Birdshot For HD?

I load 000 buck because people do weird things when you shoot at them like seek cover.

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Bingo! If you're using bird shot "because it won't penetrate walls and hurt someone", then that's what you should expect will happen when the BG takes cover. 'Nuf said.

Also - expecting to shoot through a refrigerator to take out an intruder is silliness right out of Dirty Harry.

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Uhh, never had CQB training, have you? Have you ever shot a refrigerator with 00 buck? They're built a lot like car doors, enough metal in some places to stop projectiles, not enough in many others. Look around your house. Most of the things you might think would make good "cover"(IOW, will reliably stop rounds) are actually only "concealment". Mistaking "concealment" for "cover" is a serious mistake. The thing that converts a lot of concealment to cover is using ammunition that won't penetrate the concealment.

That said, if I came home from bird hunting and walked in on an intruder in my house armed only with bird shot, would I give up? Heck no. I'd make do with what I had, understanding the limitations. Would I choose bird shot for the HD shotgun at the bedside? Again, the answer would be no. The difference is whether you're planning on a best case scenario or a worst case scenario and the trade offs that we all have to make based on accurate information. Best case is that I get a clean, frontal shot at the bad guy from no more than 10 feet away with no obstructions, him not wearing a leather jacket, etc. I'm not depending on that to happen.

After all has been said, my 30+ as an LEO years of wiping bad guys off the floor, attending more autopsies than I care to recall, I will repeat what I have said many times before. It doesn't matter what you use for HD purposes.

My 20 gauge Nova has #6 shot in it that I bought from Walmart. I am quite comfortable knowing that it will "take care of business" should the need arise. I have investigated more shootings with small shot than buckshot. At HD distances, either of them will take down a bad guy if he is hit in the vitals, no matter how many clothes and coats he has on. If he is not hit in the vitals, a 50 cal machine gun won't stop him if he is determined to go on.

We had a firefight when I first started in LE. My buddy got hit in the abdomen with a load of 00 buck. It took out a kidney and he was out of work for a year. He lived to retire. The bad guy got taken down with a 30 cal M-1 carbine, the issue rifle of the time.

I will repeat it for what it is worth: It doesn't matter what you have in your musket. If you have a home invasion, burglary, or the need to take down a bad guy, just put it in the vitals. If a refrigerator is in your way, shoot some more. Keep shooting until the menace is down.

My respects to everyone that disagrees with me. I have been there, done that. Most folks have been lucky enough not to observe the sad incidents I have seen. One or two investigations does not make a certain load better than another. Cumulative years and decades of wiping these creeps off the floor and streets tell me that for HD, it doesn't matter. Just use what you have in the chamber. It will work.

Just use what is bound to me most effective, buckshot. Does birdshot have the ability to stop and or kill a perp? I have no doubt it does. But why not use the shot that has better odds of working, and working better, in less than desirable conditions?

Wow, that was a freaky story! If it happened to me, I would pell mell out of there, and take my mav 88 and some buckshot/slugs with me, and go hide, rather than wait there for him. How well do you think the high-speed steel #4 turkey/duck-shot would work compared to the birdshot? Also, does anyone know how to make rock salt/bean bag/rubber loads safely? I would like to make a few for HD.

#4 bird shot at 3 yards penetrates a maximum of 6.5 inches, the FBI determined you need a minimum of 12, and preferably 18 inches of penetration to stop a human threat. No matter how much people want it to be, birdshot is not a man stopper, it is designed for birds after all.

There may be cases where someone was blinded by bird shot or had the first few inches of tissue turned to hamburger but it will not penetrate to vitals reliably even at extremely close range. Someone may choose to disengage after being hit by bird shot, but that doesn't equate to forcing them to stop, they could just as easily finish attacking you, and then go to the hospital. If I'm forced to shoot an attacker I want my ammunition to do everything it can to force them to stop, not choose to.

Over penetration is a concern, we have the responsibility to select the proper ammunition but we but it shouldn't be so much of a concern that one intentionally reduces the effectiveness of their firearm to the point that it wont work. There are plenty of tests around that clearly show bird shot is not a man stopper, the box-o-truth did some good penetration tests.

#00 buckshot is already less of a penetrator than handgun or rifle rounds and is an excellent self defense load, shot smaller than #1 buck may not have enough penetration to stop a bad guy. A bullet capable of penetrating a bad guy enough to reach vitals is going to penetrate several walls.

Intentionally reducing penetration to the point of ineffectiveness is like setting a universal speed limit of 5 MPH because anyone hit by a car at that speed can survive, that may be true but at that point we've eliminated the usefulness of the car.

I would never use birdshot as HD. If I couldn't get buckshot for some reason, my next choice would have to be something along the lines of a "TURKEY LOAD" #2-5 shot. Turkey loads are going to be the hottest lead loads that you can find, and a turkey's feathers have been known to be able to deflect some bullets if shot at a glance.

Anyway, can you imagine having to pick out hundeds of pellets out of your hide? But then again, anyone that I have to shoot, I will make sure they are DEAD, DEAD, DEAD. Life is too short to be looking over your shoulder or waiting to be sued by someone that lived after you shot them.

How well do you think the high-speed steel #4 turkey/duck-shot would work compared to the birdshot? Also, does anyone know how to make rock salt/bean bag/rubber loads safely? I would like to make a few for HD.

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Home defense is about stopping the threat, not pissing it off.

When it comes to HD would shouldn't look at less than lethal because if it comes down to a gun fight the other guy isn't thinking that. Stop the threat, better that person dead or seriously wounded than you.

About as far as thinking less than lethal on home defense should stop at, should I put in a security system or get a dog as a "watch dog".

Birdshot works if close enough.

Buckshot works, period.

We cannot predict the range of our next firefight. Until we can, I'll use 00.

In my younger- more delinquent--days of shooting junk cars---plywood---and most anything else I cared to put a bead on----let me assure you that birdshot will most definitely get the job done on a BG if you do your part.

Birdshot works if close enough.

Buckshot works, period.

We cannot predict the range of our next firefight. Until we can, I'll use 00.

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Indeed.......

Actually a load of no. 2's or even 4's at normal hd ranges is pretty hard to beat and o/p is usually a non issue. You might be suprised at the amount of damage that birdshot at close range will do. In my opinion it's better than buckshot close up. Now I'm talking point blank to about 10 yds.

One incident is an anecdote, not data.

That said, I'd load a HD shotgun with buck myself.

"My respects to everyone that disagrees with me. I have been there, done that. Most folks have been lucky enough not to observe the sad incidents I have seen. One or two investigations does not make a certain load better than another. Cumulative years and decades of wiping these creeps off the floor and streets tell me that for HD, it doesn't matter. Just use what you have in the chamber. It will work."

Bro. My utmost respect for your experience BUT mine has been different. I have seen too many survived bird shot wounds to say other than almost contact distance they are not that effective. Almost contact doesn't work for LE OR HD. Sure nobody likes to get shot and a load of #6 in the torso at 20 feet MAY put them down pronto. It likely as not won't however in my 30 years experience. So that won't be good advice to reccomend IMHO.
That said this sounds like a couple shallow end of the gene pool guys.

Lostinspace beat me to the boxotruth link. My HD / bedroom gun is a Mosberg 500, 18-1/2" barrel, loaded with #1 buck.

When the chips are down I don't wanna have to doubt the effectiveness of my chosen HD load. Yes getting shot with birdshot within 10 yards probably sucks big time. But, will the BG have time and strength left to raise his Glock Fotay or whatever he brung to the fight and pull the trigger after being shot with it?

I prefer 00 buck backed up with Brenneke slugs. I haven't patterned any #1 buck out of my HD guns. I've pattern tested some #4 and wasn't thrilled. Within 25 yds I know what my 00 load will do. Within 100 yds I know what my Brenneke slugs will do.

I see. I understood about the small birdshot, like #8, but I had thought maybe the larger, faster loads would be somewhat comparable to buckshot. I also keep pure buckshot and slugs in my HD. As far as that, I like to put the slug in the mag. tube last, so that it will load first. That way, If I have to take a precise (for a shotgun) shot-as in a hostage situation or something like that, I know I won't be as likely to hit something other than the target. If the BG were to return fire, I would still have buckshot to send his way. In what order do you guys load your duckguns?

is this really still going on?

If you don't want to over penetrate then go with 4 buck.

Bird shot is just that.
You will never see a swat or military entry team using bird shot (unless on bird hunting trip)
Do you self a favor and get 4buck or beyond.

With all respect due to the Feds and their tests - if you put a load of #6s anywhere along a BG's zipper he is D.O.N.E., and just TWO inches of penetration will be just fine thank you.

With all respect due to the Feds and their tests - if you put a load of #6s anywhere along a BG's zipper he is D.O.N.E., and just TWO inches of penetration will be just fine thank you.

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And what happens if the attacker is 10 feet away half hidden behind a wall?
Yeah you might spray him but out comes his 45acp putting one in your chest now your dead.

With my 000 I shoot the attacker and have to replace my wall end of story

n what order do you guys load your duckguns?

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I load my tube full of 7 000 and have 6 slugs on saddle.

Shawnee, thanks for your very enlightening post. We are among the few that are not wannabe Rambos. I have been called a sub-species from the lower end of the gene pool. Wow! I always wondered what I was. Now I know.

Go by the expert's advice and protect your castle with whatever you wish. Meantime, me and my little 20 gauge will snuggle up to the fire and get warm. It is rather cold and windy. Ring the doorbell and we will have a hot cuppa coffee. If anyone cares to come visiting uninvited, a hearty and warm welcome, complete with 7/8 oz of #6s.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, even the guy that put me at the lower end of the gene pool. I totally disagree with overdoing anything. My apologies to those whom I have offended by sharing my experiences and advice.

I gracefully bow out of this thread so that the paranoia can resume.


Happy shooting!

I have been called a sub-species from the lower end of the gene pool.

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I think that comment was directed at the two geniuses having the shootout with the 97's, not you.