.223s, Twist Rates & Bullet Weight

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BerettaNut92

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OK, I don't get it. What's with the different .223 bullet weights, what are they designed for and what do different twist rates do??

I've heard people saying "I want to shoot the new so and so grain rounds from my AR15, so I want a so and so twist rate."

:confused:
 
Conservative rule of thumb:

1/7 55gr. to 77gr. (maybe up to 100gr.)
1/8 50gr. to 75gr.
1/9 40gr. to 68gr. (some 1/9 barrels stabilize even 75gr.)

Lots of answers here:
www.ammo-oracle.com
 
You are dealing with several factors here. There is no 'optimum' twist rate for any bullet weight. Each bullet has certain charactaristics of which weight is less of a characteristic than shape. A long tracer bullet requires a tighter twist rate for instance. Here goes...

Stability: To stabilize a bullet, very little twist is actually needed. That means, to keep the pointy end going forward. This has very little to do with any factor other than rotating the bullet. Virtually any rifled barrel will stabilize any .22 caliber bullet out of a .223 cartridge. Instability is often seen in pistol reloads and .22lr target loads as keyholing on target. You probably ain't gonna get that with a .223 round with the twist rates shown below.

Accuracy: The factors involved here are bullet weight, length, and shape as well as atmospheric factors such as temperature, altitude, and humidity. Generally speaking, the further you get from the most accurate twist rate, the more unstable a bullet will be and the less accurate it will be. This applies to either tighter or looser twist. Bullet weight is the biggest factor assuming we aren't using steel cored or tracer ammunition which are larger than their equally heavy lead counterparts.

Lethality: In general, you want the least amount of twist that will still give you acceptable accuracy. The slower the bullet rotates, the more likely it will want to fly 'fat end to the front' in tissue (of, say, a deer sized game animal). To fly that way, it will want to spin around and even fragment. You can't do this if you are spinning very fast. So, in general the slower you rotate the bullet, the more likely it will tumble in the [deer] and cause greater tissue damage. Of course, this is a tradeoff with accuracy as you still want to be able to hit the [deer] to realize the increase in effectiveness.

Penetration: This is inversely proportional to lethality when speaking of full metal jacket bullets. To penetrate deep and consistantly, you need a bullet that spins very fast and is stable even in tissue and other media. Tests showed that the modern 1-in-7" twist rate of the M16A2 causes the SS109 bullet to act like a 'drill' and create a nice, straight, tiny hole. If you ain't shooting [deer] through walls or sandbags, you don't need quite so much spin.

Okay, the numbers... there really aren't any hard and fast numbers. It all depends on your barrel length, velocity, barrel construction, what shape bullet you have, jacket thickness, etc. I can give you generalized numbers though of the best in terms of accuracy but understand that you have to increase the twist rate for penetration and decrease it for lethality. I'm pulling these out of my head as I can't find my books. I'll list the acceptable accuracy range for each load IMO. Bullets at either end of this range are likely to show poor accuracy. Remember, these are for homogenous lead bullets of boat tailed and hollow-point configurations. Steel tipped ammo needs more twist to stabilize.

1-in-7" Twist: 55gr and up. They don't, and shouldn't make a twist rate that's faster than this. Optimum weight is 69gr
1-in-8" Twist: 55gr and up. Mostly used on match grade barrels and optimum weight is about the same.
1-in-9" Twist: 52gr and up. You won't really notice a drastic loss in accuracy even at the top end of bullet weight but this is really a 62gr twist rate.
1-in-10" Twist: 50gr to 69gr. This really isn't useful unless you are shooting a mix of 55gr and 62gr bullets and don't plan on shooting anything else.
1-in-12" Twist: 40gr to 62gr. This is optimum for 55gr bullets but is really not that versatile with the heavier bullets. Use this if you are planning on using ligher loads or don't expect to ever shoot the really heavy bullets.
1-in-14" Twist: up to 55gr. This is strictly for varmits. Don't plan on taking on any [deer] hiding behind sandbags with this twist rate.

Remember, attack the opinion, not the poster. Hope this helps.
 
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I was shooting some cheap SS109 ammo called Hot Shots. Made in Bosnia I think. 62 grain bullets. I was trying out different ammo in my new CZ-527 which has a 1:9 twist rate. I noticed that at 50 yards this ammo ripped vertical holes in the paper. Keyholing. Does some ammo stabilize further out? What I mean, is it unstable at say 50 yards, but then "levels out" at 75 or 100 yards? The 55 grain PMC was punching round holes at 50 yards.
 
Rifle ammo doesn't keyhole while it's 'stabilizing' rather it wobbles a bit. That bit should be impreceptable. 1-in-9 should stabilize SS109, but not all 62gr bullets are SS109. Are you entirely sure your CZ 527 has 1-in-9 twist?
 
I am using a 1 in 12 twist .223 Ruger Bolt action and it will handle the Winchester 64 gr "Deer Loads" It gets about 1 and a half inch groups at 100 yds with the flat base spitzer 64 gr. It only does a little better with lighter bullet weights. I haven't tried any other heavy weights.
Good Luck
 
Different twists are necessary for different bullets depending on their LENGTH not weight. In other words a 55gr round nose needs less twist than a 55gr spitzer. All bullets start out from the barrel wobbling then gradually stabilize even with appropriate twist. That my take some time and distance, for example in cartridges like the 6.5x55 or 7x57 with the heaviest bullets you might get groups of 1" at 100yds and 1 1/2" at 200 yds.
 
Could someone please explain how a bullet that is unstable when it comes out of the muzzle, eventually stablizes itself further down range? Is it the feathers or maybe the tail fins that do this? This isn't ment to offend anyone but come on, think about it. It just isn't possible.
This business of not being stable at 100 yards (or some other distance) and then getting better is gun shop BS. There's no scientific basis for it that I have heard or read from any credible source.
 
I am familiar with the main theories behind twist ... no probs there, but noticed someone mention about having tumblers.

I have an intriguing situation ....... Mini-14, 185-xxxxxx series ..... if I put the Russian ammo thru (pic below .. damned if i am sure what make to call it!) ...... I get tumblers at 50 yds ... maybe 3 in 20 rounds shot. Twist is 1:7.

If however I use homeloads or something like American Eagle .. it's fine .... groups tighten right up too.

The Russian ammo looks well produced ... and feeds fine but I wonder if any quirk of bullet can affect things. Notice it is 55 grn ... same as I use in factory and homeloads .... but could it have ultra thin jacket?? maybe it is a thou or so undersize for my bore (haven't checked ... yet). Anyone any thoughts?

223_box.jpg
 
Russian ammo in general is CRAP. It's fine for plinking out of cheap AK and SKS style guns but when you expect accuracy, don't shoot Russian ammo. My 1-in-9 twist RRA upper shoots to about 6" at 50 yards with Wolf but cuts cute little mickey-mouse holes at the same distance with my handloads. It's the ammo.
 
Could someone please explain how a bullet that is unstable when it comes out of the muzzle, eventually stablizes itself further down range?
As I said before, it's impreceptible but it does happen. It happens because when the bullet leaves the barrel, it is going from having tremendous torque and pressure applied through mechanical means by the rifling to having nothing but aerodynamic and kinetic energy applied through air resistance and the gyroscopic action of the bullet spinning. On match grade bullets which are highly consistant, you won't notice much. On military and plinking grade bullets this leap from two different stabilizing factors does take a little 'wobble' time to overcome. We aren't talking any difference in groups. You're absolutely right, it's a myth that bullets are going to be more accurate at long range because of some 'stabilization factor.'

I'll attempt to explain how a rifle can group 2" at 100 yards and 3.5" at 200 yards though. In reality, there is no difference in the groups it's just that they are fired at targets which have differing levels of accuracy potential. How do I explain... If you aim for a black blob at 100 yards, you aren't going to have the ability do discern .25 MOA differences in the sight/scope picture as well as if the the target were at 200 yards. It's a similar effect as sight radius. With a 30" Sight radius, the slightest movement is noticeably more obvious than with a 10" sight radius. Get it?
 
Thank you B.A.
I cannot count the number of times I have heard the legend of bullets "going to sleep" and shooting more accurately - always in MOA, sometimes in group size - at greater ranges. It is quite current in BPCR, which I have just started on this year.
The only serious account I have seen gave the diameter of the air spiral generated by the interaction of rifling spin, air resistance, and bullet imperfection as something like 1/10 inch in .30 cal. So if a .10 inch wobble settles down over the second hundred yards of travel, how easy is that to spot on the targets?
 
Twist rate has no measureable bearing on lethality. The idea that a bullet can be more or less lethal in tissue based upon twist rate is a fable. There is no barrel made that has a fast enough twist rate to stabilize a bullet in animal tissue. And if you did the twist rate would be on the order of mutiple turns per inch. All bullets are highly unstable in tissue. What determines lethality is how quickly the bullet yaws, which is a function of bullet design not spin rate. You won't find any measureable yaw difference between M193 fired from a 1-in-12" barrel and a 1-in-7" barrel. The 1-in-7" twist doesn't even come close to stabilizing the bullet in tissue. This fable was started because the faster twist barrels were needed to stabilize the M855 ammo in AIR. The M855 ammo is less lethal than M193 out of any twist rate barrel because of its construction and lower terminal velocity, not because it is "too stable".
 
Dave T , it isn't BS, the bullets really do start out wobbling the n settle down. It's all a matter of physics. I used to have an explaination of it , I believe from Norma, but haven't been able to find it. It is significant and it has been measured. If I remember correctly it happens because you are pushing the bullet instead of pulling it. I'll keep looking for the info and if I find it I'll post it .
 
We use 1:8 and 1:7 twists for 77 and 80 grain bullets in competition, and the 1:6.5 is a new one for 90 grain match bullets. AWESOME bullets for 1000 yard shooting. Barrels are avaiable from Keriger, Pac-Nor, Shilen (maybe) and Obermeyer I think. My next barrel will be a 1:6.5.
 
METE:

I love the site, thanks for the link. It didn't, however, give any quantitative results that I saw regarding bullet wobble. I think that .10" is a very reasonable number and that AIN'T gonna matter much unless you are a benchrest shooter shooting at 50 or 100 yards. What range do they shoot at?
 
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