What is a scout rifle

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It also helps with snap shooting, target acquisition, moving shots,

That was my point. These are its true merits.

Stripper clips are a silly notion when detachable magazines work well, and bolt actions work perfectly well with scopes mounted over the receivers, or at least if they don't, there are millions of people who have never noticed in decades of shooting and hunting with them.
 
My M1A (pictured below) is called an "M1A Scout Squad". The Scope I have mounted on it is made by Leupold and they call it a "Scout Scope". Doesn't really answer your question but I think others before me have already accomplished that much, I'll just toss this in for good measure:D

M1AScoutSquad.gif
 
Armed Bear, yes, rifles do work with the optics mounted over the action (as the "millions" so use them), but the arrangement is less than optimal for weapon manipulation and shooting. This is why I believe that the SS market is very small as it's natural market is a subset of experienced and educated (say over 150 hours [at least several classes] in rifle as a completely arbitrary standard) shooters who are looking for an optimal weapon that lends itself to their training.

The Scout rifles is the weapon of the elite few, not the millions. Jeff Cooper knew this, but I know he hoped that it would catch on, but we all know human nature, being what it is, will not permit that.:)
 
The Scout rifles is the weapon of the elite few, not the millions. Jeff Cooper knew this, but I know he hoped that it would catch on, but we all know human nature, being what it is, will not permit that.

I don't know if it's really an elite thing. There are lots of things you might want a rifle to do that a low powered, IER/LER scope and light weight package just don't do. Guys who shoot F Class competition are certainly wringing every bit of performance out of their rifles, and a Scout rifle just won't do the job, etc.

And there are a lot of folks out there who Scout up $90 Mosins with $20 Chinese shotgun scopes to pop coke cans on the range with because some guy named Cooper, whom the internet says is smart, suggested it. ;)

(And, before people start flaming me, let me add that there are also guys who Scout up $90 Mosins and know exactly what they're doing. No insult intended.)
 
I never had the chance to try out this scout rifle concept or thumper concept but I did try out corn tortillas after he called flour tortillas an unholy abomination, etc. I stopped worrying about his opinions after that, I enjoy my 9mm europellet crunchenticker, my poodleshooter rifle and my flour tortillas.
 
Scout Rifle vs. Practical Rifle

The Colonel and his Scout Rifle workshop buddies own the "Scout Rifle" brand as far as I'm concerned because of the time and effort they invested into the development of the "Scout Rifle" with criteria that came out of their collaboration.

There is the somewhat larger umbrella of the practical or high utility rifle under which the Scout Rifle fits. The criteria for a practical rifle my change from one person to the next depending on their needs.

For example, the Scout Rifle isn't the most practical design for a man who routinely make his living working horseback because the Scout rifle is too fat where it goes under the stirrup fender of the saddle. A mounted rifleman today would probably find a slab-sided lever action rifle more practical just as it was 100 years ago. And indeed we now see both Browning and Marlin lever-actions with IER scopes and and other elements of their configuration looking very practical and not too different in function from Cooper's classic bolt-action Scout rifles. It seems like more frequently those practical lever actions are labelled "Guide Guns" becasue those powerful saddle carbines are comfortable for mounted hunting guides to carry horseback.

Many of the rifles we love and have fun with are not generally very practical to carry a lot on a regular basis nor engage lots of kinds of targets from lots of different positions. Many of our pets are specialists and just aren't very versatile once removed from their intended environment.

No rifle functions very practically if the man who carries it can't hit his intended targets with his rifle. How does one practice enough go achieve pracitcal efficiency if can't afford enough practice ammo or can't handle the recoil of lots of practice?

I don't intend this as sexist language. We may also need to develop girl scout and boy scout practicalrifles to slightly different criteria adjusted to age and body size. A .223 may be more practical for a 12-year-old boy to practice with than a .308. A .243 may be more practical for a 14-year-old girl to practice and hunt with than a .308.

Few of us in civilian life practice with a rifle the way our mothers made us practice the piano when were kids. The most practical rifle for us will probably be one we have fun shooting a lot.

Any thoughts on the the "Scout Rifle" vs. the most pracitcal rifle?
 
At the time Col. Cooper proposed the Scout Rifle concept, most bolt rifles were long, heavy, and not so quick to handle for fast shots. He praised such rifles as the Winchester '94 for being quick-handling, but of course the .30 WCF is loaded with flat-point bullets, which limits its effective range. A bolt rifle allows use of pointed bullets. Having no scope over the loading port makes it quicker to top-off the magazine with single rounds, and if the rifle accept stripper clips, enables their use. Those of u who like to carry a rifle at its natural point of balance appreciate a scope not being in the way of a good grip. Personally, I like the scout scope set-up, and if using a regular scope, like it to be mounted quite far forward. I think there is much to like about the scout rifle, though if I actually purchase a rifle anytime soon with a forward scope mount, it might be a take-down Browning BLR, because the BLR is lefty-friendly. I have heard of a very few Savage Scouts being built in lefty configuration, but they are rare, and only occasionally produced, it seems, and the right-handed Savages I have seen seem less satisfying than my BLRs. I wish Ruger would make a run of lefty Frontiers.
 
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The Scout rifles is the weapon of the elite few

at least several classes

ROTFLMAO

Someone go inform our specops guys that they're ignorant and need to take a few classes so they can join the elite (and carry bolt guns that load with stripper clips). I'll make sure to pass on your words to one of their instructors I chat with occasionally. He'll be astounded that he's been a SEAL for 3 decades without learning this stuff, and I'm sure he'll sign up right away.

an optimal weapon that lends itself to their training.

Well, yeah. Whether it lends itself to a given real-world application is another question.

Training classes vs. confirmed kills and/or freezers full of meat... Hmmm...

I like the concept. I want a simplified scout as a quick-handling hunting rifle. You can't argue with light weight, both-eyes-open pointability, and easy bushwhacking length.

Still, just offhand I can also think of a lot that it won't do as well as another configuration, and I can think of drawbacks to the scope setup as well as advantages.

But are you SERIOUSLY advocating the use of stripper clips for a combat firearm in 2007?
 
Love Strippers

But are you SERIOUSLY advocating the use of stripper clips for a combat firearm in 2007?

How's about if instead of suggesting stripper clips are for combat we say they are a great way to carry extra ammo and are fast way to load a hunting rifle?

Ever live in a State where you can't carry a loaded rifle in your vehicle, but suddenly finding yourself wanting to pull off the road and load your rifle as fast as possible?

Just about anybody who has hunted very long has had that experience at least once when game crosses the road in front of them.

Legal and ethical sportsmen will get off the right of way and get out of their vehicle before they shoot. Stripper clips are a good way be both fast and legal.

My last two Scout rifles didn't accept stripper clips, but my next one will along with a magzine cut off.
 
The Right to Keep and Arm Bears,

Are you going to tell your SEAL buddy that he's not one of the elite few? He's never taken any training?

Just teasin' :D

A serious question, SOCOM really does use these things & it's not just a marketing gimmick?
 
A serious question, SOCOM really does use these things & it's not just a marketing gimmick?

Use what? Scout rifles set up per Col. Cooper's outline of characteristics? No.

How's about if instead of suggesting stripper clips are for combat we say they are a great way to carry extra ammo and are fast way to load a hunting rifle?

That seems to be where the Scout Rifle becomes contentious. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread by others, Cooper did not appear to be envisioning a military or paramilitary rifle when he laid out the specs for the Scout Rifle.

But he called it a "Scout Rifle" which has a decidedly paramilitary ring to it (unless he meant "Boy Scout Rifle," I suppose), and whether he meant it or not, a bunch of people have taken the Scout Rifle to be some sort of (allegedly) ideal and optimized military/paramilitary weapon. Read Bob Cashner's Poor Man's Scout Rifle, for instance, and for every page of practical how to discussion, you get about a half page of ranting and raving about the M16 and about how the Scout Rifle is the ideal guerilla/militia rifle for a Nation of Riflemen and all that usual not-been-there-not-done-that-or-never-learned-anything-while-there drivel. Now that's not Cooper, but it's out there and is the sort of thing that may be complicating the issue when people talk about it.

Whether Cooper meant it or not, the Scout Rifle is not a military arm. It would have been a superb idea in the early 1920s, might have even still had a niche up to about 1950, but if the M1 Garand did not render it obsolete, the StG-44 and AK-47 certainly did. For a woods gun for hunters and such, however, it has a lot to recommend it.
 
...Take a CZ527 carbine in 7.62X39, or better yet rebarreled to the 6.5Grendel cartridge, . Mount a low power scope forward from the conventional reciever mounting, and you'd have a cracker jack scout hunting rifle for whitetail and other medium game at resonable ranges. This would work up into a joy to carry, quick on target, and of suffient power for the humane harvest of medium game. If it was outfitted with a super light mannlicher style stock, all the better...FUN GUN!
 
Armed, nothing I said was inaccurate.:) The market for the Scout rifle (as I have posted thrice now) is very small and confined to educated and experienced shooters.

This does not mean however that everyone who constitutes this market will purchase a SS. Heck, we all know that in the gun culture the subjective is objective and among those with many hours it is no different. Your SEAL friend may very well have a different criteria, or just a different goal as SEAL training may have little to do with general purpose rifle (but then I do not know).

Of course, if I were in charge of Steyr's marketing I would turn this shortcoming into a positive as other companies have done.
 
Col. Cooper did not recommend the scout rifle for "repelling boarders," his nautical-derived term for defending a home or other premises. The role of the scout rifle is for one or two guys in an rural setting, who are NOT looking for a battle, and who are not trying to hold a piece of ground. I also remember Col. Cooper praising the M1 Garand as a battle rifle, so he was not recommending that the scout rifle replace the battle rifle. Just to be clear, I am not a Cooper/scout rifle purist, but I see posts criticizing the scout rifle from those who have not studied the concept. A scout rifle was never intended to replace all other rifles, but it was intended to be able to fill many roles, reducing the number of rifles a guy must own to cover all of the bases.
 
Also, even Col. Cooper did not say a scout had to be chambered in .308! The .308 is a short-action cartridge, and a short action weighs a bit less than a long action, yet the .308 is still able to shoot medium-sized big game, bad people, and inflict serious damage to bad people's vehicles. Another recommended catridge was the 7mm-08.
 
Getting back to the OP and to maybe clarify things a little, the definition as developed at the scout conferences, is 'way down towards the bottom of the page at:


http://www.steyrscout.org/project.htm

It certainly varies from what's been written in various places on the subject.
Might be worthwhile to note that it does not require the forward-mounted scope or use of stripper clips...



This is one of the things I like about the idea; anything light enough to balance on one finger is welcome when hunting the Mississippi river bluff country around the IA/MN/WI border. It's bad enough just dragging my sorry butt up and down those hills without a battleship anchor of a rifle. And if it has a sling that allows actually looping up in a hurry for longer shots, a bipod for stands along ridgeline hayfields and is superlatively fast on top of the bargain, well! :D

MVC-024F.jpg
 
you can use the Scout Rifle concept in anyway you like. Put on a forward mounted scope, or not. Shorten the barrel, or not. Lighten the stock, or not. The concept is basically, " jack of all trades, Master of none". Use it for hunting, or use it for SD. It fills the same role as Carbines were intended to do.
You can spend hundreds, if not thousands for a scout rifle. Or in my case, and my opinion, give a new life to Milsurp.
I altered, or as many would say "bubba-fied" my Ishapore 2A1. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
For me the Scout concept fell in place with how, and what I would need or use.
I bought the Ishy ten years ago for under a hundred dollars. Spent thirty bucks on a Red Dot, thirty bucks on a recoil pad, and fifty bucks to have the barrel recrowned.
It balances nice, carries nice. It turns heads at the range ( LOUD, Big Fireball),and I'm comfortable with the accuracy. Close enough for government work.
I never liked scopes, and with my older eyes, iron sights don't work as well as the red dot.
I like the power of the 7.62x51.
I do use the stripper clips, I only have one magazine, and I'm not fumbling loading a magazine one cartridge at a time.
I've enjoyed the concept, I've enjoyed the building, and I've enjoyed the one of a kind rifle that I have. enfieldishyscout.gif
 
LOL

So a Scout is just any rifle shorter than a 91/30, with whatever features, light or heavy, with whatever sighting system. Just call it a Scout and it is one!

Al Gore invented the Internet, and Jeff Cooper invented the rifle.

El Tejon, you defined "elite" as someone who's taken a few classes, and clearly implied that people who shoot guns with receiver-mounted scopes are the "great unwashed" who don't know what they're doing. And I'm saying that, if you don't understand that a forward-mounted scope isn't the best choice for every application, the classes have not been a net gain. What's the point of "education" that narrows the mind and leads to dubious decisionmaking?

And I say money talks and bull**** walks.

He's not just some random SEAL, BTW. He does advanced training, not BUD/S and not at Coronado. I'll be sure to pass on your definition of an "elite" shooter to him.
 
Ummm, no, I did not as clearly your definition of the "great unawashed" would include myself.:D You make your choice, you pay your admission fee, I was commenting on the market for the SS.

It is a weapon who market is for those that know what they are doing (the elite), not the guys at the sporting goods store working their bolts at their waist level with their tongues hanging out.:D
 
Yeah

They make a dandy little hunting rifle, and will do quite well if needed for other things. I don't think the concept was necessarily intended for military service.

Wouldn't mind having one of the Steyrs in 376. The Steyr Scout is the "scout" rifle. Now, there are other things that fill in the intended role as well, perhaps even better. Most of this is just semantics.

I've played with the forward mounted long eye relief scout scopes. I'd rather have a reddot or perhaps something like a S&B short dot (if they weren't so bloody expensive).

http://www.steyrscout.org/project.htm

376Steyr300s.JPEG

bullet2.jpg
Left to right: .308 Win, .350 Rem Mag,.376 Steyr, .375 H&H

.376 Steyr Data - 270gr Hornady SP Bullet
2550fps 3900ftlbs

steyrscout.jpg


steyr_scout_camo.jpg
 
Much as it pains me to say it, as a proud member of the Austrian-American minority, but the Steyr ought to at least include the scope.

I've liked what I've seen, but those things are just silly expensive for what they are.

the guys at the sporting goods store working their bolts at their waist level with their tongues hanging out.

Uh, if that's not synonymous with "the great unwashed" then I don't know what is.:)

Honestly, I think that the forward-mounted scope in particular appeals especially to those who have shotgun experience. Too many rifle-only shooters don't seem to know what pointing and gun fit mean. Maybe that's what they learn in classes, but it's a lot more fun to learn it while busting clays.

Still, I have a conventional .30-06 with a 24" barrel and a receiver-mounted scope, but when I look at something in the distance and raise the rifle to my shoulder and cheek, the target is in the middle of the scope. Gun fit matters with a rifle. THAT is what I've seen people just not have a clue about -- not that I'm putting them down for it, it's just something few people seem to teach new rifle shooters. I never did learn it while just shooting rifles. I didn't really "get it" until I started wanting to hit clay targets with a shotgun and had to find out how.

I also think that the forward-mounted scope is WONDERFULLY pointable, if the gun fits. The price you pay is limited magnification, and magnified FOV suffers, which is an issue in low light. There's a greater chance that the eyepiece gets crudded up with oil and solvent when you clean the gun, and perhaps even when you shoot it and load it from the top. You gain peripheral vision, the use of the off eye. Like I said, as a shotgunner, I like that.

Of course the Steyr makes use of detachable magazines, a good thing for the scope and practical use. But still, the pricetag is a real turnoff. When you're paying that price for a rifle, the world is full of wonderful temptations.

Also, the idea of backup irons is hardly new, but a very good one. Unfortunately, manufacturers have generally quit putting sights on a lot of rifles, and charge extra when they do (after keeping rifle prices the same when they removed the sights). Furthermore, the flip-ups that are readily available thanks to AR advances are great designs, but not cheap either.

Steyr's flip-ups on the Scout are neat, though again I can understand that most people would rather buy a good scope that is less likely to break than pay for them. I've got some return-to-zero Warne QD rings on my .30-06 boltie and they really do work. If I'm concerned about breaking the scope on a hunting trip, I can buy several of them, sight them all in, and put them in padded bags. In little more than the time it would take me to remove my scope to use irons, I can replace it with another pre-sighted scope instead. I also don't have to leave the scope on the rifle in transit.

The modern rifle offers so many options, it's mind-boggling (and wallet-busting). The "scout concept" is a great way to start thinking about what you want to build; it's just not the end-all.:)
 
Armed, you EastEmpirer you, I think your observations are correct, but I believe that the answer to your observations (shooters know little about weapon fit, etc.) is the fact that a lot (don't have a percentage and don't want to get in trouble again by assigning a number) of rifle shooting is done off a bench. Just look at all the bench shooting in the photos posted on THR.

I think once guys buy a rifle they need to carry it around all day around the house and practice dry snap shots. Once this is done handiness and weapon fit become better understood and the SS advantages are manifested.

Seeing as how I am way beyond the point of the original thread, I need to start my own thread.:D
 
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