Why doesn't anybody make a real 1911-A1?

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Bingo!

If two parts are on the high end of TOLERANCE, they may not have the required CLEARANCE. Being a machinist, this is something I "get" and why I bought parts made to spec. and sent them and a Springfield to a gunsmith to have them fit correctly.

And the comment made about craftsmanship? That's exactly why I'm running old, dirty, greasy manual machines and making more per hour than the man ten feet away pushing a button on a shiny new CNC machine. He makes parts within tolerance, I make parts to a blueprint.
 
There are several fine 1911s on the market, all made by Colt. I recommend the Colt series 70 reissue. The WWI reproduction is also excellent if you can locate one remaining. They only made 4,000 world-wide.

I did a 3,000-round torture of my Series 70 reissue and of my Glock 17. Neither pistol ever failed in any form in their respective 3,000-round tests. The problem that you had with your Kimber is just that, a Kimber. Interestingly, my Colt Series 70 reissue is as-loose-as a baby rattle and extremely accurate.

By the way, here is a recent poll in which the participants agreed 82 to 30 with purchasing modern-day Colts: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=282893&highlight=Torture+Test

Doc2005
 
Ah yes.... The Old Fuff at least does know the difference. :cool:

Over the years certain dimensions in the 1911 design were tweaked to insure that components (including frames, slides, barrels, and all other parts) that were made by various contractors would interchange into guns made by others. The goal was total interchangeability. At the same time adjustments were made to what I call calculated clearances to insure that the pistol would function regardless of the environmental circumstances. Contrary to what some believe, these clearances were not limited to making space for mud, sand and other kinds of fouling – but also to give the system a little leeway during the extraction/ejection and feeding cycle. These to a considerable degree account for the reason that the older guns are more reliable then the newest ones, where manufacturers – including Colt – have tightened the clearances to make the pistol (at least in theory if not practice) more accurate. This said, clearances are only part of a larger picture when it comes to the way these pistols are dimensioned today.

But since no manufactured dimension is absolute from part to part, tolerances are included (so much plus, so much minus) to insure the part will be made within a reasonable range on each dimension. Here I often find that currently manufactured parts often don’t meet the requirements shown in the government’s blueprints. In some cases this is deliberate, in others it shows sloppy workmanship and/or a lack of inspection.

During the late 1950’s and 1960’s Government engineers working first at the U.S. Army’s Springfield Armory and later Rock Island Arsenal, developed a system to mass produce match grade 1911A1 pistols for use in certain government sponsored bullseye target matches. While these pistols were substantially more accurate then an average service pistol, they were not intended to be services pistols. However the procedures, parts, dimensions, and tolerances used in the match weapons program are largely used today by makes of current 1911 style pistols. This practice works well with the big-boy toy concept, but not so well for those that want a true USGI weapon or the commercial equivalent once made by Colt.

Incidentally, for those who might be interested, match-grade pistols often require a breaking in period before they become reasonably reliable for a non-weapons purpose (punching paper or addressing steel targets), while 1911 service pistols (weapons) never did. It’s all in their respective clearances and tolerances.
 
Okay fellas...here's my dilemma...I am stuck between several pistols as to which to purchase next. I will buy it first and foremost just to have...nothing else matters...it's a Colt. I will use it for CCW, usually in a briefcase or vehicle so size is a mute point. Besides, I really do like the full-size 1911s. I want to buy a .45 ACP in either a:

1st choice) Colt Special Combat Gov't, hard-chromed (Takes 3 to 6 months to get)
2nd choice) Colt Series 70 reissue, blued (I already have the stainless) 3rd choice)
Colt Gold Cup Trophy, blued
4th choice) Colt Commander, all stainless
5th choice) Colt Defender
6th choice) Colt WWI reissue (I already have one, maybe would like an additional)

Do you all agree with the order, or would you change the order of preference? if so, why?
 
Firing pin safety deactivated by the grip safety. Came out in the 1930s so there's nothing all that newfangled about it
The plunger bar in the frame that engages the plunger in the slide that blocks the firing pins travel is not engaged by the grip safety, but by the trigger.
 
I have owned 5 1911s, not an expert but my first one was a Llama bought new from a drug store (wow, been a LONG time since you could buy guns in drug stores) and it was an OK "mil-spec" 1911 but it had breakage issues. Small parts just snapped in half while shooting. Sold it to smith who was going to rebuild it.

My second was a 1980s Thompson 10mm. again, all "mil-spec" was VERY reliable but not too accurate. The only issue it had was the slide lock would occasionally lock the slide back on a half-full mag. Sadly, I traded it in on a Kimber Target II.

One of the biggest mistakes of my gun-buying days. The Kimber was less reliable than a 1970 Pinto w/ 300,000 miles. It was pretty, but after three trips back to Kimber it still wouldn't run. The dealer gave me my money back so I got the Dan Wesson Pointman.

Wow, nice gun, it worked, it was accurate, it looked good, money well spent in my book. Daughter got really sick so it was sold for med bills.

Then recently I found this new dream of a 1911, my Sistema (Buenos Aires Police version). I paid three bills for the gun, a cheap hard case and two Novak mags. I brought it home, detailed stripped it, cleaned it, then reassembled, lubing to the specs in my Armorer's Guide. I ran 300 rounds on the first range trip. Not one stoppage, not one hiccup and when I took the time to try, I was hitting paper plates at 25 yards every time.

It came to me just as you see it here, after market parts and all. The only thing I did was cold-blue the frame becuse it was bare steel and I wanted some kind of covering on it. Crappy looking but temporary and easily removed. It does rattle like my old Chevy pickup, but to me it is comforting.

I havn't figured out what to do with it yet though. The gun is only a plinker for me. Nothing serious at all. I CCW a P3AT and I have my Security-Six for woods carry and my G19 for "combat" duty.

I either want to finish the custom job where I will have it polished up and re-blued with SS small parts and fancy grips. Think BBQ gun. I have also thought about hitting Mr. Fuff here up for what ever he has in original Colt parts and bring it back into spec then have it Gun-Koted or parked. I just can't make up my mind.

The moral of my story I guess is that the "new fangled custom" guns are OK, but for reliabilty and function, the original Colt designs are hard to beat.
 

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The plunger bar in the frame that engages the plunger in the slide that blocks the firing pins travel is not engaged by the grip safety, but by the trigger.
The Colt Series 80 FPS works off the trigger. The old Swartz FPS system from 1937, and the new S&W FPS system on the SW1911 works off the grip safety. Kimber uses the Swartz FPS design.

ID shooting, your Llama, Thompson and Kimber were not as "mil-spec" as you thought they were. Nor was your Pointman. Your Sistema, however was milspec with the original parts, at least while it had a genuine GI magazine with a dimple in the follower. Likewise, my carry gun, a Sistema, was once "mil-spec" but it ain't any more.

Doc, for a CCW gun, I would get a stainless Commander, with the Series 70 Government as a second choice.
 
Series 70.

Given that it will be carried in a briefcase or vehicle, I'd opt for the full size 70. The Gov't Special has bells and whistles that can be fitted by a real 'smith instead of installed by an asembler. The Defender is too short to rely on (Yeah, I know, your uncles friends dads' co-worker had a good one) and the others don't rate highly on his wish list.

Series 80 safety is actuated by the trigger, Schwartz is actuated by the grip safety. Two different animals.

The only "Mil-Spec" handgun mentioned in post 56 was the Systema. See a trend?
 
If two parts are on the high end of TOLERANCE, they may not have the required CLEARANCE.

Then they weren't figured right. That is the purpose of tolerance, it is the difference from the designed dimension that can be tolerated. Two mating parts at the maximum + tolerance should work with the minimum but still functional clearance.
 
Yes, when it's done right.

Jim, you're right, if it's done right and everyone is on the same page. Unfortunately, there are exactly two metric butt-tons of people making Gov't Model-ish handguns and twice that many suppliers of small parts. Those bits of "a little here and a little there" add up to something entirely out of spec. Compound that with untrained "machinists" using go-no-go guages instead of actually measuring dimensions, lack of hand fitting, and attention being paid to the wrong areas of pistol fit add up to all the parts being "in tolerance" but the clearances being wrong for propper feeding and cycling.
 
Agreed, 1911guy, the present crop of 1911 knockoffs is not being built to US Government specifications. If parts in tolerance don't fit with clearance in the specified range, then the blueprints are wastepaper.

I recall an article in the American Rifleman when Springfield Armory Inc came out with a Garand copy. They concluded that it was a functional representation of the service rifle "but it would not have passed US Army inspection because it had a quarter inch knot in the wood of the handguard." Now THERE'S a REAL mil-spec.
 
interesting thread... :)

does anyone know if Rock Island has a website? I google it, but can't find an actual company site...
 
Anyone know of a surplus supplier that has the Sistema Colts in stock - can't find any way of contact JLD, so I'm assuming they are out.
 
Driving me nuts

Some of you guys drive me nuts with your "They just don't makem like they used to guff". Please!!! I'm 34 and not old by any count , but I've owned a few 1911's. The count now is 16 1911's in 13 years and I would like to say that I have never, I repeat never had all the problems some of the so called 1911 owners at the highroad claim to have experienced and I don't think I'm lucker than most. The only time I've had trouble with one of those new fangled 1911's was when I overtaxed my gunsmithing knowledge and tried to do somthing I wasn't capable of doing. Take proper care of your firearm and it will in most cases take care of you. Was the original the best? Maybe! Was it as accurate? Not on it's best day. Some of you guys talk as if a bad one was never produced in the good old days. Well they did. By golly gee even a few broke. Do I think mim and cast parts are as good as steel parts? Not a chance but IF they break and they are replaced they can be replaced with quality steel parts and my tight tolerence 1911 will still be more accurate and just as likely as reliable. Do I think the original was the best? Sure what the hell. Then again the one's I own now have been pretty darn good. Nice to look at with quality performance and reliability. Would I mind owning an original. I always like to add one more to the group but would I trade one of my new fangled 1911's to get it. Not a chance! Unlike some guys around here my 1911's actually work. What a surprise!
 
Tyro,
Lipseys brought in what is believed to be the last of the sistemas last year. Click here to read about them. Kay Clark Miculek may still have two Sistemas for sale in Bossier La. They were still there a month or so ago.

Ajax, the original poster asked about 1911A1s like his grandpa had. Thus, he got answers regarding M1911A1s. I have a slew of 1911s too. They are all reliable. I only carry one at a time though. Like others here, I just tried to answer the fellows question, not sell him on a pistol he expressed a distain for.
 
My comment was to the guys who speak as if the only good 1911 was made in the 30's and that new 1911's just never work. As to the original poster Colt's WW1 1911 is as much like JMB's original design as your likely to find. If I was you I would save few more dollars and go that route. Also I apolagize for hijacking your thread.
 
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