How Much Training is "Enough"?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jeff White has provided the most appropriate response to this question and deviation from this is a recipe for litigation. In essence you must identify the firearms training requirements for the State or Jurisdiction your armed security personnel will be operating in. Using that and its qualification requirements as a model you then tailor your training to best suit your needs in order to best achieve your training goals.

Some State’s will have very clearly defined requirements regarding firearms training and qualification armed for security guards others will be a little ambiguous leaving how you train to you so long as a documented qualification course is fired. Clearly too little training leaves you in a poor position just as training beyond the scope of requirements can also do. Proper documentation and good lesson plans can substantiate additional training but nothing will protect you from a failure to meet minimum standards.


Creekwalker
 
Jeff White has provided the most appropriate response to this question and deviation from this is a recipe for litigation. In essence you must identify the firearms training requirements for the State or Jurisdiction your armed security personnel will be operating in.

The problem we have here is two different sets of risk factors regarding exposure to liability. Law enforcement and security personnel have a far higher likelihood of winding up in court from their use of force than folks not in those professions simply because that's what they do for a living. It really doesn't matter if the force employed is a firearm (deadly force) or other means (apprehension techniques, Taser, OC, etc.), training and qualification is going to be a subject of scrutiny in court. The more the training is quantified and documented, the better.

I agree with Rob, however, that the training shouldn't be geared toward those requirements simply because of a fear of litigation. A good trainer will recognize the different sets of requirements and hopefully tailor the presentation to the circumstances. Like I said, we follow the state mandated training for documentary purposes and then get other training from reliable sources. For those not in law enforcement or security, it isn't as much of a problem.
 
Individuals are annoyingly individual.:uhoh:

From a firearms/defensive knife/H2H instructors point of view, I would not think to consider them individually annoying. Thats an interesting mindset for a trainer, whose livlihood relies on the individual, to admit to.

ITFTS classes sets a minimum number of skills that will be covered, and does not move on to another skill until every student has a full grasp of that skill. If a student is having trouble getting it, that student is worked with until he can perform to the standard I require. The other students get to practice the skill in the meantime, they just get more trigger time on that skill.

It's been mentioned often in reviews of the ITFTS training, but it bears repeating----no student is left behind or made to feel they are holding up the class in anyway.

Each brings their own unique strengths to the training based on experience and background. No two will be identical in skills before the class, but everyone will have the same skills by the end of the course.

We'll cover as many skills as we can in the time we have with the students, but no one has not been able to meet what I consider is reasonable [ in number of skills ] to obtain in the time alotted. We'll likely cover more, but we'll not cover less, and thats never been a problem to date.

I've had new students to firearms/neopytes who've never shot, shoot as well as 20 yr veterans with firearms after two days on the skills we cover. None of them have been "annoyingly individual", but they all have been individual.

Brownie
 
QUOTE :We as practitioners, trainers, and/or professionals might rightfully seek constant improvement in our knowledge and techniques, but this is not the course that most people are going to follow. There is a big difference between people who want to be there and people who have to be there.

All training should be designed around the available resources and the desired end state. There is a limit to how much can get crammed into a 20 hour block, and still be educational - it is not the amount of material you expose them too, but the amount that they absorb.

Very well said!
 
QUOTE :We as practitioners, trainers, and/or professionals might rightfully seek constant improvement in our knowledge and techniques, but this is not the course that most people are going to follow. There is a big difference between people who want to be there and people who have to be there.

All training should be designed around the available resources and the desired end state. There is a limit to how much can get crammed into a 20 hour block, and still be educational - it is not the amount of material you expose them too, but the amount that they absorb.

Very well said!

Most states have training requirments for armed private security personnel, CCW holders, and cops.

There is probably a specific cirriculum that you have to follow, possibly specified practice drills, and almost certainly some sort of qualification course to be fired at the end to demonstrate some kind of proficiency.

[I taught 750+ students at the local regional police academy from 1988 to 1998 and did a little bit of training for private security officers from 1998 to 2002. (In Wisconsin, the cirriculum is identical, except that there is no requirment for security officers to receive familiarization with shotguns or rifles)

We had a specified lesson plan that we had to work off of. (Which actually wasn't too bad). Oddly enough, they eliminated the requirement for a specific qualification course, informally recommending that deputies/officers/agents just shoot their own agencies qual course at the end of training. When you have 25 or 30 recruits from 8 different agencies in the class, that just doesn't work very well . . . ]

Your focus has to be on teaching any material that's mandated. It's worth pondering the question of what additional skills you might try to teach, should you have a smaller or more proficient group than usual, keeping in mind that there is a limit on how much information a person at the basic level can absorb. (I have often been accused of trying to cram too much information into too little time.) Students with some degree of relevant training or life experience will (usually) start at a higher level, advance further, and retain more because we learn through repetition.

And with some people, all the reps in the world aren't going to help. They just shouldn't be armed in public . . .
 
"no student is left behind or made to feel they are holding up the class in anyway."

I would argue that you are making the top 30% suffer for the bottom 30%. In this industry I continue to be amazed at the people who come to class to show me what they know, rather than the other way around. The time I spend trying to convince them is time I am not teaching the students who came to learn.

"Hi welcome to Calculus, since Billy in the back is still counting on his fingers and toes, we are going to cover basic math." Classes frequently get people who have signed up for something that is just beyond their skill set, and I don't have time to teach them the pre-requisites they were supposed to show up with.
 
Brownie,

:confused:

That was pretty close to a snipe... obviously, that was a sarcastic comment:

Individuals are annoyingly individual.

Is not at all something that I lament... my point was that anyone who wants to set objective standards is going to be annoyed when they confront the reality of individuals and their dramatically different skill sets, contexts and abilities.


Sorry that had to be clarified.....

*********


Is this thread is only supposed to be addressing training people to a standard set by some agency/entity or is the question in the title a stand alone inquiry? I thought the latter. If the former, then there isn't much of a question, teach to the standard dictated by the state and sleep well. Otherwise, I remain confused with all the "court-safe" concerns. Someone post a list of all the instructors called into court to defend their curriculum over the last 10 years... 20 years.... 30 years.....


Teach to your integrity level. Be professional. Make your students better able to defend themselves. Sleep well. Be prepared to articulate your principles and the basis for your teaching based on your beliefs, instruction, experience, research and observations without having to rely on others' standards or you may as well let others do the training.
 
Rob,

It may have been better to use one of the emoticons like :rolleyes: and then ;) to express the sarcasm in that earlier post. It wasn't that obvious to me, hence my response, so other members might have taken it in the same light. I was more than a little surprised when I read that thought process [ Individuals are annoyingly individual. ] as a stand alone statement.

I've read the thread as a stand alone question myself, though the mindset of agency/entity has entered into the responses here by some.

Brownie
 
When we speak of standards, who's standards are we speaking about?

And, do these standards address what the individual is likely to face or geared towards or another person's/entity's potential liability?

To many over look the law when it comes to shooting classes. The student has to have a clear understanding of the law and when it is appropriate and justifiable to use their weapon as well as the ability to use it. Urban legend can be a very dangerous animal if left unchecked in a person's mind. However, I believe that we needlessly cry the liability wolf is coming to the point where is it counter productive. We need to instruct the student on what they can do under the law not a class of don't do this or the lawyers are going to skin you at the stake. We do not want to teach hesitation but action within the scope of the law.

The problem I see with training is everyone wants to live a fantasy of being a high speed low drag operator to the point where what works is pushed aside for what looks cool. Never forget Murphy's law and it has alway come back to humble me when I have traded what worked for what looks cool.

To be honest it doesn't take all that much to learn the techniques and the basics on how to defend yourself. It is the constant practice to increase my speed and push myself to a sub conscious competence (the ability to perform a action without having to think about it or the steps involved...it just happens automatically) which eats up a lot of my training time.

I believe that a well rounded class based on the building block approach is what works. Basic techniques build into advanced once and with the concepts that go along with the techniques. The student has to have the ability to digest the material you are providing them and like Matt pointed out each group of student with have it own dynamic personality and the speed they will move forward and retain.

What I've found the hardest in being a instructor is I can teach the student everything that I know but when it comes down to it the student must have the ability to make judgment call under stress and make the appropriate decision on how to handle the situation. It is not the students shooting abilities that most often fails the student at the moment of truth but their judgment skills.

The question should be are you happy with your current skill level and are confident with your abilities or are you always learning and working to become better. There are people that are looking for different levels of competence.

In closing, do not fall prey when it comes to what the experts say can be or cannot be done but allow your abilities set the limit for what you can accomplish.
 
Last edited:
Throwing out everything about testifying in court or meeting some requirement set out by some other person, I'd like to ask if you don't train to any standard, how do you measure if you are an effective trainer?

Without any quantifiable standard as to what you intend your students to learn, how do you know if you are actually teaching them? And how do you measure your own performance? How do you evaluate your POI?

Jeff
 
not to get all semantic on you guys, but maybe there's a difference in measuring to a standard and training to a standard.

like "teaching to a test" vs "educating and then measuring with tests" with more mundane subjects like algebra and grammar.

obviously, standards have value, not so much because I might run the MEUSOC course of fire, or one of Cooper's challenges in an actual combat scenario, but because they allow me to compare my level of skill to others, and to myself, as i progress.
 
You have to use your mind and come up with the necessary skills sets necessary to accomplish the mission. You then teach it and test these skills in a realistic manner. To set a standard to do "X" such as shooting is not that hard however it becomes difficult when you test a person's judgment skills because there are more then one right answer.

All the standards in the world will do you no good if they do not build the skill sets necessary to succeed. As a instructor you must watch for hidden agendas, appropriate/wrong/missing skills being taught or LCD type of thinking when dealing with standards.

The real problem these days is what skill sets are absolutely necessary to accomplish the goal and where to set the bar. For each type of mission/individual these will be different.

As trainers we provide the path for the student to follow but the hard is on the student to master the material taught for those that strive to be better will push themselves past and standard you can come up with.
 
I'd like to ask if you don't train to any standard, how do you measure if you are an effective trainer?

As I've stated a few times, the measure is individual student improvement.

Training to an objective standard could be a crutch for an instructor who isn't comfortable with that kind of responsibility. Notice that I said "could be".... if you've been in the military or LE, we've all had that instructor... the one who reads the power point presentation off the wall and then hands out a test that someone else wrote and has to use an answer key to give you a grade. Guess what, he's probably not an instructor, educator, teacher, etc. at least not in that case.

Recognizing what each student needs and is capable of and then helping them get to their potential is what an instructor should be doing. That is a subjective standard of individual improvement. You can't prepare the details of that process in a "Step 1, Step 2, Step 3" situation, you have to be willing and ready to accommodate them on the spot.

See this great thread for some related ideas:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9139


**********
(Brownie, I see your point, I edited the original line to add the appropriate emoticon. ;) )

*******

Taliv,

The idea that comparing your performance on those types of drills to performance of others gives you any real measure of your ability to defend yourself is questionable... again, it could just be clever marketing or a static competition exercise that keeps those things going. I use a drill with steel targets at the end of a lot of training days to get everyone's blood pressure up, but its not a high value training exercise in and of itself.
The comparison against your own performance to show improvement, or much more importantly to give you a more accurate gauge of your skills under that specific condition, is more valid. But, keep in mind that the more you rehearse a pattern of skills the better you will become at them and the more comfortable you will be with the concept. Something like an El Presidente drill has a learning curve just to get through the process smoothly. Unfortunately, once you are comfortable with the drill, it loses a lot of the value from a real dynamic critical incident perspective. The first time you run it, it tells you something about your ability to shoot while trying to keep your mind on the complicated drill.... pretty good as a preparation for shooting during a confusing and scary moment.... but once you've memorized and rehearsed the drill several times, the isolated value of your mechanical ability to shoot an already known pattern of shots & targets isn't nearly as interesting.
 
Training to an objective standard could be a crutch for an instructor who isn't comfortable with that kind of responsibility.

I must disagree. You must have a standard or you don't know where you started from, where you are going or even if you are the right track to get there.

Recognizing what each student needs and is capable of and then helping them get to their potential is what an instructor should be doing.

And how do you assess what the student needs? Pretest? Accepting some kind of documentation from someone certifying a basic level of competency?

I would say there is no way to accept any kind of documentation of anyone's competency at any level. The student may have been the gray man in the course that earned him his credentials, he may not have learned anything and those credentials might not be worth the paper they are printed.

I'm not sure a pretest is appropriate in a civilian setting, because you can't expect someone to pay for a class and travel to it's location only not to be able to get in because they can't pass the pretest. You have to make a quick assessment of the skills your students bring to class.

I start with some basic exercises. In a carbine/patrol rifle class I can usually tell before we finish zeroing who's going to have problems.

That is a subjective standard of individual improvement.

Without standards how do you tell when they've mastered that particular task to the level they can sustain that skill with practice and it's time to move on to the next task? I say that if you have a set program that moves from one task to another based on time instead of how your students are doing, you are not training as effectively as you can. You can't hold the class up for one person, yet if you've organized your POI so that the skill sets build on each other and you move on to the next task based on time rather then on the students ability to perform the previous task, then every task past that point won't be trained as well as it could be.

You can't prepare the details of that process in a "Step 1, Step 2, Step 3" situation, you have to be willing and ready to accommodate them on the spot.


I maintain that you can't prepare the details of that process without going through a step 1, step 2, step 3 process. You have to know where you are, where you are going and how to get there.

There is a lot in force on force training that seems to be subjective. But if you sit down and break down all the little nitnoid details of what actually goes into a force on force task, be it an individual or collective task, you can come up all of the little steps. Those steps will also help you diagnose problems your students are having. It's a lot easier to "accommodate them on the spot" if you can tell them exactly what they missed. Although in force on force training, it's a better learning experience to have them the students tell you what they are doing wrong through a properly conducted AAR.

Breaking tasks down into subtasks and writing it all out is a lot of work. But you get more training value for your time with that approach then you will with just observing with no reference of what you should be observing for the task to be performed correctly. There are a lot of tasks, especially in force on force training, that are too complicated to keep in your head.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. I say that every task you train on has a standard. The conditions may vary, and that may make the task more difficult, but the standard remains.

Jeff
 
One some points, we may have to do that. Meanwhile, although I think they were addressed above, I have several Instructor Development courses on the schedule over the next 6 months to help with these questions or if you want to explore them further:

Quote:
Training to an objective standard could be a crutch for an instructor who isn't comfortable with that kind of responsibility.

I must disagree. You must have a standard or you don't know where you started from, where you are going or even if you are the right track to get there.

Quote:
Recognizing what each student needs and is capable of and then helping them get to their potential is what an instructor should be doing.

And how do you assess what the student needs? Pretest? Accepting some kind of documentation from someone certifying a basic level of competency?

As an instructor, you have to be able to constantly evaluate your students and see if they're improving.
Feedback from students comes in more than one form and shouldn't just be collected at the end of the course. it is constant and probably the most important thing to an instructor who is doing more than just administrating the delivery of someone else's information.

I guess part of this is also dependent upon the type of student that you have. If someone just wants to "qualify" or get a CCW permit and get some boxes checked off, you probably don't need to push them to satisfy them. Students that really are looking to improve personally and not just experience a course are going to be frustrated by a cookie-cutter class unless they happen to be the exact shape of the cookie the instructor wants to bake.

Except for the safety blanket of objective tests that universally apply, I think we're a lot closer than the end of your last post makes it seem. Reading through the things you say after you quote me, a lot of them resemble points I've made earlier... for example, you say:
You have to know where you are, where you are going and how to get there.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, it has nothing to do with teaching point by point, it simply means being aware of what's going on and capable of taking the student further.


-RJP
 
The idea that comparing your performance on those types of drills to performance of others gives you any real measure of your ability to defend yourself is questionable... again, it could just be clever marketing or a static competition exercise that keeps those things going. I use a drill with steel targets at the end of a lot of training days to get everyone's blood pressure up, but its not a high value training exercise in and of itself.
The comparison against your own performance to show improvement, or much more importantly to give you a more accurate gauge of your skills under that specific condition, is more valid. But, keep in mind that the more you rehearse a pattern of skills the better you will become at them and the more comfortable you will be with the concept. Something like an El Presidente drill has a learning curve just to get through the process smoothly. Unfortunately, once you are comfortable with the drill, it loses a lot of the value from a real dynamic critical incident perspective. The first time you run it, it tells you something about your ability to shoot while trying to keep your mind on the complicated drill.... pretty good as a preparation for shooting during a confusing and scary moment.... but once you've memorized and rehearsed the drill several times, the isolated value of your mechanical ability to shoot an already known pattern of shots & targets isn't nearly as interesting.

yep, i totally concur. that's why the drills i practice are always very short. never more than about "2 moves" or 3 shots. i enjoy doing things like box drills in carbine classes, but i don't do them on my own time. my focus is starting from low-ready and putting 1-3 rnds on a target or two as fast as i possibly can from various positions.

granted, that's not a "standard", but some standards are made up of a series of several small drills, which individually have a ton of value, imho.

as far as comparing yourself to others, i recognize that "you can learn a lot from a dummy" as the saying goes, but I'd prefer to learn from someone who's beating the crap out of me on the timer. :)
 
As an instructor, you have to be able to constantly evaluate your students and see if they're improving.

Another thing that you have to do is give them things that are simple and clear enough to remember and practice after they've taken the class. It's something all my instructors have emphasized. What you do in the class isn't necessarily the most important part of the training. It's that portion of the class that you can take home and make your own through repetition. Again we have that dirty word, "basics". :D

Train them how to train.
 
When I took the armed guard training in Illinois back in 1979, it was 30 hours. Much of it was centered around the law, first aid, and other non-weapons related stuff. Maybe 3-5 hours had something to do with firearms. One guy who took the class spent almost the entire time sleeping in the back of the room.

I was left wanting more and took an advanced weapons course that covered use of baton, cuffs and so forth. One thing I always remembered was the instructor (a Cook County correctional officer) said we should never ever try to cuff anyone by ourselves, as the cuffs can rapidly become very dangerous weapons, and it is virtually impossible to learn to safely cuff someone without a lot of supervised practice that we were not going to get.

I didn't think a lot about it back then, but nowadays, I think the training standards for armed guards are woefully low. I am not advocating the state require additional training, since the low level of training has not really proven to be much of a problem. But, one would think those in the trade would want to be better trained.

I have been out of the guard business since 1982, but AFAIK, my guard training is still good, and I could go back to work as an armed guard with no additional training, not even a refresher course.
 
SAc,

That is too true. When I was down at SWAT Round Up a couple of weeks ago, one of the overwhelmingly popular pieces of student feedback was that they could take the drills from the carbine class back to their teams.

I get a lot of "yeah, you've got Valhalla's ranges, you can train *****", so I spend a fair amount of time showing students how to be more realistic and even simulate 360 degree environments on a standard square range.

-RJP
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top