Cleveland Police chase water ballooners, shoot dog.

I would guess that this incident will result in a civil lawsuit against the officer and police department. They will quietly pay off at some future date.

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It will and they should. He DID shoot a chained up dog. The owner deserves compensation. That is a given, to me. The question is whether or not, in light of ALL of the facts KNOWN TO HIM AT THE TIME, it was reaosnable for him to do this? I say...I have no idea. Regardless, the owner should be compensated for his loss.

Mike

Another example as to why we need water-balloon control... There needs to be a background check prior to the purchase of these things. How many people must get wet before America and it's "Water Balloon Culture" understand the need to ban these items???

"And in reading, the mind is, in fact, only the playground of another’s thoughts."--Schopenhauer

Curse you, Coronoch, and your use of logic! CURSE YOU!

Shakes fist.

I know, I'll try to be more inflammatory and reactionary next time.

*hangs head*

Can't really make a comment yet as we don't know the full story, but at this moment my thoughts are as follows -

Though it seems like a childish prank, we have to bear in mind that throwing water balloons at cars is potentially dangerous. It's one thing to flick them at your buddies when they're not expecting it, but it's something else entirely to put someone's life in danger for a little amusement.

If the dog was threatening the cop, what else was he supposed to do? Just because the dog was on a chain doesn't mean it could not have reached the cop.

Though it seems like a childish prank, we have to bear in mind that throwing water balloons at cars is potentially dangerous.

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I was driving down a highway that was set under a residential neighborhood. (their back fences overlooked the highway by about twenty feet or so). I was going highway speeds, when WHAM! A pumpkin hits my hood.

It was a couple of days before Halloween, and apparently some dipstick decided it would be fun to chuck pumpkins at passing cars.

I had my wife, and a couple of very small children in the car. I almost lost it. If it had been tossed a fraction of a second later it would have gone through our window and probably killed one of us. Or if it had hit me, the driver, then I probably would have wrecked the car and killed all of us. (not that I almost didn't, that damn thing scared me so bad).

I tell you what. If I had spotted which house it came from, I wouldn't have just shot their dog.

So in a scenario like this, and you hit somebody's windshield with a water balloon at high speed, and the driver is surprised, and jerks the wheel, then it ain't fun and games anymore.

As for what happened in this case, we all know how good the news is at getting their facts right. For example, according to the Deseret News, I was caught smuggling surface to air missiles, land mines, and RPGs, but was let off with a warning. So I would be inclined not to be so quick to judge and condemn somebody based on my preconceived biases.

We have a prime example of the knee jerk defensive LEO reaction. This is why so many of us are so distrustful. There seems to be a belief that the primary job of an officer is to "go home alive" regardless of who else is injured or whose rights are trampled. Maybe those who feel this way should find another career.

No one wants to shoot someone's pet.

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I dunno about that, it seems to happen an awful lot.


SWeems everyone wants some trigger time.

"We have a prime example of the knee jerk defensive LEO reaction."

Where is the knee jerk reaction defending the officer? Pointing out simple inconsistencies in the story is knee jerk? I really don't see the knee jerk reactions on defending the cop after re-reading the thread, but there certainly are a lot condeming him.

We have a prime example of the knee jerk defensive LEO reaction.

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I would submit to you that it is a knee-jerk defensive reaction, period, and not LEO-specific. If a german shepherd mix (As this one seems to be, from the pictures) charges you, you better do one of two things:

Disable/dissuade it

-or-

Get out of the way

-or-

Pray for someone to help you, like the owner

Running with the assumptions-

STOP. I'll type it again for people who think that i'm exonerating anyone.

Running with the assumptions that the cop was charged by the dog, he did not realize that the dog was chained and/or he could not get to a position of safety fast enough, there is NOTHING wrong with him shooting the dog. If you were in that position, you'd do it, too, or you're an absolute idiot. Do you have any idea what a big dog can do to a human being? I do. I've seen a man's face half ripped off by a GSD. If you want to take a chance like that, be my guest. I'm not, and I don't expect any LE to do it, either.

Well, the LEO should not have been there, you say. Yes, he should have. He was investigating a crime. By the looks of it, this was the front yard of the house. He was walking up the driveway when it happened, assuming the media got it right (never a sure thing). Absent huge signs barring admittance, anyone (LE, CCW permit holder, you, me) could have been there legally, and he could have been there regardless of signage as long as he had reason to believe that someone he was pursuing was in the yard.

This is why so many of us are so distrustful. There seems to be a belief that the primary job of an officer is to "go home alive" regardless of who else is injured or whose rights are trampled.

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Dogs are property. Legally, it is exactly the same as if he shot the guy's car. Dog owners and dog lovers, of whom I very firmly count myself one, might not like this, but that's the way it is. Should the owner be compensated for his loss, since he seemingly did nothing wrong? Absolutely. Should the officer be required to wait until the dog was chewing on his sensitive parts before he shot? Absolutely not. WOuld it have been nice if the officer had seen the chain and could have estimated its length and just stepped back? Of course. That is obviously the best outcome. However, try figuring out if an animal is restrained while being charged. It's a little more difficult than you might think.

Maybe those who feel this way should find another career.

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It's hard enough to find qualified officers. Taking that attitude will ensure that no one with any sense volunteers to work for your PD ever again.



Mike

PS This post involves the reasonable assumptions that:

1. the officer was justified in being where he was
2. the officer could not see that the animal was chained -or- the officer saw that the animal was chained but could not get far enough away fast enough
3. the dog was actively charging the officer.

Change these facts, change my opinion.

"We have a prime example of the knee jerk defensive LEO reaction."

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Where is the knee jerk reaction defending the officer? Pointing out simple inconsistencies in the story is knee jerk? I really don't see the knee jerk reactions on defending the cop after re-reading the thread, but there certainly are a lot condeming him.

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Oh, I see what you're trying to say now. The fact that I, among others, am coming out and saying that the cop might (might!) have been justified is a knee-jerk LEO reaction? Is that right?

OK, then. Fair enough. I'll accept that it is a knee-jerk defensive reaction IF you can explain to the readers how it is NOT a knee-jerk offensive reaction to say many of the things that have already been said on this thread, AND how merely saying that the officer MAY have been justified (not was justified, just might have been) in shooting the dog is at all conclusive.

Some people seem to want to hear an echo chamber. They want to preach to the choir. When someone raises a discordant note ("hey, you know? This might not have gone down the way you're assuming..."), they get branded as apologists, knee-jerk defenders, etc. But it's funny how the people just running wild with assumptions, rhetoric, and conclusions the other way never get called on it, except by the "knee jerk defenders". It's almost like certain posters don't like to have their preconceived notions challenged...

I don't care if it's a damned English Mastiff, it was chained up.

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I don't care if the dog was chained up... s/he was on his/her owners' property.

Well, at least they didn't plant any dope in the dog's yard

Plant Dope

"Well, at least they didn't plant any dope in the dog's yard "

Thats true, because that happens all the time.

What I am referring to is the instantaneous out pouring of justifications from those who are leos. There are plenty of difficult, thankless, and underpaid jobs out there including police officer, teacher, emt and other medical workers, fireman, etc. They all require a lot of dedication to the public's needs and a certain amount of selflessness, and a great deal of responsibility toward the individual public.
Unfortunately, IMO, to many police officers tend to mix paranoia and self pity into a world view that encourages them to run over the rights of others. Do you think it is a coincidence that so many of these threads have so much negativity towards leos? Maybe the law enforcement community should look into itself for the cause of some of this. This isn't personally directed at any poster or moderator on this board, for all I know you are all excellent at what you do. But too many are not, and they wield too much power. The quick circling of the wagons whenever there is criticism has , in the past, led to the covering up of abuses.
Most people believe, often with good reason, that in a case like this, the officer did over react and will suffer no consequences because of it. If you can't see the point here maybe you are in too deep.
I listed other difficult jobs at the top of this post, and Ii have one of those, and I would say to anyone in any such position, if the job is causing you that much trouble, maybe you should look somewhere else. The answer to the problem of finding leo candidates does not include keeping people who shouldn't have the job.

If the dog was threatening the cop, what else was he supposed to do? Just because the dog was on a chain doesn't mean it could not have reached the cop.

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Just a thought for you guys here........... situational awareness! I mean looking where you are going and what is there in front of you and all, Might be a good idea. If the dog is big enough to be a real threat, then a person might just see him if he is paying attention to where he is going. Now I may be wrong, I don't know the particulars of the chase, so it could be just an honest mistake, but again I would think a LEO would try to be more aware of his/her surroundings than it appears here.

Some of you guys could really use looking over the commonly accepted regimen of critical thinking and logic.


And that comment is not directed at Coronach.

Why in the world is a cop chasing through people's back yards after water ballooning children with his gun out?

No wonder so few people trust cops anymore.

Ok, granted he was chasing suspects, but bottom line the LEO went into someone's backyard, and ended up shooting their dog. Now, I'm not sure about you, but if it was my yard, and my dog, I'd be pretty ticked off at the cop. I mean he just shot MY dog in MY backyard, WHILE IT WAS ON A CHAIN!

I will say, however, that based on the 8 sentences, I can't fairly judge the cops actions, my gut reaction is telling me that the cop probably could have handled it better. On the other hand, I'll concede that a big dog can do some serious damage, and being chased or lunged at by one is not something one should take lightly.

So, did he over-react? Probably(my opinion). Can I say that definitively? No.

We just. Need. The facts. We have some, but not enough to know whether this was a "good" shoot, but it was definitely NOT a blantantly bad shoot.

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The officer went onto private property (admitedly they may and must do that on occasion) and shot a dog that was tethered where it had a right to be. That's about all the facts that I need.

You know, if I cut across somebody's pasture with or without their permission, I don't have the right to shoot their expensive bull just because it puts its head down and snorts at me.

Mail carriers, UPS, Fed-ex, meter readers, etc don't seem to have to shoot dogs.

What really gripes me is that a few years ago when we lived in town, a large dog running loose attacked my daughter. The deputy (who is also the city cop and animal control) could not catch the dog without getting hurt. So he just let the damn thing continue running loose

a little story....

Dad's belt obviously wasn't administered enough for this "once stupid" miscreant ..... Dad's not to blame though ..... after watching my older brother get "busted" many times ... I had become a rather sneaky little imp.

In northern climates....the projectile of choice is snowballs...and after a lengthy career of throwing snowballs at cars, I managed to always escape punishment and live on to share this, my one and only water balloon story.

Once upon a time on a glorious blue sky spring afternoon in central Michigan, on the sixth floor of a college dorm, shortly after the cold hops were opened, a group of juvenile miscreants who should have know better took to launching water balloons out the window across the parking lot with a 6' long elastic (long before the day custom apparatus was available at Wal-Mart).

At the height of the jubilant fun, a knock was heard at the door. (note to self: never answer the door in such a circumstance). To the surprise of the tenant of the room, about eight very large individuals in football practice jerseys streamed into the room to express their displeasure that one of their cars had recently been wetted.

The unhappy football players then proceeded to push about the now sad miscreants and proceeded to toss several items of the tenants personal property out the window. The tenant screamed and begged that the invaders spare his stereo speakers, and the relenting brutes opted to scare the tenant out of his wits instead by simulating a human catapult impersonation.

About this same time, your author was discovered hiding (for shame, for shame) in the shower with his hands full of water balloons.

Thus ensued the resistance of the engineering geeks, and after much yelling and pushing, slapping, wrestling, a few punches and several broken water balloons, the invaders began to retreat.

Fortunately (for all involved) the campus LEO's were not called to the scene, the stereo was spared, all personal belongings were recovered and we lived to laugh about it.

And the moral of the story........

If Dad's belt isn't properly administered (emphasis on the word properly)....

a good a$$ kicking serves the same purpose quite adequately.

Unfortunately (from my perspective) in our society today, we've effectively removed most all consequences from the ill deeds of children, only to complain that the police or the schools haven't done an acceptable job picking up the pieces.

Here's the thing.

If I put myself in a position where I have to do something like shoot someone's dog in self defense, that might be justified in the moment, but I shouldn't have put myself in the position, I'm still liable for being there in the first place. EVEN IF I'm at work when I do it.

Same goes for LEO's.

Cleveland PD not even looking into the situation -- not crucifying the officer, just looking into it, if only for future training purposes -- is wrong.

We don't know all the facts. But do they? Do they care?

Do they care?

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Nope.

That is why you will almost never get any satisfaction at all when LE agencies deal with cases of alleged misconduct of their own officers. These things need to be investigated in an open and above board way by an independent agency.

What if it was one of the kids he had shot when a kid with a water balloon "lunged" at him? They would say the same thing, with the same result.

It seems that if you use the right words afterward, any behavior is acceptable.