To those who would deny rights to ex-cons

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chieftain said,
The list begins with Pelosi and Reid and runs down the leg, sorry, down the Dimocratic roster. It is part of the Dimocrat agenda. Has been published and broadcast multiple times. Want quotes, look it up. Even a New York Times editorial.
gc70 said,
The Democrats want to restore the voting rights of felons. I am waiting for them to adopt a similar stance on firearms.
Wrong, and misleading.
The wanted voting right for those still in Prison. This has nothing to do with the restoration of rights.
Most states have some Path to restoration on the books. Some automatic some not, all different. The FED and the NICS system override state laws. This is wrong,but it is done.
The LAW says that MY rights have been restored, a policy prevents me from exercising those rights.
 
As a recovering addict, I guess I can say I am glad I was never convicted of a felony. I commited many just going about my business attempting to score drugs.

That in of itself is a felonious repeated behaviour.

Some felonies are rediculous!
 
Well, for my first intrusion here, I'll say that like others have said, If they are too dangerous to have guns they are too dangerous to be free. If not, then they should be able to defend themselves.
 
jselvy
If we can deny, without providing for defense, the tools of self defense to any man then how can we baulk when those self-same tools are denied to anyone else.
Easily, if the one case is obviously different from the other.
So you would allow weapons in prison? What you say makes no sense – literally.

This is not a matter of trust.
Says who? Of course it is a matter of trust – if we could trust that ex-cons posed little or no threat, we would not be discussing this.

Our legal system is predicated on the ideal of "innocent until proven guilty" yet denial of this right to former convicts on the basis of "they might reoffend" flies in the face of this. The Brady Campaign uses this rationale to justify that all firearms should be removed because someone "might offend" and if the argument is not right one way it is invalid in any way.

So if an argument is not right when used by a lying, exaggerating bigot, it can never be right in some other circumstance? That would invalidate just about every argument ever made, wouldn’t it?

If a single citizen is not free then inherently no citizen is free.
That’s silly. Then no citizen has ever been free, nor ever will be.

Are you willing to take personal responsibility for those you would keep disarmed?
Of course not. The threat they pose is THEIR responsibility, not mine.
And, if you cannot make a moral distinction between violent felons, and small children, you should not have either in your care.
 
Amen

Zundfolge
Making it illegal for a released felon to posses a firearm does not stop them from doing so, it just makes it illegal.
And the truth shall … be ignored by 90% of those you reveal it to. Hang in there.
So the only released felons that are NOT going to posses firearms is the ones that are rehabilitated.
Needs revision – that implies that ALL recidivists will possess firearms. Seems unlikely.
 
You must be joking right?

You think this is a Democrat position? You honestly think Republican law makers would support giving ex-cons the right to legally own firearms?

I don't think it is their position, I know it. Repeatedly stated, both in print and broadcast media the Dimocrats have asked for legislation restoring "full" rights to convicted felons that have "paid their dept" to society.

Are there Republicans that want that too, yup. But it is NOT a stated agenda item of the GOP.

Pcosmar stated:

Wrong, and misleading.
The wanted voting right for those still in Prison. This has nothing to do with the restoration of rights.
Most states have some Path to restoration on the books. Some automatic some not, all different. The FED and the NICS system override state laws. This is wrong,but it is done.
The LAW says that MY rights have been restored, a policy prevents me from exercising those rights.

Restoration of rights means restoration of rights. Now, I ain't to smart and I am limited to the english language......

You are right that most states do have a a path to full restoration, not all. Please state the policy that you speak of in your state please.

Romma stated:

As a recovering addict, I guess I can say I am glad I was never convicted of a felony. I commited many just going about my business attempting to score drugs.

That in of itself is a felonious repeated behavior.

Some felonies are rediculous!

You should be glad you didn't get caught committing a felony.

I do agree that what is and isn't a felony needs to be reviewed. More emphasis on common law, and less discrimination the crime actions i.e. hate crimes and such. Assault and Battery is assault and battery.

Also, during the Cold War there was the concept of convergence theory. The Soviets would become more relaxed with their laws and we would become more restrictive. Seems to be true to a large degree.

The difference is there is a revolution in this country every two years. We the people have the power to change the government. The only folks that don't believe it, are those that have not been DIRECTLY involved in that revolution. GET INVOLVED. Just because someone else wins by a democratic election doesn't mean they are wrong or "bad". What it means is you and your side didn't do what it needed to do to win, or the majority of folks voting didn't agree with you.

By the way, before folks start screaming about the 2000 Presidential election, remember to be president you need to win the electoral college vote, not the popular vote. Don't like it, change it. Called a Constitutional Amendment. Hard to do, yup. The only thing stopping it from being changed is that it is hard to do, and a majority of voters don't agree with you.

Remember that the only folks that count, are those that vote. If you don't or can't vote, you don't count. Want to change that, change peoples minds. It isn't easy to do, but if you have a good idea, over time, folks do and will change their mind. If you work hard enough at it. Remember though, often there are folks on the other side of any issue that will be working against you as you work against them.

Remember the old legal adage:

If the facts are on your side pound the facts.
If the Law is on your side pound the Law.
If neither the Law or the Facts are on your side, pound the table.

The tv series theme song, sung by Sammy Davis Jr used to say it best. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." In our society, often by law, the debt doesn't end walking out the door of the prison.

Go figure.

Fred
 
THIS IS FROM MISSOURI.
Automatic Restoration of Rights:
Civil Rights: Person convicted of any felony offense may not vote while incarcerated or
while on parole or probation, but right to vote is automatically restored upon final
discharge from sentence. Mo. Rev. Stat. § 115.133(2). Misdemeanants are also
disenfranchised while serving a prison sentence. § 115.133(1). Persons convicted of “a
felony or misdemeanor connected with the right of suffrage” are permanently
disenfranchised, unless pardoned. § 115.133(3). See also Mo. Rev. Stat. § 561.026. The
right to hold office is restored upon completion of sentence (unless the crime was
“connected to the exercise of the right of suffrage”). §§ 561.021(2)-(3). A felony
offender is permanently disqualified from jury service, unless pardoned. § 561.026(3).
Firearms: A person convicted of any “dangerous felony,” an attempt to commit a
dangerous felony, or of a crime under the laws of any state or of the United States which,
if committed in Missouri, would be a dangerous felony, may not possess a concealable
firearm for five years after conviction or release from confinement for such a conviction,
whichever is later. Mo. Rev. Stat. § 571.070.1(1). A person who has been convicted of a
felony under the laws of any state or the United States may not obtain a permit to acquire
a concealable firearm. § 571.090.1(2). Without such a permit, it is illegal to purchase,
lease, borrow, exchange, or receive a concealable firearm. § 571.080.1(1). Only a
pardon will restore firearms privileges

, but right to vote is automatically restored upon final
discharge from sentence.
I do vote.
 
You should be glad you didn't get caught committing a felony.

I said convicted... Who says I didn't get caught? ;)

The irony is that the Police person that signed off on my permit is the one that caught me (several times)... :evil:
 
In a perfect world

A J Dual
Yes, but most of us who feel that someone who's returned to society can have a firearm also feel that violent and sexual offenders should never get out.
I agree but in our society that is not always the case. In the state that I live there is a "three strikes law' for violent offenders, we wouldn't need that if violent offenders were incarcerated until rehabilitated. Rehabilitation is difficult to define let alone prove.

And that our penal system wastes a huge proportion of it's beds on non-violent offenders, forcing the "revolving door" justice on the violent ones.
Agreed, but again, there are a lot of changes in the Justice system that would need to be effected before I would be in favor of arming convicted felons. So many changes in fact, that I don't think that they will ever happen .
Zundfolge
You're falling into the same fallacious logic that the antis use.
Not exactly, responsible gun owners don't commit crimes, especially with their guns.

Making it illegal for a released felon to posses a firearm does not stop them from doing so, it just makes it illegal. So the only released felons that are NOT going to posses firearms is the ones that are rehabilitated.
Agreed, but until there is a massive overhaul of the Justice system there is no way to seperate the "wheat from the chaff" and I am uncomfortable giving all released felons the right to own guns and waiting for the bad ones to identify themselves by their actions.

In a perfect world people wouldn't need guns for protection. It is the criminal element that makes us feel as though we need them. Until all violent criminals are incarcerated until it can be proven that they will not use guns in a violent and criminal manner they shouldn't be able to "legally" own them. Remember, they have already proven that they would.

I realize that many felonies are committed without the use of firearms, but until there is a change in how they are classified ie. violent or non violent, with intent or without etc., the law must err on the side of "no guns for felons.
 
Not exactly, responsible gun owners don't commit crimes, especially with their guns.
Many of the arguments against are the some ones used by the anti gun crowd.
Legal gun owners+ First offense=
Otherwise honest people Commit crimes.
Police Officers (legal gun owners) commit crimes.
Ban all guns to stop crimes.

Logic fails.
 
Detective Weems alone proves that the Police shouldn't be armed.

Jefferson
 
We take away driving priveledges for those that can't follow the rules.

I believe the loss of gun & voting rights should be part of the punishment for a felony conviction. particularly if a weapon was used in the crime. I've earned & value my priveledge to carry a gun & vote, I won't support giving that right to someone that doesn't.
I could be swayed to allow a non violent 1st time offender to have his rights back after a year or so of living right. I'd want it reviewed on a case by case basis.

As far as worrying about a convicted violent criminal having to survive unarmed like his victims were? I'll just have to live with it :rolleyes:
 
Logic fails?

pcosmar

Many of the arguments against are the some ones used by the anti gun crowd.
Much of the air is also breathed by the anti gun crowd but I still breate it.
Legal gun owners+ First offense=
Criminal.
Otherwise honest people Commit crimes.
So give the "honest" murderer back his gun? When you were incarcerated how many inmates did you meet that were "guilty"? By that I mean owned up completely to their crimes and took responsibility for any other crimes they may have committed and weren't charged with?
Police Officers (legal gun owners) commit crimes.
Thats when they become criminal. they shouldn't get their guns back either.
Ban all guns to stop crimes.
That is so not what I said. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Logic fails.
In your argument it does. How many of the inmates that you were incarcerated with would you have over to your house? How many would you have over if you knew they were armed?
 
Wheeler44 said,
So give the "honest" murderer back his gun? When you were incarcerated how many inmates did you meet that were "guilty"? By that I mean owned up completely to their crimes and took responsibility for any other crimes they may have committed and weren't charged with?
Many, most of the worst were proud of it.
Police Officers (legal gun owners) commit crimes.
Thats when they become criminal. they shouldn't get their guns back either.
It was stated that only criminals commit crime. That is a false assumption.
In your argument it does. How many of the inmates that you were incarcerated with would you have over to your house? How many would you have over if you knew they were armed?
Many, I knew some good people inside. They were there because of bad laws or bad lawyers. Some were even found to be innocent after a few years.
I also knew some good Guards, and they did come by after I was out.
 
If the system worked in a sane & reasonable manner, then murderers, rapists, pedophiles, people who torture & abuse children and old people, etc would be executed, and then MAYBE those others who do their time quietly, and who are released could safely be offered some pathway to regaining their rights. But make no mistake, I have absolutely no sympathy, after working within the rules for all my life, to get all teary-eyed over the plight of someone who decided that they were too special to live with the rules the rest of us seem to struggle with and got caught, and now want a do over...Sorry, bub, but you gotta earn it, and I don't think it should be easy.
 
Reposted with permission from the author from this PAFOA.org post. I think it touches on much of what has been talked about in this thread and I thought it made some good points. The PAFOA thread itself is actualy quite good in its own right as well.

Just thought I'd share something I wrote for a couple of discussion lists I belong to:



The Right Argument in Support of the Second Amendment


So much time is spent in gun circles pondering how to bring more people into supporting the passion that is the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. All manners of arguments are created, some using empirical data and statistics to show that crime is not caused by guns or that guns actually reduce crime; others citing historical significance showing that our history and the basis for the power and security of our citizenry is an armed populace.

Personally, my experience is that if you attack the issue from the basis of ALL rights; that all free people have them at birth and they cannot truly be taken away (not even by law) and that they are all important in order for a free people to flourish despite promises of safety or prosperity in the absence of said rights, it's much easier to bring people around to the support of the Second Amendment.

However, in order to do this, the deliverer of said message has to believe it as well. So many pro-gun people aren’t really pro-rights, they’re merely on the wagon of the Second Amendment because they have a personal connection with firearms (i.e. hunting, self-defense, hobbies, competition). The problem here arises when an issue of firearms rights crops up where such people have no personal connection. For instance, the issue of private citizens carrying guns for protection. Some people, gun owners included, don’t want to allow others to carry around a gun whenever it pleases them. This belief ignores the premise of an unalienable right; it cannot be given to someone by someone else, they already have it at birth, and thus, it cannot be taken away no matter how good the reason seems to be.

Consider the particularly contested issue of individuals released from prison having their Second Amendment rights honored. Many gun owners believe that any person with a criminal past should lose their Second Amendment rights forever (if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime). This makes sense because such people are often only supporters insofar as it appears reasonable considering their connection to firearms (i.e. you might find a lot of hunters who feel that ex-convicts should be allowed limited access to hunt but should never be able to own a handgun for self-defense, even though the Second Amendment is, in fact, not about hunting or a right to do so). The real conflict here is that again, it ignores what a right truly is and what can be done to it, when, why and by whom.


When one is incarcerated, while their rights still technically exist, they may not exercise them because they are not presently free. An abuse of freedom is not exercising it, and when one abuses their freedom in this country, they relinquish many of their rights, but only to the degree necessary in order to facilitate punishment. People in jail have very limited rights against search and seizure without a warrant, to peaceably assemble, or to be secure in their persons and papers…they also have no right to keep and bear arms while incarcerated. Being unable to exercise one’s rights is not part of the penalty, it is simply a necessity in order to conduct the punishment for the crimes one is convicted of (which is obvious as far as the Second Amendment goes as an armed prison population cannot be incarcerated against their will).

While in jail, the right to practice one’s chosen faith is maintained, so is the right against being subjected to cruel and unusual punishment; this is simply because rights are not taken away as part of the punishment, they are only put into a sort of civil limbo, but again, only when is necessary in the course of the incarceration. If we take an honest look at which rights are conveyed to inmates and which are suspended, it is readily evident that prohibiting the exercise of certain rights is not, and was never meant to be part and parcel to the punishment and/or course of rehabilitation prescribed through the legal system for a given crime.

To suggest that once out of prison, after the reasonable debt required has been satisfied, one should permanently lose the freedom to exercise their rights goes far beyond the scope of power that the government or any authority should have in this country. Even if the majority of free citizens supported such an idea, I would argue that it certainly falls under cruel punishment (of “cruel and unusual punishment” fame). Being punished for one’s entire life for a crime that may have been so minor as to require a two year jail sentence is most certainly cruel, and particularly unusual in that if the crime justifies a lifetime punishment, it would certainly justify a lifetime commitment to incarceration.

If a person were convicted of a crime and sent to jail, no reasonable person would suggest that such an individual should be prohibited from exercising their religion or going to church as often as they saw fit once they were released. No reasonable person would suggest that someone who was once incarcerated should be subjected to torture after their release, nor would any reasonable person suggest that said person should be subjected to random body cavity searches or searches into their homes, persons, banking records or personal property without a warrant and/or probable cause. Furthermore, no reasonable person would support an ex-convict being summarily jailed without due process, without the opportunity to a defense against the charges or in the absence of the state being able to articulate the offense and the burden of proof required to show that a crime had actually been committed by said person.

So why then, do we have gun owners, individuals who live and breathe the very essence of a right when it comes to their guns, so ready and willing to strip someone else of their rights in a manner not authorized by the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? For the very same reasons that some people think that the religious freedom of the First Amendment doesn’t apply to Muslims, Jews or Wiccans, or if it does, only to the extent that their own religion is given an amount preferential treatment or acknowledgment above all others.

For the same reason why some people feel that the Freedom of Speech doesn’t protect political or social dissidence, pornographic materials or free expression in music, literature, film and art if their own views or tastes are offended.

For the very same reason that some people feel that freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure without a Warrant and Probable Cause, the right to a Speedy and Public Trial by Jury or protection from being Deprived of Life, Liberty or Property without Due Process doesn’t exist if the target is the same faith, nationality or skin color as someone that committed an act of war, terror or treason against this country or if the target is merely suspected of being in league with or of having similar convictions, goals or aims as those people.

That reason, which is the same in all of the examples above, and is virtually the same in all cases where an individual or group attempts to make a case for infringing on the rights of others, is that, most people are only into freedom as deep as it personally affects them, they could care less for anything above and beyond what level of freedom they deem useful to their own beliefs or purposes.

Rights are defined in the extreme; privileges are defined by boundaries and limits. If one can do as they please, so long as no harm is being done to another, that’s a right, that’s free, that’s liberty. If one can only do as they please so long as no one’s sense of decency, taste, sensibility, security, morals, reason or politics is being offended, that’s a privilege.

When we say, ‘you have the right to practice your faith, so long as I approve of it’, or ‘you have the right to keep and bear arms so long as I still feel safe and comfortable with the idea of you having a gun’, or ‘you have the right to speak your piece so long as I don’t get offended’, or ‘you have the right to due process and to be secure in your person, property or papers so long as I trust you’, we’re really not saying anything about rights; we’re talking about giving someone a benefit within the boundaries that we’re agreeable to.

Privilege is defined as, “A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste”. Pay close attention to the part where it says it is “granted”; rights aren’t granted by anyone, we automatically have them at birth, they’re the default setting. Since no one granted those rights to us, no one can revoke them no matter how sound or compelling their reasoning is. So the issue is not whether or not we are or should be comfortable giving anyone anything (anything granted is a privilege), the issue is whether or not anyone can take certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, away from a free person. Since no one gave us those rights, not individuals, not society, not the majority and not the government, the answer is no, not in this republic. The moment people wake up and embrace this truth is the moment that we will begin our return to a free people, and support for all rights, including the Second Amendment, will be the default, just as it was intended. The Bill of Rights is a package deal, a package of rights which are defined in the extremes (as all rights inherently are); there is no such thing as half-way free. That’s the right argument in support of the Second Amendment, everything else is pleading for the granting of a privilege in lieu of rights we already have.
 
I feel rights should be restored after a certain period depnding on the crime. There are also some people who should never have their rights restored. Violent felons should have given thought as to what the consequences would be, The fact is mosy of them don't care about anyone or anything. Sex offenders? We should make it easy for them to have a firearm? At the other end I don't think someone like Martha Stewart offers any danger to anyone if she was allowed to purchase a firearm.

Some of the arguments people put up don't seem to make any sense for example:

they can buy guns illegally anyway

So we should make it legal for them to buy guns. In doing so they are displaying no respect for the law anyway.

if they are so dangerous they should not be let out on the street

While we keep on defining our rights under the 2A there is also rights prohibiting cruel and unusual punishment. All Federal and State laws would have to be reviewed and sentences adjusted to keep everyone locked up. Who would be the one to determine if they are still dangerous? Big Brother?

they would be unable to protect themselves

The argument is often given that people will murder and people will commit suicide even if all guns were banned. Let the convicted felon use the knife, baseball bat, etc to protect themselves. How they protect themselves without a firearm is their problem.

to keep and bear arms is a right

This argument supports allowing illegal aliens, the mentally incompetent, habitual drug users, alcoholics, and people advocating the violent overthrow of the US having the right to have guns. We would have to allow terrorists to purchase firearms. How do all these other people protect themselves if they are prohibited from owning firearms

everything's a felony now

I don't have any friends or family that have been convicted of a felony so I don't have any compassion for this statement. Someone mentioned that they never taught you in school what becoming a convicted felon does to you. This would seem to be a likely argument in a nanny state. Whether it was my parents or school I had a good idea of what commiting a felony can do to you before high school.

In summary I agree there are some situations where rights should be restored but I vote no to blanket restoration.
 
Why not?

Felons get their driver's licenses back when they get out of prison, why not guns and the right to vote?

Go ahead and ban our guns, then we'll become victims of stabbings.
ban knives and we'll become victims of grape fruit spooning.
ban kitchen utensils and we'll become victims of strangulation
Ban hands and we won't have the ability to feed ourselves.

See how gun control will become the extinction of our species? Satirically, of course.
 
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