Felons

The criminals will get the guns anyway. No amount of gun laws will stop them, that is just common knowledge.

But to allow them to regain their second amendment rights after infringing upon the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of innocent citizens, is in my opinion a worthless endevour.

I have never met a rehabilitated criminal in my entire life. Ever. Not one. Every single person that I have met that served time in prison for violent crimes, drug related or some other serious crime, eventually violates parole and returns to his ways. There are very few that stay straight and narrow.

Is it the corrections system fault? probably, that is another debate in itself.

But restricting the firearm rights of convicted felons, it gives law enforcement another hand in controlling and regulating the lives of these criminals.

Paying a debt to society in jail is far different now then back in the day. People changed for the better in the past. Now it only makes them worse.

Sorry for the rant. I could go on forever on the sorry state of criminal institutions today, but this needs to remain firearms related. I also hope what I said made some sense. Im not trying to sound in favor of gun laws either

The only reasonable predictor of future behavior is that of the past,and while there are some obvious non-violent offenses that would seem to have no bearing on a person's willingness to engage in violent criminal behavior,I believe that overall a felony conviction speaks much to a person's overall character and ability to play by all rules.
I don't believe that any rights are absolute when an individual decides to tread on the rights of others and that felons who have made the choice to break laws need to understand that if,for example,they value $ enough to engage in blue collar or white collar crime to get it,they should expect to pay for it by exchanging many of their future rights.
It is insane to suggest that either someone is fit for 100% participation in society or fit for death and expect any sort of modern,reasonable level of civilization.Like every human institution,the judicial system is far from perfect but remember,it's taken 231 years of trial and error to get the US's where it is at this point.The bigger problem is that some people still live with an ethos from a time humans lived in caves.

So, knowing what some jurisdictions have made a felony, do you still think felonies should prevent you from owning arms?

It depends what the person of convicted of. Non-violent felons should not have their 2nd amendment rights revoked. Violent felons (rape, murder, att murder, assualt, kidnapping...) should result in their 2nd amendment rights being revoked.

i've got a different perspective than most. i like the system in va. you petition the govenor for rights restoration. its not that hard but their should be a few hoops to weed out folks

What do we need "hoops" for when we've got bars and executions to keep violent felons away from arms and society?

Woody

"Charge the Court, Congress, and the several state legislatures with what to do with all the violent criminals who cannot be trusted with arms. We law abiding citizens shouldn't be burdened with having to prove we are not one of the untrustworthy just because those in government don't want to prevent crime by keeping violent criminals locked up." B.E. Wood

if in fact our system was functional i'd agree cowboy but its on life support sadly.
i'm in the process of getting my rights restored and the new system in va is quite reasonable. there are a number of folks outa jail i don't ever want to see legally armed and most of em are too lazy or lame to go through the legal process. and as someone else noted the criminals won't concerm themselves with the legal niceties and deserve to be jammed when they get caught

There are holes in everyone's argument you can drive tanks through:

1. Most convicts are released on parole, which means that they are still in the custody of the State, just not behind bars. This means that, while released, they have yet to pay their debt to society.

A. The vast majority of these convicts cannot be trusted on parole and are
remanded back into custody.
B. The vast majority of felons, after parole, continue to commit felonies. The recidivism rate for felons is off the charts, so the argument that these are rehabilited, misunderstood individuals is garbage.

So almost 70-80 percent of felons have proven they cannot conform to society's rules (even the stupid rules) and have proven incapable of being responsible citizens, even after release.

2. Yes, there are a large number of felonies that should not be felonies. More than a few of these laws are incredibly stupid and shouldn't be on the books at all. Be that as it may, they are felonies and it's universally known that if you commit a felony part of the lingering consequences are no firearms ownership. It's not new, been that way almost 40 years. If you don't like the consequences then don't commit the felony!

"Yes, there are a large number of felonies that should not be felonies. More than a few of these laws are incredibly stupid and shouldn't be on the books at all. Be that as it may, they are felonies and it's universally known that if you commit a felony part of the lingering consequences are no firearms ownership. It's not new, been that way almost 40 years. If you don't like the consequences then don't commit the felony!"

Exactly. i am especially opposed to gun ownership for anyone convicted of a felony for violent behavior.

Good posts Zoogster, nice well researched information.

Let 'em have their guns back, might actually make the blissninnies go buy some of their own and bring them back to liberty instead of liberal.

If the debt is paid, it's paid. If you want to mire in semantics related to non-gun issues, go to armedpolitesociety.com and argue with Riley, fistful, Euclidean and the rest of the gang. Me, I'm jeepmor over there too, no surreptitious anonymity for me.

BTW - The US government is the largest government in the history of mankind. How can that be good for anyone but politicos?

Some people change... I had committed numerous felonies years ago... Non-violent in nature. In fact, I would say that I was a perpetual "walking felon" at one point in my life...

I was never convicted of any of those felonies , and I changed my life years ago...

I agree that people out of jail should have their rights restored, but I would change the system to this.

1. The only felonies on the books are murder,rape,treason,kidnapping, and the attempts of said crimes.
2. All felons must serve at least 50 years in jail before possibility of parole.
3. All illegal immigrants convicted of a crime will be deported and are never allowed to return, second offense if they return is death.

The people who pose a real threat already have guns, whether the law says they can or not. Laws only affect the law abiding, former felon or not, and you'd be kidding yourself to think that these laws have stopped anyone you should be worried about from owning a gun.

It's not that I want to give criminals access to guns(they already have that), it's that I think the law has failed miserably at keeping guns out of the hands of dangerous individuals, and is a waste of my time and money as a tax payer and consumer.

Most violent offenders are repeat felons. I think we need to change the classification of felonies to only violent crimes, also it would help if we didn't let rapists, murderers and pedofiles back on the streets.

Violent felons should not be allowed to own firearms. But there are a lot of felony laws on the books that do not involve violence. Violent offenses involving murder, assault, rape, armed robbery etc. should be the reasons to take away the right to own a firearm

They can legally own a .44 BP revolver or BP shotgun.

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Not in Illinois.

I would suggest looking at the recidivism rates in Europe and compare them to the rates here. It is a shocking and startling difference. I think we could learn a lot from them.

I would suggest looking at the recidivism rates in Europe and compare them to the rates here. It is a shocking and startling difference. I think we could learn a lot from them.

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there is not that much real difference in recidivism for specific crimes. burglers tend to continue burgling, etc.

there is a substantial difference in who they choose to incarcerate, and how.

I get a little heat every time I mention this one, but I can take it,

Let's say I'm a cop, in a home whose head of household is a known felon. I am there on an unrelated matter. As I am about to leave, I see a shotgun behind the door. It is obviously there because this guy lives in a bad part of town, among bad people. In this case, I'm going to look the other way. This guy needs self-protection at LEAST as badly as the rest of us do. He won't get a carry permit, but he should be able to feel safe in his own house, no matter who he is.

Let's say I'm a cop, in a home whose head of household is a known felon. I am there on an unrelated matter. As I am about to leave, I see a shotgun behind the door. It is obviously there because this guy lives in a bad part of town, among bad people. In this case, I'm going to look the other way.

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Cops just don't think that way for the most part. I am not sure if they should.

In the grand scheme of things, a non-violent felon with a shotgun in his home is probably no threat to anyone else.

OTOH, it is a cheap and safe gun crime arrest. Most cops are going to make it and take the brownie points that come with it.

But restricting the firearm rights of convicted felons, it gives law enforcement another hand in controlling and regulating the lives of these criminals.

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Gov "controlling and regulating" is a bad thing when it comes to people . Especially when they can make what they want for laws that could make YOU one of those "criminals/felons" . (see patriot act etc)

This wouldn't even be a subject if real criminals were handed justice the way they should be . Why would we let murderers/rapists/child molesters out of jail to begin with? If you are not incarcerated , then you are a free man , and being a "free man" entitles you to ALL the rights afforded to each citizen . When people are saying that criminals are just committing crimes again once released just proves that they should not have been released back into society in the first place and that whatever laws are on the books don't mean anything to them in the first place . Denying freed men rights is treating a symptom rather than the cause .

For non-violent crimes I say NO. For violent crimes - Yes they should be prohibited. I would include, in the prohibition, those felonies where a gun or weapon was used as a threat even though violence was not committed on a person.

Even we might believe that the laws are not correct or unjust, we must go from where we are, and not from where we wish we were.

Jerry

I'm with Rego. For those who think felons shouldn't be allowed to own firearms, should people like Duane Chapman (Dog the Bounty Hunter) not be allowed to own firearms as well? People can change. In fact, some people aren't guilty in the first place, but are convicted anyway. And come to think of it, some people who have defended themselves morally and legally with a firearm have been convicted anyway because of aggressive prosecution, among other reasons. Should such people be barred from owning firearms for the rest of their lives? No, I don't think so.

And that's ignoring the precedent that it would set or continue to perpetuate. "Slaves shouldn't own firearms." "Felons shouldn't own firearms." "People who break the law shouldn't own firearms." "Ordinary citizens shouldn't own firearms." Excuses- all excuses to perpetuate gun control, no matter how you look at it.

TwitchALot said:

Excuses- all excuses to perpetuate gun control, no matter how you look at it.

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Exactly. Except I'd put the non-politically correct handle on it - It's nothing less than DISARMAMENT.

Woody

Those of us who are armed stand in the way of something terrible. I don't know what it is, but it is damned scared of us. Let's keep the fear in its heart, not ours. B.E. Wood