Will 1911s fade away with the previous generation

sm,

Too many folks simply do not Investigate and Verify for themselves what works for them

excellent thought process in your above statement. I like the 1911 platform as much as anyone on this board as well as I mentioned earlier. They are one of the best platforms for ergos and can be shot by pretty some small in stature as well [ witness the compers who come in all shapes and sizes that run em hard and very well all the time ]

Doc2005,

If only they made them like they used to hey?

I'm not bashing the 1911's, I've simply stated what we see in the courses of fire between the 1911's and other firearms, whether they be made of allow, steel or plastic.

But back to the OP's question--how fast, fast enough when the time comes, and that takes practice, more practice than most are willing to spend in time and money to be the best they can be.

Brownie

1000 rounds in a day huh? Well, in the original Army tests way back in 1911 they fired 6000 rounds through a test pistol. They had several soldiers take turns keeping plenty of magazines loaded and firing the pistol. They fired it as fast as they could stuff in loaded magazines and pull the trigger. When the pistol became too hot to hold, they dunked it in a bucket of water to cool it off, then resumed firing. They did stop to clean and oil the pistol every 1000 rounds, but it fired all 6000 rounds without a single failure.

If you are seeing 1911's choke in firing 1000 rounds in a day, it probably means there is a problem with the gun. Most likely the pistols you see choke are not built to original specs. The further you stray from the original proven design, the more likely you are to have problems. Isn't that right 1911Tuner?

see my last post It's not about "jamming 800-1000 rounds into a gunfight", it's about how reliable the gun is and rds count before it pukes having always been a determing factor in many firearms trials by many agencies for decades in their adopting a firearm.

Click to expand...

being able to run 800 rounds has absolutly nothing to do with a guns likely hood to puke in the first 100.I understand what your trying to say.but what really matters is that we shoot our guns enough to learn their "puke point".
IE.my S&W 442 will foul the area where the cyl rides on the crane at about 150-200 rounds.to the point it affects the trigger pull and you know what take it apart and clean the crane she's GTG 100% for the next 100 rounds.every time all the time.so I'm pretty sure 800's out of the question but I guarentee she'll make it through the fight.

Don't know...I ran 3,000 rounds through my Colt Series 70 reissue, and my Glock 17. Neither one failed in any way shapre or form. The sole reason I finally cleaned each at 3,000 rounds was they were filthy!

By the way, I've seen several people go through well over 700 rounds with no cool down in Glocks, 1911, P35s, etc., etc and others and have no failures. They also did not have time to add oil. It was a real heavy-duty Advanced Tactical Shooting course. It had two requirements: 1) sucessful completion of a Tactical Shooting course, and 2) a fully reliable pistol.

We all seriously abused our weapons it that course.

I think they might die out, but only if we get goofy gun control laws that reduce us all to owning single shot .22 rifles. Products stay in production because of the market demand. If there was no longer a market for them, the supply would greatly decrease or cease. The number of shooters in this country is a far cry from what it once was. When my dad was growing up every boy on his street had at least one rifle. When I was younger I only knew one other person my age with guns, luckily for me he lived next door. He is now fixing helos for the army. If the number decreased to the point that there was no market, the supply would decrease. Since it is no longer standard issue for either the armed forces or most LEOs I can see an eventual fall in it's popularity assuming the population of gun owners declines. I hope that is not the case though.

being able to run 800 rounds has absolutly nothing to do with a guns likely hood to puke in the first 100.I understand what your trying to say.but what really matters is that we shoot our guns enough to learn their "puke point".

I totally agree with the above statement. Yet the more a gun runs before it pukes, the more reliable it is considered over another. Thats why the trials have always been held with higher rds count than just what will get us by in a firefight.

"Puke point", a new term, I like it a lot and will start using that in questions such as "Do you know what your guns puke point is?" Should we also expect the puke point to be determined based on several runs till it pukes and take the average of those?

Through the power of the internet and it's information exchanges, a new coined phrase is born.

Brownie

Good point re: can break in the first 100 rounds, but then the parts could break on the first round or not until 100,000 rounds. Industry and shootists rely on probability. What is the "p-value" of a catastrophic failure in X rounds, when using a confidence interval of 0.01? That means we are 99.99% certain that the reliability is due to the design and not the sample.

I see no problem with the established process.

Edit to add: THis makes me want to go buy a new Colt Series 70 reissue, but this on in blued steel.

Yawn.......another "1911 is the king of malfunctions" thread.

Someone must have forgotten to tell my three 1911s that they are supposed to malfunction. But then again, I don't buy out of spec junk and expect it to perform like the original GI guns.

brownie0486,

Please call me Steve.
Granted my user name requires less typing. *grin*


For everyone's benefit , I have never met Brownie in person or spoken to him on the phone.

That said, I am betting Brownie shares with students, no matter what equipment they show up.

Software, not Hardware.

My take is:

Software becomes the problem, not the Hardware.

Put another way: Software will get outdated, not the Hardware.

I am only 52, still my life experiences and observations, mirror what my Mentors and Elders shared and passed onto me.

How many learned to drive on a stick shift (manual transmission)?
How many took typing in school on a Manual Typewriter? Electric?

How many know how to warm up leftovers without a Microwave Oven?
Did you think of using a Microwave first, when reading that question?

Do you know how folks ironed clothes before electric irons?
Have you done this? Could you do so if you had to?

-

Folks are not passing forward, and new generations do not want to hear about, much less try, and forget anything of yesteryear.

True. My mom, hates computers. She only knows enough to get by.
Emergency situation, No electricity, No Computer System (network down) but the land-line telephone worked.
Real serious information needed to be across town.
Younger co-workers, totally freaked, "computer is down!"

Mom reaches for the Manual Typewriter kept in a cabinet, shelf below has an electric one.
She does this legal document, with carbon paper, the Courier Service arrives, and this legal document is hand delivered across time, before deadline.

How this was all done, before Computers, Internet, Email and the whole bit.
Sure the IBM Selectric is "out dated" and the Royal Manual is too...

Mom's Software is not Outdated. She might not like, or really want to learn more about Computers and Internet, but she has Software First.

She may be Old School [soon to be age 78 and still works full time btw] but she is valuable.
That legal document was really that serious!

People Skills, she is Old School.
Irate, upset, and causing a scene Person.
Her younger co workers can communicate on PCs with Email .
They called Security to handle this person.
Mom: "You folks read that News letter on PC and tell me about it, I always goof up getting my PC to access that stupid thing..."

Mom goes out and "kills with nice" this Upset person. Security, young and mouths dropped when this BIG fella, just turned to putty before their eyes.

Situation handled, formal apology from this Big Fella and all is well.

'Okay what did that stupid news letter and Net meeting have to say?
Sure liked the hardcopy days better...
Great, someone help me log in so I can reply and "attend" by logging in on on this stupid computer".
-Mom
Who also says:
"I do stuff they can't and them for me and what do I care if it is cheating, I am an old woman and cheating is a great attribute".


Software, not Hardware.

brownie0486, Please call me Steve.

Will do.

I am betting Brownie shares with students, no matter what equipment they show up.

correct, no preprequisites on equipment [ hardware ], but an open mind [ sofware ] is emminently preferred

I'll even break out the sightless 45 in classes from time to time. It's always a pleasure to bang away with the old slabsides 1911. The accompanying photo shows the one I'm talking about.

another "1911 is the king of malfunctions" thread. I must have missed those posts in this thread.

Brownie

The 1911 will not fade out with the change of generations any more than the SAA has. They are iconic and they work.

Are there more optimal choices?

Yes.

Do the state of the art pistols of today completely obsolete the 1911?

No. Probably the biggest "drawback" to the 1911 is the limited magazine capacity, but even then magazine changes a quick and easy. There have been no revolutions in pistol design since the introduction of the 1911, merely evolutions.

There's several of you that mis-took my post... but if you had looked at the link "Kimber Ageis"... I just bought another 1911 a month ago, the 8th I've bought, I've sold 4 and regret ever sale... who but a 1911 guy would pay the extra money to get a 'Kimber Custom Shop' gun?

Just a minute. Let me collect my many thoughts first: and finally

Go buy yourself a Colt...you're in denial. I think you have pistol envy. If it's all about the rounds, let me grab my Bushmaster Carbon 15, Model 21 with its 90-round magazine and don't forget 1 in the chamber.

Click to expand...

Ah... I was Implying that too many didn't like the 1911 because of it's limited 7-10 round capacity, believeing that MORE AMMO in the gun will help you hit the target, just like the US Military did with the M9 in the early 80's. I preffer the wilson 8 rounders myself for the .45acp, loaded with Corbon +p Hollow Points or the 165gr Hydro Shock with tungsten core, can't go wrong with standard 230gr ball either. I won't miss 7 times and have to pray for that 8th to hit COM, I can shoot my M9 hitting stacks of 5 ton tires at 124 meters on a laser range finder, you should see what I can do at less than 50 with both a 1911 and a M9.

As for the Bushmaster Carbon 15, that's worse than owning a Glock... I go for the Rock River Arms Entry Tactical, that has everything on it my issued does, nothing but 30 round mags loaded at 27 for me, I wish I could take my RRA to war instead of my Colt M4... moveing on.

Who would want to over spend for a Colt? maybe one made in the 70's... the old ones have the greatest blue' jobs, but the new ones are about as ugly as a Rock Island 1911... Nope, I'll stick with my Springfield's and my Kimbers, while saving and drooling for an Ed Brown.

Finially:

Want proof that the 1911 is here till the end of the world... There's like 50 companys makeing 1911's... you think they're makeing money or looseing money? They must be makeing money?

Here is a list of companys makeing 1911's

--- Standard Width M-1911s
Alan Tillman
Ace Custom
AMT
Angleport
Armscor
Auto Ordnance
Les Baer
Briley
Ed Brown
R.D. Burns
Clark Custom
Colt
Coonan
CQB Products
Cylinder & Slide
Charles Daly
Dawson Precision
Detonics USA
Dlask
Guncrafter Industries LLC
Horton
Imbel
Imperial Defence
Israel Arms Inc.
Kimber
Krebs Gunsmithing
Limcat
Lone Star Armament
Millennium Custom
Mitchell
Nighthawk Custom
Norinco
Novak
Nowlin
Olympic Arms
Peters Stahl
Pistol Dynamics
Rock Island
Rock River Arms
Scott McDougall & Associates
Sigarms
Smith & Wesson
Shooters Arms
Springfield Armory
STI
Tanfoglio
Tussey Custom
Unertl
Valtro USA
Dan Wesson
Wilson Combat

--- Wide-Body M-1911s
Alan Tillman
Angleport
Les Baer
Briley
Bul Transmark
Campiere Custom
Clark Custom
Cylinder & Slide
E.A.A.
Entreprise
Israel Arms Inc.
Kimber
Limcat
Millennium Custom
Novak
Para Ordnance
Rock Island
Rock River Arms
Imbel
Springfield Armory
STI
SVI
Tussey Custom
Wilson Combat

SM said:

Heck, a few folks are using OLD Colt DS's made in late 20's and 30's for Carry Guns...

Click to expand...

carried my 1903 Pocket Hammerless the other day. made in 1919.

Oh "we" know about thread *wink*

Silly Little Tribes - Tamara

Folks take sides, parrot information they have no experience about and post.
Called InnerNet GunFourUms

Tamara, Old Fuff, Jim Keenan, Jim Watson, Brownie, Preacherman, 1911Tuner and umpteen bazillon others on THR , TFL, and other Sister Sites, have more knowledge and experience in their little pinkie, than I will ever learn in a lifetime.
One is left to be brutally honest and access themselves about all this gun stuff.

Tamara. I mean she is a girl and everything. *smirk*
New Folks, do a Search for :
The Day HCI Wanted Me Dead - by Tamara
It might be in THR, or TFL, Archives, look it up.
Software is shared in her work, and if you really gotta know about guns and stuff in that story...look it up, I am not going to do the work for you, sorry.

The interesting thing about Real Life is, there is NO magic associated with having a gun period for one.
Second, There is NO Holy Grail in regard to a Make, Model , Caliber or Ammunition.

...don't forget that SIGs rust, 1911's jam, USP's break firing pins, Delta Elites crack their frames, and Berettas break their locking blocks right before putting the back half of the slide through your bridgework.

The faster most folks realize that all guns suck, the happier they'll be.

-Tamara

Click to expand...

Well hell! That settles that now don't it.

Software is all we got left then I guess...

So what do with do with this thread now?

We run what we brung is what

My role is to pass forward as passed to me.
The fact THR, TFL and Sister Sites tend to have Mission Statements that agree with me is great.
I am going to do my thing, no matter.

All I can or anyone else around here do is, share experience, strength and hope.

Not Everyone that reads THR, TFL and Sister sites is a member of said forums, live in the USA and are Pro Gun.

Global we are.
We have Antis' and not much we can do about them.
Fence Sitters we can do a LOT.

Folks do Internet Searches and wind up say here at THR as we continue to have a new cycle of Folks, Pro gun, Anti's and Fence Sitters, use Internet, from all over the world, to get information.

Some Countries have RESTRICTIVE gun laws , they cannot even have Handguns.
All sorts of other Restrictions, so one is wise to keep Global in mind.

In the USA, we have areas of the Country with Restrictions too.
Under age 21 folks as well, and for them, they are denied the right to carry a weapon, firearms, and sometimes other means to defend.

Called Life. Run what you brung.

So, lets run what we brung and when folks do a search on "Outdated", "Glock", "1911", "Software", "Hardware" - give them what they should be getting passed forward in the form of information gained from experience and observations from members.


I mean this ain't rocket science

Brownie wrote:
I'll even break out the sightless 45 in classes from time to time. It's always a pleasure to bang away with the old slabsides 1911. The accompanying photo shows the one I'm talking about



I just happen to know that gun's kinfolk

1955 and the Stork drops me off.
Maternal Grandma, sticks a .22 Revolver in my dresser drawer crib.
I was "busy" until age 3-ish.
Grandma and I shot MY gun when I was 3-ish

Age 6, and I shoot my first center-fire handgun, a Gov't Model of 1911.
Gunny (I had quite a few "Gunny's growing up), and I learned all about that gun, and I also learned some words I was not supposed to use around Grandma and others, especially ladies.

NO sights was how one of the 1911s was set up.
Army was teaching among other things, how to shoot without sights.
The real possibility mud, dirt, one's eyes with blood, sweat, and other situations dictated, one needed to know and be proficient with a handgun (firearm period) with NO sights.

I get a bit bigger, and K frames , then BHPs entered my young life.

One day, .22 revolver, real similar to my own, was handed to me with NO sights.
The .22 rifle did not have any sights either.

Rut-Roh, this was going to be another one of them passing forward bits, Mentors & Elders did.
This passing forward never stopped, and I am so grateful for all the stuff they did.

I learned to shoot shotguns without bead too.
BB Guns had the sights removed.

I recall watching black and white "Army Films" [what a kid like me called them] and seeing Aerial gunners shooting skeet, and many of the shotguns did not have beads.

No computers back then, so the tern "human computer" was not used, just not in our vocabulary at the time.

Natural eye to hand coordination was.
As was Gun fit, Correct basic fundamentals, Quality Practice and other stuff I have shared, and others around her have too.

My eyesight was exceptional, some call it "Chuck Yeager Eyes".
I could see better up close, and at a distance.
This lasted until my early 40's. I miss them eyes I had.

Still, I was a kid, right handed, right eye dominate, and getting lessons.
I was lucky to have inherited some genes, that included some shooting abilities.

Mentors put patches on my dominate eye, had me wear glasses that for me, made everything blurry.

No sights often times, and dim light, no light.
Black targets show in the dark, I learned this at a very very young age.
Black clothes on 3 dimensional targets and I was hitting them, with good hits, fast, in the dark, with no sights.

Brownie, quit grinning, you are liable to hurt yourself.

One day, I am handed a pistol, and I really really liked the front sight.
I had "earned" the right to be passed onto , to a new level.

Gold Bead front sight. It really was 14 karat yellow gold.
Gun fighters tip Young'un, now pay attention here...


Other guns, 1911s, BHPs, K frames, Beretta's , Colts, Hardware Store guns that the gun broke open...had these Gold beads.

Deal was, folks learned to shoot, without beads.

Never learn on a crutch Young'Un...

I am clicking along, shooting right handed, weak handed , both hands using right or left as primary hand, no sights, factory sights, gold beads and ...

Give the gun, give me your knife, now what are you going to do?

I am not "that" big.

Now step into the dimension of NOT being dependent on anything [Hardware] and dealing with Life Stuff.

I was also lucky to have a "knack" that had come out when a wee brat.
This was noticed early in my life, and Mentors & Elders worked with me, and made sure that /those "knacks" were built upon.

If I said my gut did not feel right about something, folks shut up, stopped whatever they were doing , and paid attention to me.
Lucky, uncanny, genes, whatever, but my eyes and "knacks" were something very useful to me then, and still are.


Deal was then, as it is today:

-Don't get into a situation where you have to defend yourself.
-Leave if trouble shows up.
-Evade without Engaging.
-Know what to do, if the above cannot be done.
-Do not rely on any one thing or things to keep you safe, or defend with.

Yes, I have been in situations, part of what I was raised into, dictated my life's direction and experiences, and why I am the way I am.

Yes, I have used Firearms, and knives to defend myself and /or others.
These are Older designs, and folks can and do call these items "out dated".

Yes, I have and am still in areas where I cannot have anything. Metal Detectors, patted down and all.

Yes, I have been in situations where I had no option, except to "run what I brung".

Old chrome telescoping car antennas, work just like these new one pc black ones all vehicles have.
I know, I have used them both, granted I prefer the new ones, based on my experiences.

Tennis shoes today have a bit better traction than the old ones.
Leathers soles, old, new, still are slippery, and the same tips from yesteryear, apply to leather soles today.


Software, not Hardware.


Steve

the low capacity of the 1911 is what I dont like about it but chambered in 45acp and being so thin and easy to conceal it fills nice nich. Even my xd45 fullsize is a little to thick but It gives me 14 rounds of 45, not to thick but thicker than a 1911. I will still own 1911 as every American male should.

Brownie:

Now that's a nice looking sightless 1911! What make and model is that? Is it a "mil-spec"? Back to the question:

Will 1911s fade away with the previous generation?

Click to expand...

I see several reasons that the 1911 will be around for a very long time:

Historically they have proven highly reliable.
Historically they have proven highly accurate.
Historically they have proven highly comfortable.
Historically they have proven highly nostalic.

Here's my latest pony:

View attachment 319789

Doc2005

Another reason it won't fade away is it's just plain "fun" to shoot!

Despite the fact that everyone talks about "self-defense", a lot of guns are sold just because people like to shoot them..."shooters" like them.

"Puke point", a new term, I like it a lot and will start using that in questions such as "Do you know what your guns puke point is?"

Click to expand...

cool I made a catch phrase,BTW totally agree about software I have often used the example of if you were sitting across the table from Bill Hickock and his .36 navys (which IMHO are now a little outdated for SD) how quick you'd be to call him out with your modern auto,I know I'd be using good manners.

your sightless 45 is too newfangled,the old codger at the range I frequent back when I was young(i'm sure he's gone now) had a model 10 with no bbl.
used to put 6 COM at 15 yards every time all the tine.

Eh, another misguided soul.

When the art of using a handgun fell into disuse, the high-caps came into their own. Giving more rounds in a less powerful cartridge was seen as an answer to the lack of skill acquired by the user. Take a look at what is being carried by those who train well and have some discretion over what they can carry. Many opt for the "outdated" 1911.

Now the reliability issue. I have two handguns that I carry regularly, both 1911 pattern pistols. I've had exactly one malfunction apiece. One was a recoil spring I neglected to change before a 2,000 round class resulting in a failure to feed. Operator error, failure to properly maintain my weapon. The second was a FTE on the pistol right after it came back from being gutted and reworked by a 'smith. Have not been able to duplicate the problem since, many, many rounds, reloads and drills later.

In short, no. The 1911 isn't going anywhere. There are too many people buying them as both big-boy toys and as weapons. There have been no major innovations since it's inception, only upgrades (if you choose to call plastic an upgrade) of existing technology. Few other handguns chambered for the .45acp are as ergonomic. None have as good a trigger. None that I am aware of are as easy to conceal.

Now that's a nice looking sightless 1911! What make and model is that? Is it a "mil-spec"?

It's a milspec S A M frame with WW2 parts kit upper and barrel/barrel bushing. New short trigger, hammer, sear etc.

Duracoated by a good friend and shooting buddy of mine named Kevin here:
http://www.azexarms.com/

The gun was then taken to Nelson Ford [ The Gunsmith ] in Phoenix and all put together.

In other words, it's a parts gun that runs

Steve:

Thats a hell of a way to be taught how to use your instinctive abilities, and your elders and mentors did you a huge favor showing you how to use them at such an early age. I'm jealous, I didn't get that till I was 30

Stay sharp out there

Brownie

Forgot to mention,

The sightless 45's puke point is 300 minimum and 400 rds maximum before it needs the slide removed and quickly sprayed out.

Brownie

The 1911 will be around for a long time. The platform may evolve and accomodate different calibers and popular features, but it will by no means go away with the next generation.

I'm 23, and own a 1911. Great gun, never had a malfunction with it. I find them to be some of the most attractive and ergonomic handguns around.

All of the top law enforcment units like the FBI HRT and SWAT units, LA PD SWAT Unit, and the Marine MEU SOC, seem to be buying these guns for their top officers, and their creme d la creme special operations units. You know the guys who are MOST likely to encounter extremely dangerous criminals terrorists and other enemies.

ALL of the top competitive shooters seem to like them as well (unless they are being paid to use something else).

There is just some strange fascination on the part of all of these top shooters and LE experts that makes them want to be able to hit stuff on the first shot. And for some strange reason they all choose the 1911.