PA halting sales of ALL firearms on Labor Day for 5 days..

6 days for an upgrade is bull

I work as a Systems Administrator for a large company and my clients would laugh my out of their plants if I told them an upgrade would take 6 days.:banghead: There is nothing that I can think that they could be doing that would take a 6 day shut down of that system. A total replacement of the system shouldn't take more than 12 hours cut over time. If a complete rebuild / replacement is being done then that should happen on the side and moved into place once the new system is completed and tested. I have to wonder if PA is trying to test the limits of what they can get away with.

I don't think you could sue because you could technically buy the gun (therefore not interfering in commerce) you just can't take it home.

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You probably couldn't buy a gun because you have to pass the background check to purchase a firearm and they wouldn't want to sell a firearm to a criminal and then have them fail the test.......and go through that trouble. Right or no?

This is why lawsuits against the BATF are so very important. For example, Wyoming is suing the ATF because the ATF does not want to accept Wyoming's CCW as proof that a citizen has passed a background check. ATF's reason: Wyoming allows for certain misdemeanors to be expunged so that said citizen can excercize the right to keep and bear arms. The ATF is basically saying that if Wyoming does not change the state law (something which is clearly in the state's domain and not the ATF's) then the ATF will force CCW holders to go through a background check for every gun purchase.

Think of this case in light of Pennsylvania's background check being "shut down for maintainence" for five days. Clearly, the ATF wants the authoritah to approve or deny every single gun purchase at any time, regardless of the law-abiding status of the purchaser.

This is a power grab. Pure and simple.

"last time I checked, the NRA supports background checks so I doubt they'd actually do anything about this at all."

So if the NRA works to get the state to do background checks during the system changeover they're supporting background checks, right? You're statement isn't logical.

John

bartkowski

The way it usually works here is that, at least in larger chain stores, you are charged for the background check then if you pass, you are charged for the firearm. Dunham's has done this to me on more than one occasion. It saves them a void should you fail.

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Others are talking about the NRA supporting background checks, why would this particular situation make them hypocrites if they fought against the outage?

They would simply be fighting to keep the system up and running.

I do not think a 5 day shutdown, over a long holiday weekend, to upgrade the background check system is anything to be concerned about assuming this only happens once every 5 or 10 years.

Ideally, the government would announce this 30 days in advance to allow people that want to possess a firearm during that blackout period ample time to make arrangements.

Was any advance notice given?

The PR machine for the PA department handling this shutdown does not appear very sensitive to the concerns voiced in this thread. If they had mentioned the 2nd amendment positively, and provided a little more information about the reason 5 days was needed, what exactly will be upgraded, etc., and emphatically advised that under no circumstances would the black out period extend beyond the 5 days, they could have given 2nd activists some reassurance.

Does PA require all firearms transfers, including private party transfers, to go through an FFL and a state background check/waiting period?

If not, then the concerns seem overblown to me.

M

So if the NRA works to get the state to do background checks during the system changeover they're supporting background checks, right? You're statement isn't logical.

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You cannot have it both ways, and the issue of whether or not the background checks are a good idea is actually immaterial here.

Supporting "instant" background checks means you have to support the state's right to implement the process and force it on the buyer. That means if you support this idea, you accept that we are at the mercy of the background check system's foibles, such as a need for a software upgrade. You bow your right to buy a gun whenever you want to in order to satisfy the state's need for convenience. It's been pointed out that the "parallel system" idea is not convenient.

Now some people may argue that's a good tradeoff and some say it's not, but that's not the issue here.

See, if you publically support the idea of the "instant" background check and then come forward and say "We oppose your implementation of this new system because it infringes on our rights" you are a hypocrite. You can't support the idea of a background check only when it's convenient for you and you pass it instantly anyway, and then get upset about it when that system is (inevitably) used against you.

If you truly support the idea of background checks for gun purchases, the best objection you could make is that this event is ill timed and should be rescheduled. To support the state's ability to force this process on us and then make any effort to weasel out of it the second it's inconvenient is hypocrisy. As the only non hypocritical suggestion is to suggest the 5 day window be moved to another time, that would be an outright endorsement of the idea the government has the right to deny us the right to buy arms whenever it wants.

Of course someone who believes in background checks ultimately believes that anyway, but I highly doubt the NRA is willing to make such a statement yet or at least admit that's how they feel. So the only thing we might see from them is a polite request to please move the date. If they take any concrete steps, they'd be admitting that background checks are an infringement on our rights.

Don't get me wrong, I dearly wish they would use this incident as a catalyst to change their platform and really play this up as a good reason to change their stance to rejecting background checks.

Haven't had time to read all posts, but an injunction

requiring a delay to get past Labor Day without interuption should not be difficult to obtain.

N-i-c-s = I-n-f-r-i-n-g-e-m-e-n-t

I work as a Systems Administrator for a large company and my clients would laugh my out of their plants if I told them an upgrade would take 6 days. There is nothing that I can think that they could be doing that would take a 6 day shut down of that system. A total replacement of the system shouldn't take more than 12 hours cut over time. If a complete rebuild / replacement is being done then that should happen on the side and moved into place once the new system is completed and tested. I have to wonder if PA is trying to test the limits of what they can get away with.

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I would tend to agree that no private sector business would accept such a situation but these are government employees and the normal rules just do not apply. Think about how friendly and efficient the DMV is in your area. Any private business run like that would go under pretty quick.

"Supporting "instant" background checks means you have to support the state's right to implement the process and force it on the buyer."

Let's go back to your original statement that the NRA's response to the state's proposed temporary shutdown are contradicting its' support of background checks. Let's ignore your lengthy attempt to explain it because, frankly, it doesn't help your position.

If the NRA supports background checks then there is nothing contradictory about them working to make the state DO the background checks in a timely manner. What the state is proposing isn't a viable solution to a technical problem. A viable solution is building the new system and then shutting the old one down when they turn the new one on. That's what any business would do.

John

Hmmm... Something stinks around here. Anybody wants to bet the same Philadelphian politicians behind the Pa/Fl reproprocity thing a few months ago are behind this.

Regarding redundant background checks

I know somebody mentioned it before but something needs to be done for CCW holders to be able to skip this expense every time. At least run my permit number against something so that I don't have to fill out the stupid paperwork.

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In Indiana all you have to do is show a valid CCW permit to purchase a firearm from a dealer or you can pay the background fee for for every purchase. Eitherway you have to fill out a Federal Gun Registration Form 4473.

very sad. it screws the gun dealers over much worse than gun owners. this is kind of like Florists being told that they can't sell flowers over the valentine's day.

If not, then the concerns seem overblown to me.

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Apparently you aren't in a business that relies on sales. :banghead:

There has been a little progress on this issue.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_523820.html

Rendell sets sights on delay of gun freeze
By The Associated Press
Friday, August 24, 2007

To avoid interrupting firearms sales at the start of a hunting season, Gov. Ed Rendell said Thursday he will consider alternatives to Labor Day weekend for upgrading the state's computerized criminal background check system.

Rendell acknowledged administration officials "probably made a mistake" by not touching base with sportsmen's groups before scheduling the work for Sept. 2-6, which would require halting gun sales during the first days of the dove and Canada geese hunting seasons.

The timing of the gun-sale freeze has drawn criticism from sportsmen's groups, gun dealers and some legislators.

The governor said he is appointing an informal panel, including sportsmen, police and legislators, that will meet with state police officials and decide by early next week whether the computer work can be done later this fall. If so, Rendell said he will reschedule the repairs; if not, he said the schedule will stand.

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Rendell stressed that the same system is used to investigate the backgrounds of teachers and other people entrusted with the care of children.

State police had hoped to upgrade the computer system during the summer, but that was impossible because of an "avalanche" of background checks for prospective teachers, coaches and child-care workers that had to be completed before the school year begins, Rendell said.

"This is the criminal history information system that checks out whether people who want to teach our children are sexual predators or whether a child-care worker has a mental health background," he told a Capitol news conference.

"The system does a whole lot more than just check whether someone is eligible to buy a gun," he said. "There is no good time to put this system down."

State police picked Labor Day weekend based on research that showed September gun sales are slowest during the first week of the month, officials said.

Rendell also dismissed as "silliness" a charge by the state Senate's top Republican that the timing of the computer work was an attempt by "liberals from Philadelphia" to limit gun owners' rights.

"A bunch of hogwash," said Rendell, a former Philadelphia mayor who, as governor, has unsuccessfully advocated limiting handgun purchases in Pennsylvania to one per month.

Senate President Pro Tempore Joe Scarnati, R-Jefferson, said he stood by his comment, suggesting that the gun-sale freeze "wasn't done by conservatives from central Pennsylvania."

"I'm glad that the governor saw the wisdom (of) taking another look at this," he said.

Rendell said the panel will include one appointee from each of the four legislative caucuses and representatives of the Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs, the Pennsylvania Chiefs of Police Association and his own sportsmen's advisory panel.

Copyright 2007 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Rendell acknowledged administration officials "probably made a mistake" by not touching base with sportsmen's groups before scheduling the work for Sept. 2-6, which would require halting gun sales during the first days of the dove and Canada geese hunting seasons.

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For the last time, it's not about hunting...

"The system does a whole lot more than just check whether someone is eligible to buy a gun," he said. "There is no good time to put this system down."

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As stated by our resident geeks - it doesn't need to be down for 5 days.

Fletcher

What you are missing is this guy's past record.

He is the ex-mayor of Philadelphia and since becoming governor has stayed with the Philly only mentality. He continually tries to raise taxes or tax something new to pay for the city he put into bankruptcy. How somebody can vote for someone with his track record is beyond me.

He was willing to let the Penguins leave Pittsburgh all because he didn't want a new arena built. Every other team in the state has received one within the past 10 years. Lemieux was told to wait. The team had a group that was going to build them an arena for free as long as they received a casino license from the state. Ed and the gaming board made sure that this didn't happen and the license went to the most illogical part of the city.

The guy really needs to be defeated in the next election. Maybe Tom Ridge could come back somehow.

I do not think a 5 day shutdown, over a long holiday weekend, to upgrade the background check system is anything to be concerned about assuming this only happens once every 5 or 10 years.

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Maybe we should suspend free speech for 5 days every 5 years. Or maybe we should allow unreasonable search and seizure every 5 years. OH WAIT! I KNOW! Women and minorities shouldn't be allowed to vote every five years! I mean really, it's just once every 5 years. No biggie.

Ideally, the government would announce this 30 days in advance to allow people that want to possess a firearm during that blackout period ample time to make arrangements.

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Obviously you've never run a business. Do you have any idea how much time and planning goes into advertising and promotion?

And what about the woman who was raped and threatened by her ex-boyfriend the day before this "system upgrade" occurred? Yeah, make her wait.

Does PA require all firearms transfers, including private party transfers, to go through an FFL and a state background check/waiting period?

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What does that have to do with it? The vast majority of commerce occurs between a private citizen and a merchant. Maybe you have dozens of friends with hundreds of firearms they are looking to sell, but I don't have that luxury and neither do the thousands of Pennsylvania gun owners.


Tell Sarah Brady I said hi.

I'm a network admin during my "day job", and if I told the Big Boss that the e-mail server was going to be down for 5 days......

Well, lets just say that by the end of day 2 I better be sending out resumes.

Wouldn't be too funny if the "new" system took longer to process than the old.

"Thank you for calling the PA-NICS. Your background check results will be mailed within 10 days. Thank you for using the new PANICS, an offshoot of CADOJ!"

Justin

PSP using shady words

If any of you have read the letter the PSP sent out it says that no "approval numbers" will be issued. They also hint at no sales. The problem is they don't mentioned the PA law below. They can't suspend sales, and they are using a play on words.

§6111.1. Pennsylvania State Police
(2) In the event of electronic failure, scheduled computer downtime or similar event beyond the control of the Pennsyl*vania State Police, the Pennsylvania State Police shall immedi*ately notify the requesting licensee of the reason for and estimated length of the delay. If the failure or event lasts for a period exceeding 48 hours, the dealer shall not be subject to any penalty for completing a transaction absent the completion of an instantaneous records check for the remainder of the failure or similar event, but the dealer shall obtain a completed applica*tion/record of sale following the provisions of section 6111(b)(1) and (1.1) (relating to sale or transfer of firearms) as if an instan*taneous records check has not been established for any sale or transfer of a firearm for the purpose of a subsequent background check. (Chgd. by L.1997, Act 5(1), eff. 6/21/97.)

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I've posted this on a couple forums.

According to Pa law gunshops can sell guns with no background check as I mentioned on the previous page, consistent with federal law.

48 hours and take the gun home.

Cabelas should take out an ad mentioning that, special no background check sale courtesy of Governor Rendel, Buy your gun on the 2nd take it home on the 4th, buy it on the 3rd take it home on the 5th. ETC.

Rendel would blow an aneurysm.

Normal system replacement would be done in a day or less, where I work we have a 1900 table oracle database with a complex Gupta front end.
It has never taken more than 24 hours to install a completely new version, and its never done durring operating hours.

Does Pa have 1000 squirrels on wheels running their system? Even so it should not take 5 days, even if they only have one backup server.

5 days? Who is doing the system upgrade? Homer Simpson?

Whether or not NICS is good/bad/indifferent is not pertinent to this thread.

Stay focussed on the subject, which is the shutdown/restart of the Pennsy computers, the politics and effects thereof.

It would be interesting to see if there is any publicizing of the law as cited in Post #47, above.

Art