School violates mans rights in fear of another massacre...

Status
Not open for further replies.
With a 4.2 GPA, the kid should have been smart enough to know better.
Click to expand...
Yah.... most people should be smart enough to know not to go shopping at
night, wear that short skirt, or believe in the first amendment.

The problem with this is that it was in high school (a place where the first
amendment has no value). Had it been in a different venue he might even
been paid for it. The story is not my cup-o-tea but this is just ridiculous.

I especially like this part:
It is important to stress that the essay did not contain any specific locations or names. We did not feel the safety of the students or the staff was compromised
Click to expand...

Seems to me to be more of a far reaching liability issue than anything else.

Heck, I wrote "How to make an IED" in the 8th grade and got an A for the paper. This was about... 10 years ago.
Click to expand...


Indeed. In my senior writing class (12 years ago) I wrote a story about a
detective type who carried a .357 magnum. In one part he made a statement
to a group of bad guys along the lines of "You may get me but it will be
something you will never forget". Lots of violence from both the good and bad
guys (bad guys did some really nasty things too). No necrophilia though. I would
have received an A except for my bad spelling.

They went way too far on this.
 
I can understand a paranoid school district removing the student from classes. What I don't understand are the criminal charges. Disorderly conduct? He didn't engage in a fight. He didn't make an unreasonable amount of noise. It's a grand stretch to see his essay as something which "disrupted a lawful assembly of persons."

I hope the kid lawyers up, gets the charges dismissed, and sues the school. At most, this should have been an internal disciplinary matter
 
Crap, I'm glad I'm out of school a long time now. I remember doing a project on (shhhh) b...o...m...b....s. I did a lot of research, made a mock up cutaway out of a blimp model and playdoh. I researched the origins of black powder and the historical importance of Alfred Nobel all the way through the then modern day uses. This was late 70's early 80's.

If a student did that now, fugedaboutit! They had better be careful in history class when they discuss WWI and WWII. Come to think of it, we read and watched "All Quiet on the Western Front" in high school. that is probably verboten, now too, as being too violent.
 
How is this different than if he had said these things in the classroom? This wasn't some private journal entry he kept to himself, this was vulgar material he knew the teacher would have to read as part of her job. Is she required to read every filthy, disgusting thought that enters this jerk's mind? What if he had pulled her aside after class and told her he fantasized about killing students and having sex with their corpses? Is that okay, too?

For those defending this moron, would it still be "free speech" if he wrote a highly-detailed paper about a h.s. student who kidnaps, rapes, and kills his english teacher? Or is that freedom of speech, too?
 
I'd love to read that paper in its entirety (not just the snippets released by the press), to see how many grammatical errors it contained; spelling errors, too.

From what little I have seen, the paper's content seems to be a bit juvenile, indicitive of some level of emotional and social retardation.

As a matter of fact, it reminded me of Cho's "Richard McBeef".

Anyway, if I was his teacher, I'd have given him and "F".
 
I want to know which jail Stephen King is in? I'm guessing Quentin Tarantino is being kept under the jail.

Freedom of speech either means something or it doesn't. Unless he was making specific threats against actual real live breathing people, this is a clear violation of the 1st. Not that we really care about the silly BOR anymore.
 
Last edited:
If this had ended with getting sent to the office and a parent-teacher conference, I'd have no problem with it. If it had been cause for some minor disciplinary action, that would also be well within the rights of a school. The issue I have is that this lead to criminal prosecution. There is no justification for that whatsoever and sets a really bad precident if allowed to stand.
 
What if he had pulled her aside after class and told her he fantasized about killing students and having sex with their corpses? Is that okay, too?
Click to expand...

Apple, meet orange. Writing a fictional account is clearly different from expressing desires you mean to realize.

You can write a book or film a movie about assassinating a President. You cannot state that you, yourself, intend or desire to assassinate the President.
 
How is this different than if he had said these things in the classroom? This wasn't some private journal entry he kept to himself, this was vulgar material he knew the teacher would have to read as part of her job. Is she required to read every filthy, disgusting thought that enters this jerk's mind? What if he had pulled her aside after class and told her he fantasized about killing students and having sex with their corpses? Is that okay, too?

For those defending this moron, would it still be "free speech" if he wrote a highly-detailed paper about a h.s. student who kidnaps, rapes, and kills his english teacher? Or is that freedom of speech, too?
Click to expand...

There's no need for the First Amendment to protect only the kind of speech we like. It's there to protect to kind of speech we don't like--especially the kind we completely detest and want silenced.

If the First Amendment were intended to protect only speech we liked, a great many people would be walking around with their lips sewn shut and would have their computers confiscated.
 
The Supreme Court has ruled that the first ammendment applies to the states. Therefore, the state may not prosecute someone in violation of it. Of course, that doesn't mean the state won't try. I hope the school gets sued, big. That story sounds disgusting, but, if the school understood he posed no threat and he made no actual threats, they should be held accountable for trying to ruin this person's life.
 
1A

I agree that the kid's actions doesn't warrant criminal prosecution. He was looking for attention, and that was probably the long and the short of it. While prosecution would be a clear violation of his first amendment rights, I sincerely hope that he gets more attention from his idiotic play than he can enjoy.

Not funny, lad. Not funny at all.
 
I'll conceed that the kid's actions weren't criminal, but they certainly exceeded common decency. He knew his teacher would read what he wrote. She shouldn't be obligated to read whatever digusting thoughts he wants to put on paper.

Something's definately wrong with a kid who would turn in a paper like he did.
 
As a teacher I understand that when you ask your class to "express" themselves in any type of creative writing you either give them guidelines to stay within or you take what you get. So if I do not provide guidelines for the assignment then I am obligated to read what ever they write. As an aside in one of my freshman comp. classes I wrote a very graphic short story from the stand point of a werewolf standing outside the window of a woman he loved, but was destined to destroy. My professor was very impressed and my grades reflected that.
 
There's no need for the First Amendment to protect only the kind of speech we like. It's there to protect to kind of speech we don't like--especially the kind we completely detest and want silenced
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
With a 4.2 GPA, the kid should have been smart enough to know better.
Click to expand...
And when my honors English classmates were responding to a prompt about environmentalism by writing about picking up spent shell casings after the drive-by (don't litter!), and mass bovinicide (reduce methane), should they have been charged as well?

Funny thing about being that smart--you also tend to be really bored with school, at least at most schools. Give somebody with exceptional intellect and a controlled-thought zone ("school") a free pass, and it's no surprise when he pushes as far as he can.

Most of what I saw from my classmates (uh, yeah, my classmates...) was not only beyond-the-pale, it was also clearly written to rub the teacher's nose in the fact that they'd found a way around the usual rules. Maybe that's his mistake: he didn't set himself up to outsmart the teacher.
 
I know many will not agree, but this kid is pretty smart. The teacher explicitly said nothing was off-limits in the assignment (no censorship at all), so he wrote something that was about as vile as he could make it. He was testing the system.

And now he knows the system's response. A valuable lesson to learn.
 
Am I all alone here? I was not aware that the First Amendment covered a threat to shoot people. The student and the administration agree that he wrapped up his story by stating that, in the student's own words, "his teaching style might inspire someone to shoot up the school."

Young and stupid only excuses so much. Check your state laws; I'd be willing to bet that threatening to kill people is illegal where you live, too.

Additionally, all the stuff about what a great prospective Marine he was makes me wonder--if he'd been in the Marines when he decided to be an idiot and give his superior a "story" which ended by telling the superior officer that he "shouldn't be surprised" if he got fragged by this kid when they reached Iraq, that would have been OK?

Great, he said he was going to join the Marines--so he doesn't have to be a decent human being anymore? He can threaten to kill teachers he doesn't like, because he's such an American hero? That's a pretty good deal--he didn't even have to join up before he could use American War Hero Status to get away with being a smarmy, threatening little weasel.

I just can't imagine for the life of me that the Marine Corps would find his behavior any more impressive than the school does. Maybe I just don't get it.

What I DO know is this--those teachers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they DON'T report something like this, then they get blamed when a kid snaps. If they DO report it, they have to accept that now we'll never know whether that kid was going to snap, and thus everyone will naturally assume that he was a wunderkind who never would have hurt anyone.
 
He didn't use any common sense writing that, but he should sue the police department for wrongful arrest.
 
Prince Yamamoto: Lee is an asian name. If you look at the links in the first article you will see his picture. He is a very atheletic young man in addition to being inteliigent.

Moving on...

How can a teacher give no guidelines and then be angry with the result?

Don Gwinn: He did not threaten the school. People just assumed because it mentioned a school shooting it was a threat to the school. They went overboard.

Yes he does have the right to write disgusting things and controversial things. The 1st Amendment protects it.

As explained the GPA higher than 4.0 is due to a 5.0 system meaning he was in advanced placement classes.
 
Here is a the essay as it appears on the Tribune Website...

Link to essay.

Teen's essay
Editor's note and language advisory: Below is what Cary-Grove High School student Allen Lee says he wrote, according to his lawyer. The essay contains language some readers may find offensive.

Published April 27, 2007
Blood sex and Booze. Drugs Drugs Drugs are fun. Stab, Stab, Stab, S…t…a…b…, poke. "So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out two P90s and started shooting everyone…, then had sex with the dead bodies. Well, not really, but it would be funny if I did." Umm, yeah, what to wright about…… I'm leaving to join the Marines and I really don't give a (obscenity) about my academics, so why does the only class that's complete Bull ****, happen to be the only required class…enough said. The model citizen would stay around to vote in new board member to change the 4 years of English policy, but no one really stays around to vote for that kind of local crap, so whoever gets there name on the Ballet with a pretty face gets to do what the (obscenity) ever they want with local ordinance. A person is smart, but people are dumb selfish animals. We can't make rules for ourselves so we vote others to do it for us, but we can't even do that right, I meen seriously, Bush for President? And our other option was John Kerry who claimed to parktake in Vietnam Special Forces missions that haven't been declassified….(obscenity) Bull ****. So Power Flower Super Mario. Pudge, hook, rot, dismember "Fresh Meat." Mostly new/young teachers are laid back, and cooperative with students as feedback and input into the curriculum and atmosphere. My current English teacher is a control freak intent on setting a gap between herself and her students like a 63 year old white male fortune 500 company CEO, and a illegal immigrant. If CG was a private catholic school, I could understand, but *** is her problem. And baking brownies and rice crispies does not make up for it, way to try and justify yourself as a good teacher while underhandedly looking for complements on your cooking. No quarrel on you qualifications as a writer, but as a teacher, don't be surprised on inspiring the first cg shooting.

(The following is Lee's explanation of the essay above, given to the media by his lawyer.)


Authors Note: This production of writing is done in the most accurate manner I can depict of the original writing. Grammar and spelling mistakes are included at the best accuracy possible. The first phrase in questions is in fact a Green Day song. The second reference to drugs is in relation to the schools history of drug problems. I am personally clean of all controlled substances. The statement in quotes is done so as a non personal statement as I would have done in reference to a character for a story. The reference to the gun P90 is from a video game, combined with a reference to necrophilia as a comment regarding a seriously messed up situation. A situation such as the rape of villagers during a raid by U.S. troops in Vietnam. I really do not care too much about by continuing academia as in relation to grades. I do however believe on continuing my personal education, and I am actually still working for my classes. My views on the graduation requirements explain themselves. The reference to Mario and Pudge( a DOTA character) are completely random as is this essay. The reference to a person being smart and people being dumb is based on a quote from "Men in Black." I generally do believe the public opinion is best. The rest of the essay is rather self explanatory, the main statement in question I have already released a comment online about. I request that all information I have released is read together, and nothing given separately or as an excerpt as the administration has seen fit to do.

On an additional note, I have completed the MEPS (Military Entry Processing Station) examinations, and yes a psychiatric evaluation is included in the process. If I'm qualified to defend the country, I believe I'm qualified to attend school.


Copyright © 2007, Chicago Tribune
Click to expand...

It is not very graphic or detailed. Yes there is a lot of cursing but no more than in a few rated R movies out there. And the threat to shoot up the school is not apparent. It says I had a dream.... and it does not seem to be graphic or violent. More upset at the teachers and the administration. I think the English teacher turned him in because he was critical of the classroom and thats the real motivation.

Here is the assignment:

Assignment.gif

It looks like a free writing assignment that I used to do. It doesnt state any topics just what comes to your head. I dont think he should be punished or arrested for it either. The threat just isnt visible to my eyes. I figure a good talking to would be ok but that is it.
 

Attachments

  • Assignment.jpg
    Assignment.jpg
    62.3 KB · Views: 1
Don Gwinn: He did not threaten the school. People just assumed because it mentioned a school shooting it was a threat to the school. They went overboard.
Click to expand...
Tecumseh: I love you like a brother, but that isn't true according to Lee himself. HE put it this way:
According to a criminal complaint signed by Cary-Grove High School Principal Susan Popp and filed in McHenry County Court, Lee's free-form essay also included the line "as a teacher, don't be surprised on inspiring the first CG school shooting."

“At the very last sentence, I said that this teacher’s method of teaching could lead to a school shooting,” Lee, a senior at Cary-Grove High School, said Wednesday.
Click to expand...
Notice the article doesn't show us the criminal complaint, but it DOES NOT SAY that the criminal complaint had much to do with necrophilia images or the like--that's the stuff FOX News focused on because they knew it would get people to watch. What we DO know the criminal complaint included was the specific reference to shooting up HIS school ("CG") and blaming it on HIS teacher.
That is illegal in most if not all U.S. jurisdictions and it should be.
Go ahead and tell someone to stop doing something you don't like or "don't be surprised if you get shot." If they swear out a complaint, you probably will be arrested.
Now, maybe a judge or a jury will decide he's just a blithering idiot and it wasn't a serious threat, but let's not play games here. He threatened to use deadly force against his school.

If we've reached the point where a kid can actually tell people "Hey, don't be surprised if I shoot up Glenwood Middle School because Mr. Gwinn is such a jerk" and we're supposed to ignore it because the little darling is such a nice boy and his friends like him, then I'm in the wrong business. When DO we step in, in your opinion, if not when the kid actually says a shooting rampage is likely to happen in his school because he doesn't like his teacher? What in the world does the kid have to say to get your attention?

Yes he does have the right to write disgusting things and controversial things. The 1st Amendment protects it.
Click to expand...

Yes, and he has the right not to quarter troops in his home, which is exactly as relevant. Again, the only information we have about the criminal complaint does NOT involve "disgusting" or "controversial" statements. It involved a threat to shoot up the school.
The First Amendment absolutely does NOT protect threats to commit violence against people you don't like.

I feel like I've gone through the looking glass.
 
From Essay:
...as a teacher, don't be surprised on inspiring the first CG school shooting."
Click to expand...

Originally from Response by Allen Lee:
“At the very last sentence, I said that this teacher’s method of teaching could lead to a school shooting,” Lee, a senior at Cary-Grove High School, said Wednesday.
Click to expand...

I agree but I dont think he meant it as a threat but as an insult to the teacher. I would argue it as that. Given the information we have he is an intelligent young man who was just annoyed with a high school teacher. He did not make an specific threat but was just trying to piss off his teacher.

Oh and I love you too but as a brother. ;)
Either way he is going to be able to get inot the USMC where if he tries to piss of his Drill Instructors he should in theory get the punishment he deserves.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

A
  • Locked
Update on Cary-Grove High School Student who was expelled (IL)...
Replies
6
Views
870
DonP
D
george29
  • Locked
Proof - Constitution is no longer valid
2
Replies
47
Views
2K
Crunker1337
C
T
  • Locked
talk about website closes school
2
Replies
45
Views
2K
Wes Janson
W
D
  • Locked
(MI) Teacher's BB gun closes school
Replies
18
Views
15K
Tropical Z
T
D
  • Locked
Boy with gun in school not considered a threat
Replies
8
Views
696
gezzer
G
Back
Top