Cleveland Police chase water ballooners, shoot dog.

OKay

"If for some reason a dog lunges at me I'm shooting it. Doesn't matter where I am. It's damn hard to focus on anything but the dog(certainly not his chain, length of chain etc..) when one is coming at you. ALL you see is teeth moving your direction really fast. Once a dog is within 10-15 feet it would be really hard to be able to do anything fast enough to prevent a bite."
Finally, some common sense real world posibilities that no one has mentioned.
But apparently quite a few on here would have no problem instantly estimating the length of the chain, determining if it is strong enough to hold the pissed off dog, whether the dog is really going to bite and the bacteria content of its saliva and the chance of any type of infection.

Great debate

"MY dog???Dead cop..."

Brilliant.

Anyone want to guess how big and ferocious the "guard dog" really was?

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Maybe it was a Bill Cosby Guard Dog? You know, the kind that pees on you with fright.

That cop is fortunate that there wasn't an armed civilian patronizing his yard at that late hour. If I was out back having a smoke, or what have you, and someone (anyone) came and shot my dog (a member of my family, more or less, and certainly important to my immediate family members, like kids) they'd have gotten a barrel full. Nevermind that I'd have taken it as a threat to my own life, as I'm sure anyone else in a similar situation would.

The dog was chained up, fer chrisakes.

So who protects us from the cops ? Do I need to install an anti-personel sytsem to protect my property ? More people have been killed about altercations about dogs, then women and land combined.

Well, I'm glad to know that pepper spray doesn't work on dogs, but it "works" on grizzly bears. Something to remember the next time I go to the mountains

OK, well let me just say this. If you are chasing Jack the Ripper, a rapist, or some crack head who has done something really wrong and you shoot an animal I have raised, cared for, and consider part of my family, well I won't like it, I WILL expect real compensation, and there will be some hard feelings, but I will more likey as not get over it. You come into my yard and shoot my family dog, while chasing a bunch of kids with water balloons and you and I will have a BIG problem.

Having the authority to do something does not mean that it should be done, and to be honest it certainly appears that this is a prime example of the adage "common sense is not so common!"

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First of all, no one, least of all me, believes that the dog's owner should be anything but upset. I'd be furious if a cop shot my dog.

Now, on it's surface, the underlying logic of this argument seems sound; cops can chase people, but darnit, if you're going to shoot my dog, it should be for something worthwhile, not water ballooning. This seems quite reasonable. Cops chase axe murderer through yard, and are tragically forced to shoot an innocent guy's dog. This is seems sad, but acceptable. Cops chase juvenile delinquent, tragically shoot innocent guy's dog. Wow, what stupidity. Give me a break guys, it was a juvenile prank!

Alas, the cop did not know he was going to end up tangling with a dog when the chase started. I assume he didn't realize he was going to be tangling with a dog until he was face to face with it. Now, when you get to that point, there's no do-overs. You can't say, "Whoah, timeout, Mr. Canine. I'm just chasing a juvenile delinquent." Just like there's no crying in baseball, there are no timeouts in foot chases.

The only way to achieve that laudable goal (only ending up in faceoffs with dogs for serious offenses), is to only chase people on foot for serious offenses. Are you OK with that? Are you really?

What's a serious-enough offense? Assault? OK. Burglary? That's a property crime. Yeah, but it's a felony, ok. What about theft? That's a minor property crime. Can we chase people for that?

You catch a guy stealing your lawnmower. You call the cops. The police show up. The guy bolts. Guess what? He runs off of your property (because he's trying to get "away"), and he doesn't run down the road (because he's not a complete idiot)...he heads across yards. The cops refuse to chase, because it is not serious enough. Are you OK with that?

I'll submit to you that you aren't. I'll further submit to you that you shouldn't be.

This is like a pedestrian version of vehicular pursuits. Police agencies nationwide reviewed their pursuit policies a few years back, and generally made them more restrictive. Why? They were chasing people for a lot of minor stuff and tragic wrecks resulted. What happened? There are more pursuits than ever, now, becuase people think that if they run, the police might not be allowed to go after them, so what the heck. Try it and see.

I'm not saying that there is never a good reason to terminate a pursuit, vehicular or pedestrian, but what I am saying is that if you make it a policy to not chase, the criminals absolutely will make it a point to run. BTW, what are many agencies doing now? Loosening up their pursuit policies, because tightening them didn't work, at best, or was counterproductive, at worst.

Well, I'm glad to know that pepper spray doesn't work on dogs, but it "works" on grizzly bears. Something to remember the next time I go to the mountains

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They're completely different animals. Pepper spray works on dogs, just not as reliably as you need, and not as fast. I have no idea how well Bear Spray works on bears, but I gather that one of the arguments in its favor is that handgun rounds don't really work too well on them, either.

Mike

Another example as to why we need water-balloon control... There needs to be a background check prior to the purchase of these things. How many people must get wet before America and it's "Water Balloon Culture" understand the need to ban these items???

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Exactly, our LEO's obviously need super-soakers with large capacity reservoirs to counter this clear and present danger.

For the LEOs that don’t understand the attitudes of some:

I’ll be honest and straightforward: I don’t like cops.

I certainly wasn’t raised to feel this way. My Father was a firefighter in a small Indiana city. Police and fire combined didn’t comprise 100 men. All of the firemen and cops knew each other. If I had ever shown disrespect to a cop my Dad would have kicked my butt around the block, probably more than once. But this was back in the days when police earned respect instead of believing that they automatically deserved it. (For anyone that may be interested I’m 54.) My attitude has changed dramatically over the last twenty years as did that of my Father. As the older officers retire they are replaced by new. I’m not favorably impressed by what I see. They strut around like ‘king squat’ with their knob hair cuts. They are arrogant, snotty, and condescending toward the ‘civilians’. All too many are nothing more than schoolyard bullies hiding behind their badges. Strangely enough my feelings are shared by some of the older officers I know. They’re not too pleased at the way things are going either because they get tarred with the same brush. But, they do nothing to change the situation so I feel no compassion for them.

You don’t have to break the law to incur their wrath. Just say or do something that they personally don’t like and you will get threatened with arrest. Some of the foulest mouths I have heard were on cops. I witnessed a man say G.D. something or other in front of a cop. (It was not directed at the cop in any way.) What was the cop’s response? “If you don’t watch your f’ing language I’ll arrest you.” Here is a truly fine example to set for us ‘little people’ that witnessed this event. I could write a number of examples but I’ll stop with one.

When or if cops finally realize that they are their own worst enemies and do something about it perhaps attitudes will change. Until then they deserve what they get. And the good ones don’t count as they do nothing to bring about the needed changes. After all, one must preserve the impenetrable ‘blue wall’ at any and all costs.

And historians call this "feudalism" .....

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Samurai ( lit. Servant )
.....

These followers of Bushido basically lorded it over the other "commoner" classes and were the lynchpin of the feudal system in Japan. Indeed, at one point, the Samurai were the only class allowed to carry swords at all.

The rank of samurai was strictly defined and regulated. No one could claim this status without the permission of the Shogun. This was just as well too, since the Samurai retained the right to "cut down and leave", i.e., to kill with impunity, and leave the body lying where it fell, no questions asked.

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The word 'Samurai' is synonymous with the phrase "One who serves". .... The status of 'Samurai' gave them certain inalienable rights within the social strata of Japan. A good example of this is would be Kirisute Bomen, or the "Permission to cut down and leave". In so many words this gave the Samurai the right, in any situation, to murder a commoner if he felt that he had been shown disrespect. Another perk of being a Samurai was leniency in the eyes of the law.
They weren't totally above the judicial process, but if a commoner and a Samurai committed the same altercation the commoner could receive a punishment as severe as death, while the Samurai would get off with a slap on the wrist comparatively.

...and what do either of the prior two posts have to do with the propriety of this dog shoot?

I understand that you don't like cops. Let's move beyond that and look at the situation.

Mike

There were posts that suggested that this was a case of ‘cop bashing’ and the pro-LEO’s can’t understand this attitude among ‘civilians’. This was a response as to why some folks don’t like cops.

How about just a little common sense.
The balloon was tossed from the second floor.
How about Knock on the Front Door?
Juvenal prank/petty crime=Hot pursuit??
Dumb,dumb,dumb.

Cops have the authority to pursue people through private property,

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Maybe thats the problem. Perhaps it would make some sense to stop police from their own stupidity by passing legislation to prohibit them from violating private property to chase childish pranksters who harmed no one.

One hopes for better judgment from sworn officers.

How about just a little common sense.
The balloon was tossed from the second floor.
How about Knock on the Front Door?
Juvenal prank/petty crime=Hot pursuit??
Dumb,dumb,dumb.

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You obviously didn't even read the first post.

That aside, on the subject of cops "nowadays":

A very close family friend is a retired cop(also served in the navy during WWII), and he shares some of the people who have posted's sentiment that cops today are, more so than in the past, bullies hiding behind badges.

I personally have met and dealt both "good" and "bad" cops. I once got punched in the stomach for "mouthing off" when a cop(undercover, or off duty, don't know which) decided to run by, nearly knocking me down at a bus stop. Apparently he was "in a hurry", though I wonder why he'd stop to harass me if he was(BTW I'm 18, was 17 at the time).

That being said, I understand that there are good and there are bad in every occupation, but LE seems to attract the people who are prone to a "We're better than you, and can kick you around" mentality. They(those with this mentality) also tend to profile, if I were 40 and dressed in a suit, as opposed to 17 and wearing baggy clothes, I doubt he would have done anything but continue on his way. I've noticed that this is also more prevalent among city cops, though not always, than with cops in rural areas, where everyone seems to know everyone else in the town. They tend to view everyone as their neighbors, because they are, and not just some other schmuck on the street. I have alot of respect in general for LE, as most of them are genuinely trying to do good, but there are some real [thought better of it, very unhighroad] cops out there.

As for my opinion on this incident, see post #72, page 3.

I once got punched in the stomach for "mouthing off" when a cop(undercover, or off duty, don't know which) decided to run by, nearly knocking me down at a bus stop. Apparently he was "in a hurry", though I wonder why he'd stop to harass me if he was(BTW I'm 18, was 17 at the time).

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If you're not driving a Maserati to school/work, you need a lawyer or certainly a better one.

Mannix said,

You obviously didn't even read the first post.

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Yes i did. I also read other reports, at least 4 of them.
It was a dumb mistake, and could have been handled better.

punched

so do you still mouth off?! sorry i couldn't resist

If it had been a K9 dog unit,and you were in your yard ,if you had shot the dog when it ''lunged'' in your direction,does any body think they would just forget it?No,there is a double standard when it is your dog or theirs.

992

I was still mouthing off after he hit me . He punched like a girl ! To be honest I was "protesting age-based prohibition" at the time, if you catch my drift .

Yes i did.

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Then you should know it wasn't out of the house, the water balloon incident happened elsewhere. The suspects were just cutting through the area and the cop was in pursuit.

992...

That is indeed a good point that hadn't occured to me before. If I'm in my backyard and a Police K-9 appears out of nowhere and looks to be running at me and I shoot him, what then?

Biker

More people have been killed about altercations about dogs, then women and land combined.

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Riiiiiight. I'm not even going to ask you to cite your sources for such BS.

People, open your eyes to the possibility that MAYBE the media got some of the facts wrong?

Oh, no, not the media! Why, I always take their word as gospel when they tell me, the uninformed public, about assault weapons, automatic revolvers, and armor-piercing hollow-point incendiary explosive .17 HMR ammunition being the number one cop-killer round!

Then you should know it wasn't out of the house, the water balloon incident happened elsewhere. The suspects were just cutting through the area and the cop was in pursuit.

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Wrong. Again.
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1178008690327380.xml&coll=2

The officer was at the home, in the 5000 block of Turney Road, after a motorist complained that someone on the second-story porch had thrown a water balloon through his open car window.

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It was just Dumb.

as someone who had officer bark come at me for using a nail gun in his yard i can only talk about what i did i stopped shooting and sat very still till his partner got him and i was ever so grateful that argus was well trained and stopped when i stopped i was face to fang with a force of nature.