SHTF crowd gets a little smaller

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trueblue1776

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4 in Ala. guilty but deny being militia

By JAY REEVES, Associated Press Writer Tue Jun 26, 5:48 PM ET

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. - Four northeast Alabama men pleaded guilty Tuesday to federal weapons charges and said they were arming themselves because they feared terrorism, a failing economy and the possibility of martial law being imposed in the United States.

However, the men denied prosecutors' allegations that they were members of a militia that opposed the government and immigrants.

Appearing one at a time in court, the four said their group didn't have a name and stockpiled weapons with no plan to attack anyone.

"We were scared that some things might deteriorate into some bad things over here, that there could be some more foreign terrorist attacks, and we were just getting ready to defend ourselves," defendant Raymond Kirk Dillard said.

James Ray McElroy, who lived in a makeshift tent near Dillard's ramshackle camper, said he "got together with some boys to make some grenades" not realizing it was illegal to have such explosives. He told U.S. District Judge U.W. Clemon they were scared "of a decline in the economy."

"We were just building them to protect ours and our own," McElroy said, adding, "We were also afraid of terrorists."

"You were afraid of terrorists coming to DeKalb County?" the judge asked.

"To the United States, your honor," McElroy said.

Neighbors and authorities have said Dillard railed against the government and Mexicans, but he denied a link between the group's weapons and taking any action against illegal immigrants.

Authorities have said the group was known as the Free Militia or the Alabama Free Militia, which the defendants denied. Assistant U.S. Attorney Michael Whisonant said prosecutors would likely present evidence about the group's operations and plans at sentencing, which was not immediately scheduled.

Whisonant said Dillard, 46, was a militia leader who bestowed a military rank to members. Dillard pleaded guilty to six charges including conspiracy; making 10 unregistered hand grenades and a silencer; illegal possession of a handgun by a convicted felon; and possession of two unregistered grenades made by himself and the others.

McElroy, 20, Adam Lynn Cunningham, 41, and Randall Garrett Cole, 22, also pleaded guilty to conspiring to make hand grenades and other weapons charges.

The men face prison sentences ranging from 10 years to 50 years and fines from $250,000 to $1.5 million.

A fifth man, Bonnell Hughes, pleaded guilty Monday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070626/ap_on_re_us/weapons_raids;_ylt=AgVzWxKqbfNfG5hW.UTYjeNbIwgF
 
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What is intrinsically wrong with being in a militia? According to my reading of the Constitution, Militia Act and the writings of the Founding Fathers all adult males are members of the militia. As far as opposing the government and illegal immigration how is that any different than the actions taken during the recent debate over the immigration bill? As far as I can tell they have not actively assaulted anyone (or at least been charged with it). The explosives charge is spurious, in my opinion, as it amounts to little more than homemade fireworks.
What am I missing?

Jefferson
 
Assistant U.S. Attorney Michael Whisonant said prosecutors would likely present evidence about the group's operations and plans at sentencing, which was not immediately scheduled.

If such evidence wasn't relevant during the adjudication, why is it relevant now?
 
What is intrinsically wrong with being in a militia? According to my reading of the Constitution, Militia Act and the writings of the Founding Fathers all adult males are members of the militia.

Yes; but the militia they were members of wasn't four guys with guns getting together and deciding to play Army. It was a militia that consisted of the entire community, had elected officers who exercised authority, etc.
 
OK but the charge is these four guys are part of a militia. Four citizens is part of the unorganized militia, right?

Jefferson
 
What is intrinsically wrong with being in a militia?

Absolutely nothing. In an instance of foreign invasion, an armed citizenry would likely be more effective than the national Armed Forces, because guerilla tactics force a war of attrition.

Its the people that engage in illegal activities that have made "militia" a taboo word.

Whether criminalizing such activities is constitutional to begin with... thats a whole 'nother subject. But these guys should not have been surprised that they were flirting with time in Club Fed.
 
OK but the charge is these four guys are part of a militia.

No, the charge is making hand grenades. It's VERY hard for me to believe any adult "didn't know it was illegal to make" them. Plus one of them was charged with being a prior felon in possession of firearms. Plus "other weapons charges." (We know one was an illegal homemade silencer but who knows what else they will throw in.)

They drew attention to themselves with their "militia activities" but anybody making and possessing hand grenades shouldn't really be surprised to end up in jail!

Gregg
 
the charge is these four guys are part of a militia

Was there actually any criminal charge of them being a part of a militia, or does the word "charge" in this case mean more along the lines of a claim made in court to make them look like scary bad guys?
 
Assistant U.S. Attorney Michael Whisonant said prosecutors would likely present evidence about the group's operations and plans at sentencing, which was not immediately scheduled.
If such evidence wasn't relevant during the adjudication, why is it relevant now?

Four northeast Alabama men pleaded guilty Tuesday to federal weapons charges

No evidence has been presented yet because they pleaded guilty. The judge will review the evidence before determining a sentence.
 
Strange...some of the stuff we put together as kids would probably be classified as hand grenades these days. A different world, it is today.

Biker
 
jselvy said:
What is intrinsically wrong with being in a militia? According to my reading of the Constitution, Militia Act and the writings of the Founding Fathers all adult males are members of the militia. As far as opposing the government and illegal immigration how is that any different than the actions taken during the recent debate over the immigration bill? As far as I can tell they have not actively assaulted anyone (or at least been charged with it). The explosives charge is spurious, in my opinion, as it amounts to little more than homemade fireworks.
What am I missing?Jefferson

Hand grenades are a "bit" more than "fireworks." Plus they had, or had made, a machine gun. Both are NFA devices -- atleast the machinegun is; I'm pretty sure the grenade is, or even if not it is covered by some other law.
Those two things alone get them visits by the BATguys.
As to whether or not they were planning to attack illegal immigrants ... that was a charge reported by the media. Is it true? I personally don't know, except these guys did plead guilty, so it's not unfair to assume it is true. Their claim that they feared terrorism, a breakdown of society... that sounds like CYA to me. A lot of ordinary people might fear those consequences.
IMHO these guys got their due karma.
 
OK but the charge is these four guys are part of a militia. Four citizens is part of the unorganized militia, right

As others already noted, they weren't charged with being in a militia. They were charged with making explosive devices, apparently to kill illegal immigrants. That would probably explain why the part of the unorganized militia not doing that isn't in court pleading guilty.
 
"You were afraid of terrorists coming to DeKalb County?" the judge asked.
This is SO ironic! The government plays up nonexistent "threats" by unarmed men with no operational training, like the "Miami Seven," the "Fort Dix Six," etc. They set "threat level or'nge" in airports throughout the country and leave it there for two years straight. They consistently beat the drum that terrorists are a serious threat. So serious that we should give up our fourth-amendment rights against search and seizure, our right of habeas corpus, etc. So serious that it's worth spending a trillion dollars or so and losing more lives than 9/11 fighting a war in Iraq. So serious that anyone failing to vote Republican, or even questioning the "Decider Guy," is guilty of high treason.

And when a few rednecks in Alabama say, "We thought terrorism was a serious threat, so we decided to arm ourselves," the same government replies, through one of its appointed judges, by calling them paranoid whackos.

:rolleyes: :barf:
 
IMHO these guys got their due karma.

Who did they hurt! They possesed some items that are constitutionally protected but infringed upon by (as much as I try to distance myself from it)our government.

Yea, I know, they are kooks and make the rest of us look bad.
 
And when a few rednecks in Alabama say, "We thought terrorism was a serious threat, so we decided to arm ourselves," the same government replies, through one of its appointed judges, by calling them paranoid whackos.

I consider myself to be very well armed, and my family is moderately well prepared for most inconveniences this side of full blown nuke-U-lar war (or a terrorist flying a plane into our house :neener:).

I have managed to accomplish this while not running afoul of Pennsylvania or Federal laws. I would guess that most THR members have managed (OK, struggled) to do the same. Maybe we have a bit more mental horsepower than the 'Bama Bubbas? Momma always said, "Stupid is, as stupid does":D
 
I have a deal with a few friends if it goes down we all get together and help each other out.

I guess I am in a militia so this will probably be one of my last post before the man comes to arrest me for being prepared. And I had better cancel my insurance and throw out all my canned foods as well as dumping out all the judges of water I have stashed around the house. I dont want to be prepared or anything.
 
I have managed to accomplish this while not running afoul of Pennsylvania or Federal laws. I would guess that most THR members have managed (OK, struggled) to do the same. Maybe we have a bit more mental horsepower than the 'Bama Bubbas? Momma always said, "Stupid is, as stupid does"
Sure! I live in Pittsburgh, and it's better than pretty much anything North or East of PA. My Saiga 7.62x39 is on its way to an FFL in town as we speak (happy birthday to me!). And I like to think I'm smarter than the average Bubba. Call it a weakness. :D

But supposing all Bubbas are every bit as dumb as the jokes make them, they still have the same rights as the rest of us. The bill of rights doesn't require an IQ test. As long as they don't hurt the neighbors, I don't care if they blow off hand grenades in their basements, or hold lit firecrackers between their teeth. Neither should anyone else, I don't think.

Now hold muh beer and watch this! :evil:

--Len.
 
You mean you can't make bombs? When did that law pass? ;)

Anyway... maybe the four stooges have a point. Why can't we form a militia with the mission in mind to fight terrorists? After all the war on terror requires everyone and the front lines are the streets of America or so sayeth the government.

A common anti argument runs that we don't need militias any more as we are no longer under threat of invasion. The last several terror attacks were stopped by sharp eyed civilians. With proper training there is no reason why a militia would not be a powerful tool in the war on terror.

The more I think about it the more I think this is a good idea that was poorly executed. Why should the government be the only entity to cash in on expanding their power due to the of terrorism?

It really is irrelevant wether you believe it is a threat or not. No one makes you give a reason for joining the military.
 
Hmmm. What do we have here?

We see a felon in possession. What was his felony(ies)? If it's something that shouldn't be a felony, then on that matter, there's nothing that I, sitting on a jury, would convict.

We see some illegal weapons, but once again, should they be illegal? And these grenades; were they worth a darn?

We see an assertion from the prosecution, that they were part of something organized, but is it valid? Is the organization actually evil? As others have said, who've they hurt?

And we see a "conspiracy." To do what? Have they actually done anything? Do you realize that if you say "I'm gonna kill him!" just in anger, without any intent to actually do it, to some friend of yours, and he says "me too," that it could be construed as a conspiracy to commit murder, should some prosecutor get a hair up his butt about you, and have ANY proof that you could, in fact, do it? Ah, conspiracy: the "prosecutor's darling," as it's known.

And we see guilty pleas, but that probably doesn't mean diddly, since these guys almost certainly had a public defender(s). Public defenders don't usually get excited about a defense. They usually imply that they are too incompetent (or controlled, beholden to the D.A.'s office) to get you a better deal than just pleading guilty. So please, let's not use their plea as a proof of anything.

I don't know if these guys did anything wrong, or were too dangerous not to lock up. I don't have enough info. I just hope justice is being done, unlike in the Webb/Carrion case.
 
pacodelahoya said:
Who did they hurt! They possesed some items that are constitutionally protected but infringed upon by (as much as I try to distance myself from it)our government.

Who did they hurt? Who were they planning to hurt? Illegal immigrants. I don't like illegals either, and I am really ticked that our govt. is doing nothing about the borders. I won't even start on this last immigration bill:banghead::banghead::banghead: . But that doesn't mean it's a good idea to attack illegals with machineguns and grenades. First -- you don't truly know if they really are illegals; many Mexicans are here legally, and, moreover, is it ever moral or legal just to murder human beings just because you think they're in the wrong place?

I agree that the laws regarding machineguns are an infringement. Huh? What's that??!!!??!! Surprise!!!!!!!!!
Well yeah, but the place to debate it -- and to rectify the law -- isn't in a courtroom AFTER you've been charged with a potentially nasty crime, it's before you do that; WRITE YOUR KONGRESSKRITTERS. START A MOVEMENT -- GET LIKE-MINDED FRIENDS TO JOIN AND WRITE AND PUT PRESSURE ON BIG BROTHER!!!!
And then some people will regard you as a kook. But atleast you'll be a legal kook and not a tin-foil wearing nutsy militia Rambo-wannabe looney-tune.
 
KLDimond said:
Do you realize that if you say "I'm gonna kill him!" just in anger, without any intent to actually do it, to some friend of yours, and he says "me too," that it could be construed as a conspiracy to commit murder, should some prosecutor get a hair up his butt about you, and have ANY proof that you could, in fact, do it?

Conspiracy normally requires not only planning, but atleast 1 or 2 active steps toward accomplishing the goal. If all you do is tell a friend you're going to murder someone and he says "me too," that isn't a conspiracy. You'd actually have to take a step toward commiting it, like procuring a gun. You might at worst get a "threatening" charge for what you said. Certainly a LEO would ask you questions if such a conversation were reported.

I don't believe the Alabama Free Militia guys were charged with any conspiracy charges. They might have been if they'd actually started to do something in the furtherance of their plan, but the NFA charges were good enough. In my estimation LEOs won't let a plan that dangerous get started if they can charge them with something at the onset and get them canned. If they let them go, and they managed to actually pull off the attack ... imagine the public outcry then.
 
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