overkill and ethical hunting?

SpeedAKL

BOL@#*KS!
Tell them if it ain't a .54 patched round ball from a flintlock it ain't "ethical" as it's too much of an "advantage" to take game with fixed ammo from a breech loader.

Seriously, The previous folks are correct. As long as you're accurate and hit the heart/lungs as Springmom wrote, or hit the spine via the throat or hit the brain, that's humane. The ethics comes in as long as you're a safe shooter, don't illegally take game, or leave the meat behind to rot. Damage the meat with a .30-06? Again as she and others wrote, a properly placed shot (be it .223 or .458 or in between) doesn't destroy what you're going to harvest and eat.

What your college friends have is a problem with aesthetics NOT ethics. As long as you're a safe hunter by identifying your target, the animal is harvested by legal means, and the harvest isn't wasted..., the rest is what they feel is the better way.

I prefer to use a flintlock as I find it more rewarding, but you'd be welcome with your bolt-gun with me during regular deer season. I hunted down in Woodstock VA a few weeks ago and was successful. My personal experience is that a scoped, rifle (mine is a .308) is too "easy" where I currently hunt but that's just me. Were I to hunt where the deer scarse and in wide open spaces, you bet I'd go back to my bolt-gun.

IF they won't "let you" use whatever, then it sounds like you're depending on them to take you hunting. I will paraphrase one of the first replies..., get new deer hunting buddies.

LD

Personally, I don't think you can ever have "too much" gun when hunting.

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+10,000

No animal ever was lost because you shot it with a firearm that was TOO powerful.

I've never heard anyone before claim that WOUNDING an animal was "sporting". Sounds like an anti-gunner complaining that a .45acp doesn't give a home invader a "fair" chance.

No animal ever was lost because you shot it with a firearm that was TOO powerful.

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Sure it has. I've seen several people shooting something way too powerful wound animals that ran away, never to be seen again. Any rifle will kill an animal if you hit it where you should. Lots of people shoot too powerful rifles badly because they're afraid of them.

The calibers they are using are .243 and shotguns

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Next your going to say they use buckshot....Looks like another example that crack doesn't smoke itself.

No animal ever was lost because you shot it with a firearm that was TOO powerful.

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Sure it has. I've seen several people shooting something way too powerful wound animals that ran away, never to be seen again. Any rifle will kill an animal if you hit it where you should. Lots of people shoot too powerful rifles badly because they're afraid of them.

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Please explain the causal mechanism in play that doesn't apply to any firearm.

Please also define "too powerful". The original subject was deer hunting. I doubt there are many people hunting whitetails with a .700 Nitro Express.

Hunting isn't like shooting an across the course match. Of course plenty of people have and continue to shoot across the course with .30-06 rifles. That's not exactly a 13mm Mauser.

I don't demand that people shoot .30-06s for deer hunting, much less a .50-110 Sharps. However, to portray the .30-06 as some kind of brutal mankiller on the shooter end is kind of foolish.

My first hunting trip that didn't involve North Koreans in the DMZ took place a couple of weeks or so ago. Instead, I've shot a lot of 600 yard NRA long range with a .30-06 loaded with 200gr. Sierras over a stiff charge IMR-4350. I'm a short, stocky guy who's never been mistaken for Sonny Barger. If I can take 20-100 of those at a time, I think the average person (including women) can take 5-10 150-165gr. .30-06s a YEAR.

If their ethics prohibit them from shooting a round that the hunter is comfortable with then there are other problems that are not being talked about. If they are so worried about hurting an animal, then they should become vegitarians. I hope they don't eat beef or pork. They would be shocked to know how some ranchers kill them (I know growing in a family that owned a large ranch full of hogs and cows). Maybe they can just sweet talk them wild animals into giving up, and kill them with carbon monoxide (or talk them to death). Sorry I have to agree with 99% of the people here who say dead is dead. Yes, don't wound the animal, but kill it clean. I hate to see one of those guys break down in tears if they accidentally mess up the first shot and have to take a second one. Will they be able to see through the sights with all those tears in their eyes? Sorry about the rant...

PC by any other name still stinks. Their "ethics" sound posed. If your relationship with these boys is important enough to you that you are willing to buy a new gun just so you can maintain it, go for it. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with using your available calibers for deer.

Please also define "too powerful". The original subject was deer hunting. I doubt there are many people hunting whitetails with a .700 Nitro Express.

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I hit a jackrabbit with a 520 grain .45-70. I can say with good confidence that it was a clean kill. Nothing unethical about it.

I define "Overkill" as squirrel hunting with an RPG. .30-06 is fine, dead is dead. I'd feel infinatley more comforatable with my .223, but mainly because I know the rifle in and out. I know what it can do and am still looking for something it can't. I've dropped a buck in his tracks with my .223 at 300yd. I've seen deer shot within 50yd with a .30-06 run and never be found. Does it have to do with the round? No, it's mostly shot placement. The average hunter won't or shouldn't take shots past 300yd, and many need to be closer. I can tell you from experience that a well placed 55gr soft point will kill a whitetail at that range, so a .223 is all you NEED. Most people will feel much more comfortable with a bigger bullet though. I'll be the first to admit the .223 isn't the ideal deer hunting round for everyone. It is for me, but if .30-06 or 7.62x54R is the ideal round for you, then don't let anyone stop you from using it.

"The only way to ruin meat is to shoot meat instead of the proper kill zone. Hams, shoulders, backstraps and tenders ain't proper kill zone hits."

Good post.

i sometimes hunt in WV. When my deer is taken to the butcher, i like to look at the deer carcasses lying outside. It is not unususal to find a deer that has been shot three or four times with a high power rifle. Some look like they were shot with 75mm pack howitzers.

The owner of the shop says that a lot of out of state hunters bring in shot to pieces deer and then whine that he stole their meat.

These are the same "hunters" who are always looking for that magic bullet that will turn their gut shot deer into a bang flop every time.

I don't believe in overkill, but the "I got me more gun than you' hunter peeves me bad. I have a friend that I won't let hunt with me because he insists on using a 7mmMag that he can barely keep on the target board and rarely puts it on the paper at 100yrds. I wouldn't mind it if he could shoot the gun, but I'm not cleaning a gut shot pig for him.

"I wouldn't mind it if he could shoot the gun, but I'm not cleaning a gut shot pig for him."

+1

My first cousin married a guy just like the one you describe. Only difference is that he hunts with an 8mm Remington Magnum. Every deer he ever got was gutshot. Most get away because he won't track them: He writes it off as a "clean miss" and won't even go to the place where the deer was shot.

My buddies in Nebraska use to hunt deer with 22-250 and .243's until we started hunting with them, hitten'em at 400 yards and putting them down one shot with our 300 mags and 30-378 weatherby's, a little over kill but no chasing them around. They have all changed to 7 mm or 300 mags.

I think that using a cheap scope that won't hold zero, a junk rifle that doesn't shoot accurately at the range in question, or an insufficient cartridge for the game, can certainly be considered inhumane and unethical.

Sometimes, that can sound "elitist", but I couldn't care less. I think you owe the animal equipment that is up to the task. It needn't be fancy or expensive, but "all I have is a .223" is no excuse for hunting elk with it, and if you know a gun is good for 6 MOA from the bench on a good day, it's unethical to use it on deer at 200 yards offhand.

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AMEN best post I have read in a while.

Your Friends are idiots.

You need new "friends" Your first responsibility is to a quick, humane kill.

What do your friends hunt with? Spears?

There is a reason F&W agencies have minimum power/caliber rules.

It's so an animal wont disapear with a minor wound and die a slow, painful scary death.

When I first looked into hunting 90% of those I asked pushed me in the 30.06 direction. I dont understand your friends sounds like you dont either. Good Luck

So I guess they knaw the bones, and tan the hides and don't waste a scrap of the animal, right?

I've been faced with the question a little differently lately and that involves killing more than I need. I love to hunt squirrels, but we've got plenty in the freezer right now. So I still hunt, but I don't shoot. I'll put the crosshairs on them, and think to myself "KRACK." (Haven't missed one that way yet. ) To me to keep killing them when I don't really need them would be "unethical." YMMV.

Some folks may think that's funny. "Why carry a gun then?" Well, I don't think it's a "hunt" unless you have the opportunity to make a kill. I recall a line from a Gene Hill story a long time ago that went something like "Sometimes the greatest pleasure in owning a gun, comes when you don't use it."

Maybe slightly off topic, but it's what I thought of when I saw the word "overkill."

Hunt with what you want to.

"So I still hunt, but I don't shoot. I'll put the crosshairs on them, and think to myself "KRACK." (Haven't missed one that way yet. ) To me to keep killing them when I don't really need them would be "unethical." YMMV."

i do the same. It is very good practice.

I'd rather have more gun than needed to ensure it will kill the animal as quick as possible than to try a weak caliber and for whatever reason miss the right spot but still hit it and it takes a while to kill it. Not to mention I like to have a powerful enough gun for bigger animals (or the two-legged kind) in case defense is necessary (against a bear, for example, as unlikely as it may be, I prefer being prepared for any such situation).

I have never overkilled anything....once I killed it it was hard as heck to kill it further...the 30-06 is a great round and will do anything reasonably asked of it with destruction.