shouldn’t have to be subject to surveillance of any kind by the government because it represents an invasion of your privacy on an unprecedented scale. No matter how many crimes could be solved, it doesn’t matter, it is a moot point. A free society is not a surveyed society. You are presumed innocent until proven guilty and being surveyed night and day is not freedom nor is it a presumption of innocence it is a violation of your rights as a free man. While you may have nothing to hide, that does NOT give the government the right to look. There is a difference between that and what you are saying that you do not grasp.

I am not, nor have I ever, advocated undue government surveillance. The idea that the system we are discussing in any way represents government surveillance is ridiculous. As discussed, even if it were to be authorized as a databasing system, the information it would collect would be absolutely useless in that it would be completely random. It would make infinitely more sense to perform traditional surveillance on a subject than to attempt to decipher random contacts performed by a blind system.

This system is no more a surveillance or investigative tool than the genital enhancement spam in your email is medical advice or a love letter.

In this case, the “fear” you decry is actually not born of ignorance, but rather is reinforced from the plentiful examples of government control abused in the past. Fear of government power is one of the greatest emotions a free man can have and is a must if a government is to be kept honest. That is why you don’t understand LawDog and other’s worries because you don’t understand the principle nor do you, apparently, understand the history that makes such fear a genuine and moral ideal thatall free men should cherish.

I do not cherish what you apparently define as freedom to the extent that I am willing to cripple the infrastructure which protects the freedoms the rest of us enjoy... sorry. The rest of the society has a right to enjoy their lives in relative peace, comfort, and safety... even if it cause you a bit of disconcert.


Which brings me back to your very first quote. Fear of things that you cannot articulate, when such "things" could infringe upon your rights as a free man is not ignorance, stupidity, paranoia, or balderdash. It is the hallmark of a free man, an indication of principle, and the Basis for our Bill of Rights. You are free to sacrifice your right to live like a free man, but don't presume to sacrifice mine.

Really? You are willing to limit the ability of the keepers of your community to do their jobs in order to stand on hallowed principles that cannot be explained in practice but assuredly are valid by someone's reckoning?

Let us hope Deavis, that you maintain such inordinately high principles at such a time as your loved one's eve collides with mine.
 
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note to self #1241, "when presented with the same facts, not all people will reach the same conclusion."

to look at it from the leo's side, i wonder how many times the window/lens will need to be cleaned, or the software glitches solved, or hardware failures will occur. officer john just got one more headache he needs to fill out paperwork for, instead of getting a few more minutes of range time (that might actually save his life.).
 
They have the technology here in California already. I see them all the time at GUNSHOWS. That right they have a van with a large cylindrical plastic object on the roof. It looks kind of like a water tank on the roof of the van. It is about 3 feet high an 5 feet wide. In side of the plastic cover are several cameras. I remember see one in the parking lot at the gunshow at the Cowpalace in Daly City, California (near San Francisco). I have seen it before, when the they do surveys on the highway. They take down all the license plates of cars that pass a certain area and send the registered owner a letter ask how often they use that roadway. I know because I got one of those survey letters ask me about my driving habits.
 
I am an open minded kind of guy. I am more than willing to accept your assertions as soon as you are able to articulate a compelling demonstration of their validity. Back up what you are saying and I will adopt your position quite happily. Right now your argument is based purely upon rhetoric.

I do not however believe in crippling the systems of order in our society through the indulgence of illogical, uninformed, and irresponsible advocacy movements that have no demonstrable basis in fact.

Here are but two fairly recent examples that a five minute Google came up with.

---------------------------------------------------------
FBI Admits to Making Mistakes in Wiretaps

Friday, September 30, 2005
E-MAIL STORY
PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION

WASHINGTON — The FBI says it sometimes gets the wrong number when it intercepts conversations in terrorism investigations, an admission critics say underscores a need to revise wiretap provisions in the Patriot Act (search).

The FBI would not say how often these mistakes happen. And, though any incriminating evidence mistakenly collected is not legally admissible in a criminal case, there is no way of knowing whether it is used to begin an investigation.

Parts of the Patriot Act, including a section on "roving wiretaps," expire in December. Such wiretaps allow the FBI to get permission from a secret federal court to listen in on any phone line or monitor any Internet account that a terrorism suspect may be using, whether or not others who are not suspects also regularly use it.


Justice Department Calls FBI Wiretap Abuses Outrageous
Michael Sniffen, AP ([email protected])
Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:42:30 -0500

By MICHAEL J. SNIFFEN, Associated Press Writer

The FBI engaged in widespread and serious misuse of its authority in illegally gathering telephone, e-mail and financial records of Americans and foreigners while hunting terrorists, the Justice Department's chief inspector said Tuesday.

The FBI's failure to establish sufficient controls or oversight for collecting the information through so-called national security letters constituted "serious and unacceptable" failures, said Glenn A. Fine,
the internal watchdog who revealed the data-gathering abuses in a 130-page report last week.

Testifying before the House Judiciary Committee, Fine said he did not believe the problems were intentional, but were generally the result of confusion and carelessness.

"It really was unacceptable and inexcusable what happened here," Fine said under questioning.

Democrats said that Fine's findings were an example of how the Justice Department has used broad counterterrorism authorities Congress granted in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks to trample on privacy
rights.

"This was a serious breach of trust," said Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., the Judiciary chairman. "The department had converted this tool into a handy shortcut to illegally gather vast amounts of private information while at the same time significantly underreporting its activities to Congress."

Rep. James Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin, the committee's former Republican chairman, said: "I hope that this would be a lesson to the FBI that they can't get away with this and expect to maintain public support," said "Let this be a warning."

-------------------------------------------


Those shots are going to be taken in tens of thousand of random locations... not repeatedly in one parking lot.

There are already hundreds, if not thousands, of stationary traffic cameras (the red light cameras) which can be “conveniently” tied together with the roving cameras or devices installed in police cars.

If you have nothing to hide, don't behave like you do.

Respectfully, I must reiterate what has already been said. I don’t need to prove my innocence, the government must prove my guilt. I do not need to hide anything, the government must have a compelling reason to need to look. I don’t need to show how a new technology or idea would be overreaching or abused, the government must show me a good reason why they should be ALLOWED to have it at all.
 
Here are but two fairly recent examples that a five minute Google came up with.

Yes, law enforcement screws up. Regularly. And they breach trust. The point is (was) that this system is NOT EVEN CLOSE to the most efficient system of accomplishing what has been suggested. It COULD hypothetically be used for that purpose, but it would be utterly foolish given the random and blind nature of its deployment.

There are already hundreds, if not thousands, of stationary traffic cameras (the red light cameras) which can be “conveniently” tied together with the roving cameras or devices installed in police cars.

If you read through the thread you will see that the response is in reference to the assertion that the system is likely to be used to track preidentified individuals. This makes little sense in that the system will only make contact by random chance, viz. it will spot you here, there, and everywhere, thereby providing no immediately discernable pattern. The trouble required to plot and decipher the contacts is astronomical in comparison to any benefit. If a law enforcement agency wants to surveil you, it makes much more sense to simply do so traditionally. If they are unscrupulous and willing to violate all and any legal constraints in doing so, GPS is a great deal simpler.

Respectfully, I must reiterate what has already been said. I don’t need to prove my innocence, the government must prove my guilt. I do not need to hide anything, the government must have a compelling reason to need to look. I don’t need to show how a new technology or idea would be overreaching or abused, the government must show me a good reason why they should be ALLOWED to have it at all.

The tool isn't investigative. It is impracticle to employ it for specific surveillance. The tool is invaluable in its designated purpose. Used as such it saves taxpayer dollars by increasing LE efficiency, it lowers insurance costs, and it contributes to the restoration of order to the lives of those victimized by theft.
 
I'm thinkin that the type of person that would sit around worrying about this probably never drives anyplace interesting anyhow.
 
The point is (was) that this system is NOT EVEN CLOSE to the most efficient system of accomplishing what has been suggested. It COULD hypothetically be used for that purpose, but it would be utterly foolish given the random and blind nature of its deployment.

Nonetheless, you have asked for proof that this system would not lead to further intrusions. I gave one example of a tool that was supposedly to be used only in the discovery of terrorists, yet has been mightily abused. Why is it so difficult to imagine the same for this system as well?


This makes little sense in that the system will only make contact by random chance, viz. it will spot you here, there, and everywhere, thereby providing no immediately discernable pattern. The trouble required to plot and decipher the contacts is astronomical in comparison to any benefit.

There have been people experienced in computer systems who have said in this thread how easy it is to collate and sift data for patterns and other useful information. Same concept: you could make purchases all over the US with a credit card and just from that information alone, someone could discover quite a bit about your movements, spending habits, and general wealth levels.


The tool isn't investigative. It is impracticle to employ it for specific surveillance. The tool is invaluable in its designated purpose. Used as such it saves taxpayer dollars by increasing LE efficiency, it lowers insurance costs, and it contributes to the restoration of order to the lives of those victimized by theft.

I don’t disagree with this – I’m actually pretty neutral in regards to this particular system and it’s relative costs and benefits. However, if a system is practical and useful to help do all as you said, what about the LOJACK system? Hasn’t that been operating for many years, very successfully helping law enforcement to track stolen vehicles? The car is reported stolen, the LOJACK system is activated and police get the ability to find the car “many within the hour” (as stated on the LOJACK website).

Why bother having the cost and effort in implementing a new system which people will have no choice over and is ripe for abuse?
 
Nonetheless, you have asked for proof that this system would not lead to further intrusions. I gave one example of a tool that was supposedly to be used only in the discovery of terrorists, yet has been mightily abused.

I am aware that technology can be misused. I am aware that it is possible for government to abuse authority. I am aware that is possible for privacy to be intruded upon. I asked that there be a compelling demonstration of the validity of the assertion that the license plate recognition system is apt to be employed as a tool of subjugation of the general population in a manner more efficient than any other.

Why is it so difficult to imagine the same for this system as well?

Because there are better and more efficient ways of doing the jobs described already in existence. There may be an applicable misuse for this system as well, but it isn't any of the tasks that have been described to this point.

There have been people experienced in computer systems who have said in this thread how easy it is to collate and sift data for patterns and other useful information. Same concept: you could make purchases all over the US with a credit card and just from that information alone, someone could discover quite a bit about your movements, spending habits, and general wealth levels.

Law enforcement, etc., do not want to know "quite a bit about your movements". Contrary to popular media portrayals, investigators do not engage in or enjoy playing Clue. If you are the subject of an investigation, said agencies want to know specific details about you... who, where, when, why, how. They do not want to know that you have been within 1500 yards of the local adult video store 12 times in the last year. It's garbage information.

Think about it objectively. If your car's license plate had been photographed every single time YOU SAW a police car during the last 5 years, and that information had been compiled in a database... what do you think it would tell anyone about you? The answer is that SOMEONE who operates YOUR VEHICLE probably lives and works in a general location, and that is IT. Your VEHICLE will have been randomly photographed in close proximity to absolutely everything and anything in your community.

There is no mystical computer magic that can make sense of it.

I don’t disagree with this – I’m actually pretty neutral in regards to this particular system and it’s relative costs and benefits. However, if a system is practical and useful to help do all as you said, what about the LOJACK system? Hasn’t that been operating for many years, very successfully helping law enforcement to track stolen vehicles? The car is reported stolen, the LOJACK system is activated and police get the ability to find the car “many within the hour” (as stated on the LOJACK website).

LoJack is contingent upon user compliance. It is succesful when used, but has had little relative proliferation. This system is cheaper, more effective, and can be used in conjunction with LoJack. It also reduces law enforcement man-hours, which Lo-Jack does not by and large.

Why bother having the cost and effort in implementing a new system which people will have no choice over and is ripe for abuse?

The system is not expensive. Particularly in relation to its savingst to the taxpayer. Its potential abuses are largely hypothetical, and frankly, pragmatically undemonstrable thus far.
 
The earlier poster was right about the RFID's. Won't be long and they'll start putting them in license plates or on the car itself. Scanners will be everywhere (they already have them on tollways, they read your tolltag). That will make it much easier for the govt to track your mileage(think environmental impact tax) or to see when certain folks have been out traveling at "suspicious" times of the day. "Oh, but they can't sift thru that much data!" They don't have to. They put in a few pre-set parameters in the system, and the ones that look "suspicious" will be obvious in only a few seconds. Would you rather risk having your car stolen and not recovering it, or risk having the govt monitor every move you make in your car. (Of course, the govt could just require that every new car have a GPS system in it. About $100-$200 per car and they could even track you on a private dirt road...)
 
I asked that there be a compelling demonstration of the validity of the assertion that the license plate recognition system is apt to be employed as a tool of subjugation of the general population in a manner more efficient than any other.

What then would you find compelling if not concrete examples of the government and supporters of the Patriot Act telling everyone that the wiretaps wouldn't be abused? You or I cannot think of reasons how or why this license plate system would be abused, but I've shown that similar intrusions WILL be abused.

Because there are better and more efficient ways of doing the jobs described already in existence.
Which are what, exactly?


Law enforcement, etc., do not want to know "quite a bit about your movements".
I would prefer that you address my arguement and not the analogy. I said that data mining is quite simple and easy and you stated that police do not want to know about one's movements. Actually, I can see quite a positive use of such a license plate-reading system in that detectives could trace the movements of a suspect's vehicle months after the fact to place him or her at or near a crime scene, for example.


Think about it objectively. If your car's license plate had been photographed every single time YOU SAW a police car during the last 5 years, and that information had been compiled in a database... what do you think it would tell anyone about you? The answer is that SOMEONE who operates YOUR VEHICLE probably lives and works in a general location, and that is IT. Your VEHICLE will have been randomly photographed in close proximity to absolutely everything and anything in your community.
I can agree with this.


The system is not expensive. Particularly in relation to its savingst to the taxpayer.
Do you have any numbers, by any chance, that would tell me how much of a savings this would provide?
 
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