What do you do when you've got a gun in your face?

Those that don't have the stomach for it, don't have the H2H skills, don't have the training to pull it off successfully have no business attempting the disarms.

I think I noted earlier that I let people use a 38 with blanks in it. There' a reason for that, it's DANGEROUS, you CAN and WILL get hurt if you don't have the stomach for it, don't have the H2H skills, and don't have the training to pull it off successfully every time.

The formula is not complicated unless you don't have the physical skills.

Brownie

Some of these posts are really good.

From experience...

"Hey, I'm cool... I'm cool... Go ahead, it's not worth it... Could you please drop my wallet and licenses somewhere?"

He had a S&W M10 with a lot of bluing wear near the bore...

Hey gentlemen. Great topic. I'm new to these forums and gathering as much feedback as possible. I'm about to get my concealed carry permit in Philadelphia because I know way too many people who have faced exactly this situation, and although I'm not about to get shot over my pocket cash, or credit cards I can cancel, or even a car that's fully insured, if he gets the goods and still appears threatening or erratic or downright intent on doing me grave bodily harm etc., then all bets are off and I want the ability to put him down if the opportunity presents. That said, I totally agree with those posters who advise compliance, de-escalation, and escape first. From what I've heard and read, your average jacker is looking for a quick, easy score. He has a gun, so he thinks he has the power -- he has a script in his head for how it's supposed to go down. Your role in the script is yes, sir, you're the man, here's my wallet. You throw a curve ball at him, go off script, and he's likely to get scared or pissed and shoot. Especially in Philly, where he's probably an 18 year old punk who can't handle his weapon. You draw prematurely, and maybe you get the jump (and go broke on lawyers anyway), maybe you don't (and die for the $50 you're carrying), but if it's about optimizing your chances of survival, the best bet is 100% compliance (as far as giving up the goods - I'm not talking about getting in the car with him, or being taken down an alley, etc.) because 99.9% of the time he's gonna grab the cash and take off and, hey, maybe you're pride's hurt and the BG got over on you, but your wife's not suddenly a widow either. He has to live his own shi**y life anyway. Maybe not the most macho response, but I know plenty of people who have been robbed at gunpoint and lived to tell the tale. This is just a robbery scenario, which for my CCW purposes, is the most likely. If you're hanging with the wrong crowd, or doing business with them, etc., then maybe you're more likely to just have a gun stuck in your face for personal reasons and the variables are different... For me it's about my safety, not about justice. I'll leave that to cops and courts.

I started thinking about it when I read the thread title, and came up with some ideas. Not much has changed in reading the thread.

First thing I thought of was the Krav Maga disarm - rather simple, I've tried it with some friends, and it's amazing how much that forward leverage throws you off.

Of course, what if he's got two hands on the pistol? Not going to be doing much yanking of the arm there (well, you could, but the one-handed disarm is going to be harder.)

Either way, the idea, like Brownie said, is to get off the line of the muzzle. I just don't like firearms pointed at me, period, never mind by someone who doesn't value my life. Take control of the weapon. Even if you can't disarm, step off the line an get a hold on it. Step in and to the left, get the right hand on it. If it's an auto, rack the slide; an SA revo, grab the hammer. DA/DAO revo, grab the cylinder. Whatever you can to keep that gun from firing (because you're out of the muzzle line, doesn't mean other people aren't).
Of course, he's got two hands on the gun, which means he doesn't have one to defend himself. Poke him in the eye. Tear off his ear (not hard to do.) Don't play clean. You're fighting for your life; put him in a world of ^%U*&(ing hurt. If he takes one hand off the gun, so much the better - yank it away from him. Use your hips and torso to lever it out of his hand - much stronger than your arm. A kick to the pelvis will push him back enough to let you get his gun on him - or better yet, get your gun out, because you don't even know if his is loaded.

I'm not saying these are going to work everytime, or even once. But they're things to things about. As I often see around here "The fight will not be the way you want it to be - the fight will be the way it is."

I use one of three different approaches, depending entirely on the circumstances.

One approach: "Nice gun! I've been looking for one of those and I'll pay $2,500 spot cash for that one if it's in good working condition. Let me check it out."

Another approach: "Do you realize that there's a cigarette butt in the muzzle of that gun? Let me clear it out for you so it doesn't explode if you pull the trigger. I am a certified armorer and it won't take me a minute. No charge."

Last approach: "The cops are chasing me and I've been trying to get away. But they're pretty close right now. I can't do more time. Pull the trigger."

As I often see around here "The fight will not be the way you want it to be - the fight will be the way it is."

BlackBearMe, excellent point.

If everyone can agree to the above, we can break this down further to this:

The situation [ the gun "in your face", meaning pointed at you threateninly not necessarily right in your face ] is controlled by the BG. He is controlling what the fight will be [ or no fight at all but he controls regardless ].

As he is in control through intimidation and threats [ could be overtly or not ], it will be what he wants it to be, so in fact he controls your destiny at that moment in time and does so as long as he has the gun on you or can put the gun back on you physically.

Someone offering their wallet, to pay for the gun they've been looking for, or examine it to fix it for them, is essentially not in control and never gains control over their own destiny.

The gun can go off for any reason, at any time but it is pointed at you and if it goes off even accidently, that won't matter to you physically, you'll still be shot. I think we can all agree thats a bad thing.

Instead of complying and letting the scenario be what it will be through the BG's good graces [ of not shooting you at any time within the scenario on purpose or accidently ], I've always preferred the fight to be what it will be through my own intentions/interventions.

I prefer to control the way the fight will be and my own destiny [ for good, bad or ugly, no matter how it turns out ]. And there will be a fight, no question of that as long as I can touch that weapon he's holding on me.

So the fight can be what it will be based on your compliance, and his actions to that which HE controls at all times and decides if you live or die even if you comply, or the fight can be what it's going to be based on YOUR actions and YOUR controlling the fight.

Either way, the fight will be what the fight will be though. You have to answer that given with,

Do I let him control the fight and wait to see if he is kind and generous enough not to shoot me on purpose after that compliance or take the chance he's not nervous, someone or something interjects into the scenario and he pulls the trigger inadvertently/unintentionally or

Do take control of my own destiny and this scenario and make the fight what it will be based on my proactive countermeasures. Thats what gun disarms are by the way-ACTIVE countermeasures.

Those who have thought reading this thread, or stated in a post, that they'd like to create a distraction of some kind, or wait for an opportunity to move and shoot the BG when it presents are actually stating they are waiting to use their own form of active-countermeasures, but with a gun.

I would prefer not to make this a gun fight [ by going to guns ] as you still run the risk of taking incoming in doing so, you know--the fight will be what the fight will be.

You don't control the fight in a gun battle as well as you do by taking control of his weapon while you get off line of the muzzle. There are choices to be made, but clearly, certain actions or inactions will bring about various outcomes. I've never attempted a disarm that didn't control the weapon immeidately [ thats to say once I've acted, no one has been able to keep the weapon or put the muzzle back on my person ].

I like that outcome myself. The training for this scenario was in 81. The instructors knew exactly what we were taught and going to use against them, they still could not shoot us. It didn't take a month of training to learn how, it didn't take a few days, nor even a few hours to learn and to be able to take control of the weapon and get the muzzle off our person before they could pull the trigger.

Your right about "the fight will be what the fight will be", and the fight is on immediately if anyone muzzles me with a firearm and I can touch it. It's been that way for 27 years and it's not going to change until I don't have the stomach for it, find I'm too old and slow to make it happen, and the training no longer works based on my physical abilities.

Only then will I be complacent, and comply and have to let the fight be what it will be based on their generosity in not shooting me. It will happen one day, but it won't be today nor will it be tomorrow

Brownie

From " the luckier than s**t files" :
When I got out of the Marines in 1974 after a four year tour, I was working at a 7-11 on the 11:00 PM to 7:00AM shift alone. A bad guy came in to buy a pack of cigaretts and instead of taking money out of his pocket he pulled out a .45 and pointed it at my head. I had a .357 magnum under the counter in a holster and considered going for it,but since he had me covered the chances of me getting off a shot were pretty slim, and all i could think of was what the DI's taught us in boot camp; if your ambushed your best chance is to turn in the direction of fire and charge( if it's a good ambush your going to die anyway) so i jumped forward and grabbed the gun with both hands (he only had one hand on it) after a breif struggle i had the gun and he got up and ran out the door, in the adrenalined up state of mind i was in i pointed the gun in his direction and pulled the trigger; it didn't fire because he had forgotten to rack the slide and load the chamber, thats probably why i'm still alive, because during the struggle the gun was pointed at me and he was tring to pull the trigger. In the 30+ years since this happened i have replayed this incident a 1000 times in my mind, and to this day i don't know what came over me that night or if i would do it again, but i think if a guy has the drop on you,you might as well die fighting, you might just get lucky like i did

So brownie, if this SD tactic is so effective and doesn't even take hours to learn, what/who/where is the best place for us to learn from a local trainer?

So brownie, if this SD tactic is so effective and doesn't even take hours to learn, what/who/where is the best place for us to learn from a local trainer?

I've no idea where one would find a trainer that has been given the same skills in this area that I was given 27 years ago Markbo.

I ocassionally demo the skill in the shooting classes, and students that come out to Az for one on one training get the skill while taking the shooting course if they want it after hours.

There are quite a few thoughts/techniques on disarms among various trainers, and then there are the dojo disarms within differing disciplines/systems as well. I've been exposed to some of these, but I've not found any of them as easy to learn or duplicate to date.

Brownie

Depends upon what you consider "in your face". If I am within 5 feet of them, I may try to disarm them or take them out of the FIGHT with my unarmed combatives. WHY... because drawing your gun does NOT guarantee your survival!!! And, you may not be able to get it out. Understand that the gun is NOT the solution to your problem. A lot of schools teach the gun as the "solution" but it is only a TOOL!

The following is just ONE of many possibilities...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TXLOQvWe0w

Uhhh, Offer him $300 for the gun?

I say 'Here's my wallet" and throw them my wallet, "Here's my car keys" and throw them my keys, and "Here's my cell phone", and draw and fire.

A lot of schools teach the gun as the "solution" but it is only a TOOL!

Brian@ITC, I agree. I started this thread on that very subject some time ago here.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=318749

Too many instructors/courses/schools concentrate on their students becoming guncentric where every solution has to be solved with the gun. I know a few that even teach FoF with a gun, but at combatives ranges of in your face where H2H skills are the order of the day to create the time and distance to get to the gun, they still train to "go to guns" as thats all they know.


Brownie

Unfortunately i've looked down a barrel pointed at me.

3 things I would say about any self defense situation

first and foremost keep the adrenaline in check as much as possible

2nd If i feel like i'm gonna die and the person intends to kill me I will do whatever it takes to stop that from happening

and also when you gain the advantage in such a situation remember the first thing i said about keeping your adrenaline in check. Adrenaline can also create rage. And anything you do will be tried to used against you in court.