All cops aren't big mean ogres that eat your civil liberties!

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The Wiry Irishman

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So I was hanging out with my state trooper friend last night, and among some of interesting police work / shooting / military (he's also an Army medic getting deployed to Iraq for the second time in a couple weeks, which combined with being a cop I think is pulling more than his fair share for America) talk, he said this:

"You have to realize that as a cop, every time I do something I could be walking into an ambush. About the only people I don't worry about are CHP holders, because you know they're aren't going to do anything after going through all that paperwork"

He also wondered why anyone wouldn't want to get a CHP, and made some funny comments about it being difficult reconciling his libertarian views with his job.

See, cops can be people, too!
 
At least he is thinking along the right lines. I have heard similar comments form Texas people though I can't remember if they were officers. Of course, in Texas they recently changed the laws so that any law abiding citizen can have a gun in the car.
 
Funny you should post this now. I just finished typing this on bayoushooter.com:

LouisianaCarry said:
Ok, yall may have figured out that I am a libertarian. Taking that to it's fullest extent (which I do), I could be more precisely described as an anarcho-capitalist. What that means is that I do not believe in the morality of the coercive government State. I do believe in the wisdom of police, just not in the system that they are currently a part of. I say that to say that if you were to meet someone with well thought out resources and arguments about why people- as individuals- are the only ones with the ultimate responsibility for their own safety, it is me.

That said, I do not bash cops. I can see why people do, and I can also see why cops get fed up with stupid people (especially criminals). Both sides have an element to be ashamed of, and both sides have many who are acting responsibly. While I am morally/philosophically opposed to what is becoming (not saying it is already) a police State, I respect the men and women who do their job and enforce good laws. I let go a helper (who I might otherwise have kept) because I heard him bash cops. I would like to see this forum not generalize either side. I hate hearing officers bashing citizens in general, and I hate hearing citizens bash cops in general.

What I am saying is that we SHOULD, as American citizens, keep a close eye on those who we entrust with the awesome responsibility (and temptation) of police powers. We should not give anyone a free pass because of a uniform, just like people should not assume someone is a criminal because they carry a gun. OTOH, we should recognize that they are doing a hard job, and not be too quick to judge until we walk in their shoes.

There should not be a thin blue line- we should all be citizens who are ALL willing to stand up for our neighbor and the rule of law. I will risk my life for others, and I do not need a badge to do it. Our country would be better if we were all willing to do so. I don't blame cops for being frustrated when most of the citizenry is willing to watch dumbfounded as our neighbor gets robbed. OTOH, I don't blame people for getting frustrated with cops, when they see people getting harassed and charged for legally carrying a gun (just happened in BR last month to a member here).

We all just need to take a step back and use righteous discernment, treating other people as deserving of our respect until proven otherwise.
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...and made some funny comments about it being difficult reconciling his libertarian views with his job.
Click to expand...

I seriously considered being a cop, and for a very long time, but I had to put it down as I became increasingly libertarian. It's really a shame that government service and libertarianism are irreconcilable to the extent that they are. :(
 
I might be lucky, but 95% of the LEOs I know are genuinely good people, with tough jobs. I feel that they are in as much danger daily as I am when I deploy. I also think that they are under a microscope compared to my overseas work. In regards to the gentleman the Irishman reffered to a "pulling double duty"... amen.
 
Funny, here in Colorado many sheriff's depts add CCW holders to the same database as criminals, which LEO's can check (but aren't supposed to) during stops.
 
I was on MSN with a family friend, he's a LEO at the Moscow ID PD... he's a pretty laid back guy. We're trying to figure out where we can all get together and do some shooting etc...

My wife's uncle is retired RCMP, he's a pretty laid back guy as well...

Yep.. just regular guys...
 
GCO said;
Funny, here in Colorado many sheriff's depts add CCW holders to the same database as criminals, which LEO's can check (but aren't supposed to) during stops.
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Is there a law in Colorado that forbids an officer to check wants and warrants on someone he encounters?

Jeff
 
What would your police officer friend, or any police officer for that matter, do if he stopped someone (with an otherwise clean background) that had a firearm on their person without a "permit?"
 
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Funny, here in Colorado many sheriff's depts add CCW holders to the same database as criminals, which LEO's can check (but aren't supposed to) during stops.
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What difference does it make?
 
I don't worry about are CHP holders, because you know they're aren't going to do anything after going through all that paperwork.
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I got a chuckle from that quote.

"C'mon man, just shoot the lock!"

"Are you friggin' kidding me? Do you have any idea how much paperwork I went through to get this thing?! There is no way I am going to risk losing it for something like that!"

"Aww c'mon man just...oh wait, here's the key. Nevermind."
 
GCO said;

Quote:
Funny, here in Colorado many sheriff's depts add CCW holders to the same database as criminals, which LEO's can check (but aren't supposed to) during stops.

Is there a law in Colorado that forbids an officer to check wants and warrants on someone he encounters?

Jeff
Click to expand...

Those are two entirely different things.
 
I worked some LEOs in the Nat.Guard and you are right all cops aren't ogres. When in Army uniform they laugh, joke, complain, and avoid details just like any other joe, but a few turn into Judge Dred the instant they put on their PD uniform.

I almost forgot to add that in the time I have spent in the Nat.Guard I've noticed a good percent of Guardsmen have jobs in LE. One non-LE Guardsman commented that the LE joes don't have to be depolyed because of their job. I set him straight that I have never seen or heard of any LE Guardsman ever getting out of a depolyment or even asking to because of his job. It's kind of hard for people to imagine a Police officer going from his civilan job where he might be shot at to a depolyed Guardsman where he is problably going to be shot at.(or blown up, or beheaded if captured....)
 
Quote:
GCO said;

Quote:
Funny, here in Colorado many sheriff's depts add CCW holders to the same database as criminals, which LEO's can check (but aren't supposed to) during stops.

Is there a law in Colorado that forbids an officer to check wants and warrants on someone he encounters?

Jeff

Those are two entirely different things.
Click to expand...

One day I met a LEO friend of mine for "lunch" during his lunch break. He's with a Denver Area PD. While we were shooting the breeze and he was showing me toys in his vehicle, for fun I had him run my drivers license.

He did not know I had a CCW until afterward when I took the license out and handed it to him. His gizmos did not tell him I had a CCW.

My CCW is issued by Douglas County, CO. He works for a different jurisdiction.

I used to belive that there would be a flashing red screen that showed up on their computer if I got pulled over. Now I'm no longer worried - maybe it's a Douglas County thing... I would say if your Sherrif's dept adds your name to a criminal database, thats messed up. I thought it was akward that I was fingerprinted through the same process as child molestors. Of course, real estate agents, liquor license holders, etc get fingerprinted on the same machine so I don't feel quite so tainted :)

I wouldn't worry about your CO CCW unless you have a major anti sherrif.
 
Yep. I know of an instance here in Colorado where an individual who is a CCW was pulled over by the PD, and told the officer that he had a concealed carry permit and a firearm. Next thing he and his passengers knew they were face down on the ground, at gunpoint, handcuffed and sprawled out. The Sgt. was dispatched to the scene and told the officer that it was legal to carry concealed here, and that what the driver did was exactly what he was supposed to do when stopped by John Q. Law. At least the driver didn't get his traffic ticket after this humiliation.

Cops are not your friend, as inherently they believe themselves to be better than you and that they are the only ones who should be armed. The militarization of the police departments in this country is an alarming trend, and one which I think should be reversed. To believe that the cops are here to help you is just plain naive. Generally speaking the cop today was the bully in high school, who lives by intimidation and ridicule. These are not generally good quality people. This is not to say that they are ALL bad people, but their job is not to guarantee your rights, their job is to root out crime and capture criminals. The reasons most of them get into this line of work is because they get the same emotional gratification they got when they were bullying you in high school or elsewhere. If they suspect that you are a criminal, they will do whatever they deem necessary to "get you."

The reason I carry CCW is because a cop is too heavy and won't fit in my holster. They should arrive when they do, take their report, and leave. My self defense is a matter as important to me as theirs is to them. But they don't see it that way.

Their job is to skirt your rights, they train on it and they believe in it. If you are interested in some of the tactics or tricks they employ, look up the annotations at 42 USC 1983 and get an eyeful. There are volumes and pages of cases where the cops violated somone's federal constitutional rights in there. If you think that some cops won't warp the truth to "get you," again you are naive.
 
Yep. I know of an instance here in the Springs where an individual who is a CCW was pulled over by the PD, and told the officer that he had a concealed carry permit and a firearm. Next thing he and his passengers knew they were face down on the ground, at gunpoint, handcuffed and sprawled out. The Sgt. was dispatched to the scene and told the officer that it was legal to carry concealed here, and that what the driver did was exactly what he was supposed to do when stopped by John Q. Law.
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There are bad/poor cops in most departments. There are bad/poor doctors, nurses, lawyers, teachers, waiters, judges, husbands and wives. The cop was dead wrong. Tthe sergent corrected the situation and, hopefully, the officer was sent off to a remedial course on the law and his place in it.

The VAST majority of "street" cops which I have delt with are good, hard working people who are supportive of the 2nd Amd and CCW. Yes, I have run into the "Judge Dred" types. One Conn cop once told me (after asking about Wyo CCW laws) that while Conn has CCW and Open Carry laws that he would arrest anyone with a CCW who was carring openly! :what: A Colo cop once tried to arrest me for carring "drug paraphalia" in my vehicle. It took a Lt whom I knew to get him to realise that a Nurse/Paramedic SHOULD be carrying that stuff and that he was being stupid. :cuss: Most of my encounters with LEOs have been more along the lines of, "So, you really like the Kimber?" The usual comment of my having a CCW is "Good to have you around." :cool:
 
Yep. I know of an instance here in Colorado where an individual who is a CCW was pulled over by the PD, and told the officer that he had a concealed carry permit and a firearm. Next thing he and his passengers knew they were face down on the ground, at gunpoint, handcuffed and sprawled out. The Sgt. was dispatched to the scene and told the officer that it was legal to carry concealed here, and that what the driver did was exactly what he was supposed to do when stopped by John Q. Law. At least the driver didn't get his traffic ticket after this humiliation.
Click to expand...
If true, this is a case where serious disciplinary action, like 30 days off w/o pay should have been the result. But as we know, there is rarely any consequence for these kinds of misdeeds.

Cops are not your friend, as inherently they believe themselves to be better than you and that they are the only ones who should be armed. The militarization of the police departments in this country is an alarming trend, and one which I think should be reversed. To believe that the cops are here to help you is just plain naive. Generally speaking the cop today was the bully in high school, who lives by intimidation and ridicule. These are not generally good quality people. This is not to say that they are ALL bad people, but their job is not to guarantee your rights, their job is to root out crime and capture criminals. The reasons most of them get into this line of work is because they get the same emotional gratification they got when they were bullying you in high school or elsewhere. If they suspect that you are a criminal, they will do whatever they deem necessary to "get you."
Click to expand...
They are not your friend but they are not inherently your enemy either. I am sure a few cops were the bully in school, but so what? School bullies need jobs too, and as long as they behave themselves, it does not matter much. As for the quality of the people who become cops, I suspect they mostly tend to represent a cross section of society, from good to mediocre. The really awful ones get weeded out by the selection process.

The reason I carry CCW is because a cop is too heavy and won't fit in my holster. They should arrive when they do, take their report, and leave. My self defense is a matter as important to me as theirs is to them. But they don't see it that way.
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It is very rare that there is a cop there to prevent a crime. Mostly they do show up after the fact. Just the way things are.

Their job is to skirt your rights, they train on it and they believe in it. If you are interested in some of the tactics or tricks they employ, look up the annotations at 42 USC 1983 and get an eyeful. There are volumes and pages of cases where the cops violated somone's federal constitutional rights in there. If you think that some cops won't warp the truth to "get you," again you are naive.
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I think they do what they are allowed to do by their bosses, which is driven by the courts and what the political system allows. You should be more pi$$ed at the politicians since they have the capability to deal with such problems as they arise, and they have almost completely failed us on that point. The only real protection we seem to have on that issue is that most cops are pretty decent human beings. When you run across one who isn't, you are mostly just out of luck.
 
I might be lucky, but 95% of the LEOs I know are genuinely good people, with tough jobs.
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It's probably more like 99% and that number is still way, way too low.

Cops are like Doctors. You interact with a bad one and your life can be irreperably damaged. And all it takes is one - just one.

QA for cops means oversight. Real civilian oversight, totally seperate and independent of any cop authority. If a bad cop is found discipline should be handed out by the oversight authority and not the cops. In any case where it is determined that a citizen's civil rights were violated the corrective action should be termination - no if's and or buts about it and in extreme cases criminal charges brought against the cop.

If every PD had an oversight authority it seems unlikely to me that PD's like in Chicago could exist for long.
 
Quote:
I might be lucky, but 95% of the LEOs I know are genuinely good people, with tough jobs.

It's probably more like 99% and that number is still way, way too low.

Cops are like Doctors. You interact with a bad one and your life can be irreperably damaged. And all it takes is one - just one.

QA for cops means oversight. Real civilian oversight, totally seperate and independent of any cop authority. If a bad cop is found discipline should be handed out by the oversight authority and not the cops. In any case where it is determined that a citizen's civil rights were violated the corrective action should be termination - no if's and or buts about it and in extreme cases criminal charges brought against the cop.

If every PD had an oversight authority it seems unlikely to me that PD's like in Chicago could exist for long.



how you figure on getting rid of the unions?> they would never let it happen
 
I seriously considered being a cop, and for a very long time, but I had to put it down as I became increasingly libertarian.
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I considered volunteering for reserve deputy (I am already a volunteer firefighter) but decided against it because I could not in good conscience enforce drug laws. :(

My view is that there are way too many laws and most cops are paid way too little for the work that they do. The latter generally results in only people who either have really good motives (like serving their community) or really bad motives (power & control) applying to become officers/deputies.
 
Oh come on... LEOs are just like everyone else. There's good ones, bad ones, and everything in between. They're not stamped out by a machine. They're just people.
 
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