Real ID act and guns

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GunTech

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Can anyone confirm or refute this:

As of the active date of the REAL ID act (now Dec 31, 2009 I think) you will not be able to purchase firearms unless your identification complies with READ ID. 4473s will be printed that reflect this.

Several states like Montana have voted no to comply with or participate in the REAL ID program. I have already been told by the guards at the Max Baucus federal building that people without compliant ID will no longer be allowed inside once the act goes into effect.
 
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Well, without actually reading the gigantic bill that was already earmarked, I mean passed by our lovely congresspeople, I would guess that that is a true statement. I know for fact you won't be able to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments, or take advantage of nearly any government service without it. It would only make sense that you would not be able to purchase a firearm without one. After all, currently they ask for your drivers license and call a federal registry to get permission to sell you a firearm.

But what is your beef? It's to protect us from terrorist.
 
Many states have said they won't comply. I say there will be a Mexican standoff and either the states or the feds will have to blink.

Can you imagine a state where its citizens can't do business with the feds because their ID's won't let them in the fed bldg's? What do you do with a fed subpoena?
 
Montana started the fury, several other states agreed. the REAL ID act, as it is currently written, will not go into effect. It's day-dreaming by the socialists in congress, but with the amount of opposition and a new president on the way, I think it will fade into a memory pretty soon.
 
REAL ID will go into effect. It has already been signed into law. But several states have stated they won't comply. Big Difference

The issue with Real ID and guns came from chatting with a Federal agent. ATF sets the standards for acceptable ID for federally licensed dealers. If ATF tells dealers that non-REAL ID is not an acceptable for of ID for gun purchases, the dealer cannot sell, or he is in violation of Federal law.

That means that a Montana Driver's License or CWP will not be acceptable ID for buying a gun, effectively making gun sales by FFLs in Montana unlawful, if I am understanding correctly.

Please note. I only know this as a rumor passed to me. I have no proof that this will be the case, and am looking for same.
 
Hawaii is against it too. I've heard that if a certain state doesn't comply you would have to have a passport to travel between the states.
 
From Wikipedia:

State non-compliance
See also: National identification number
Portions of the Real ID Act pertaining to states were scheduled to take effect on May 11, 2008, three years after the law passed, but the deadline has been extended to December 31, 2009[11].

On January 25, 2007, a Resolution passed overwhelmingly in the Maine Legislature that refuses implementation of the Real ID Act in that State, and demands Congress repeal the law. Many Maine lawmakers believe the law does more harm than good, that it would be a bureaucratic nightmare to enforce, is threatening to individual privacy, makes citizens increasingly vulnerable to ID theft, and would cost Maine taxpayers at least $185 million in five years because of the massive unfunded federal mandates on all the states. The Resolution vote in the Maine House was 137-4 and in the Maine Senate unanimously, 34-0. [12]

On February 16, 2007, Utah unanimously passed a resolution which opposes the REAL ID Act[13]. The resolution states that REAL ID is "in opposition to the Jeffersonian principles of individual liberty, free markets, and limited government." It further states that "the use of identification-based security cannot be justified as part of a 'layered' security system if the costs of the identification 'layer'--in dollars, lost privacy, and lost liberty--are greater than the security identification provides."

Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Washington have joined Maine in passing legislation opposing Real ID.[14][15][16][17][18]

Similar bills are pending in Alaska, Massachusetts, Oregon, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New York, Rhode Island, Washington, D.C., Wyoming and Vermont.[19]

Other states have moved aggressively to upgrade their IDs since 9/11, and still others have staked decidedly pro-Real ID positions, such as California [20],North Carolina[21] and New York. In announcing the new regulations, Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff cited California, Alabama and North Dakota[22] as examples of states that had made progress in complying with Real ID.

New York's new policy of issuing driver's licenses to undocumented residents upon presentation of a valid foreign passport goes against the requirements for documentation of legal status and a valid Social Security Number.
 
You are required to show your papers in Indian under the following circumstances:

Firearm license.
Motor vehicle operaters license. Of course if you provide a motor vehicle operating license in 3 days you will not be charged in that section.
Must identify self if you are stopped by law enforcement officer for an infraction or ordinance violation

That is all I could find for Indiana.

BTW: I take back what I said earlier about the requirement to provide a federal license to purchase a firearm. The implant in your forehead is ok too :evil:
 
BTW: I take back what I said earlier about the requirement to provide a federal license to purchase a firearm. The implant in your forehead is ok too

Hey, it's for the children.
 
Can anyone say "mark of the Beast"? When the Federally mandated 55mph speed limit was ordered a couple or three decades ago, Alabama Governor George C.Wallace refused to comply,stating a states right to set it's own speed limits. This lasted until the Feds threatened to cut off all highway funding. Same will happen with the REAL ID unless significant numbers of states refuse to comply. "Resolutions" are feel good moves that have not the weight of law but it is a start.
 
Well, this isn't a resolution, it's state law in Oklahoma. I also am proud that we got in line behind Montana; our legislation is pretty clear. No, no, and NO.

A. 1. The Legislature finds that the enactment into law by the United States Congress of the federal REAL ID Act of 2005, Public Law Number 109-13, is inimical to the security and well-being of the people of Oklahoma, will cause approximately Eight Million Dollars ($8,000,000.00) in added expense and inconvenience to our state, and was adopted by the United States Congress in violation of the principles of federalism contained in the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

2. The State of Oklahoma shall not participate in the implementation of the REAL ID Act of 2005. The Department of Public Safety is hereby directed not to implement the provisions of the REAL ID Act of 2005 and to report to the Governor and the Legislature any attempt by agencies or agents of the United States Department of Homeland Security to secure the implementation of the REAL ID Act of 2005 through the operations of that or any other state department.

B. No department or agency of the state charged with motor vehicle registration or operation, the issuance or renewal of driver licenses, or the issuance or renewal of any identification cards shall collect, obtain, or retain any data in connection with activities related to complying with the REAL ID Act of 2005.

C. Any biometric data previously collected, obtained, or retained in connection with motor vehicle registration or operation, the issuance or renewal of driver licenses, or the issuance or renewal of any identification cards by any department or agency of this state charged with those activities shall be retrieved and deleted from any and all databases. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to any data collected, obtained or retained for a purpose other than complying with the REAL ID Act of 2005.
 
I presume that my US Passport will continue to be acceptable to the feds as ID (though not as proof od residency). That should let me board an airplane and enter a federal courthouse.
 
I had to look up a word:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inimical
in·im·i·cal (-nm-kl)
adj.
1. Injurious or harmful in effect; adverse: habits inimical to good health.
2. Unfriendly; hostile: a cold, inimical voice.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Late Latin inimclis, from Latin inimcus, enemy; see enemy.]

U.S. Citizens are already going to need a passport to fly on airlines in the near future, I'm thinking a passport will/should suffice for 4473 I.D. .

I think I'll go look up Balkanization now. :eek:
 
Just wait until the Feds withhold funds until the states comply. States with large urban centers(big cities) will fold after 90days if the .gov withholds grants, matching funds, ect. They wouldn't be able to pay for their vote buying welfare programs that Washington encouraged them to start years ago.

The Feds are kinda like your local drug dealer, a free sample at first, and after you are hooked, you will do anything for your next fix.
 
As of the active date of the REAL ID act (now Dec 31, 2009 I think) you will not be able to purchase firearms unless your identification complies with READ ID. 4473s will be printed that reflect this.

Several states like Montana have voted no to comply with or participate in the REAL ID program. I have already been told by the guards at the Max Baucus federal building that people without compliant ID will no longer be allowed inside once the act goes into effect.

It would be interesting if a state like MT that has rejected RealID passes another law saying, basically, screw the feds, no FFL's needed to deal guns in the state, all federal buildings/bureaucracies/etc. either accept the state ID or leave the state (note please that federal property in states can only be owned by the feds so long as the states agree to allow them to own it, states can tell the feds they are taking back their property anytime, Constitution Article 1 Section 8, "to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings"). Of course, this would be just one step short of secession and I'm not sure many politicians are brave enough to do so. The last time states tried to assert their rights as I mentioned above, Lincoln was willing to fight a war over it...
 
Just wait until the Feds withhold funds until the states comply. States with large urban centers(big cities) will fold after 90days if the .gov withholds grants, matching funds, ect. They wouldn't be able to pay for their vote buying welfare programs that Washington encouraged them to start years ago.

Few productive people would miss them. I think the feds would actually be too cowardly to try that, especially given the unpopularity of RealID.
 
Va. Braces for Driver's License Changes

Va. Braces for Driver's License Changes

By Anita Kumar
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 17, 2007; Page B01

RICHMOND -- Virginia officials are struggling over how to implement and pay for new federal regulations that will require the state's 5.5 million drivers to wait in line to get a driver's license in what is expected to be a lengthy process similar to getting a passport.

Some states are refusing to comply with the strict regulations. Others are asking Congress to change or repeal the costly program. But in Virginia, a state where nearly half of the Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers got their driver's licenses, many lawmakers generally welcome the safeguards designed to help prevent terrorist attacks and reduce the number of licenses granted to illegal immigrants.

"The vast majority of 9/11 terrorists used Virginia licenses," Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D) said. "I think that's why you haven't seen as much of a push back."

Maryland lawmakers introduced bills this year calling for a repeal of the regulations, but none passed. The D.C. Council passed a resolution supporting a repeal this year.

Virginia is one of a handful of states that have set aside money to start implementing the law by the May deadline. But the state will remain at a standstill until the Homeland Security Department releases long-promised guidelines creating licenses with digital photographs, signatures and machine-readable features such as bar codes.

"We've been on hold waiting for the federal government to make up its mind," said D.B. Smit, commissioner of the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles. "There's an uncertainty about it. It's a very anxious time for us."

Under the regulations, drivers would have to bring proof of citizenship or legal presence and proof of Virginia residency to the local motor vehicles office. Workers would verify the information before mailing the licenses to the drivers.

State officials said they probably will not require everyone who has a license to come in at the same time for the new license. Instead, drivers will go in when they are scheduled to renew, or every five years. Still, this could lead to longer-than-usual waits because many people renew by mail, Internet or phone. Of about 888,000 renewals a year, 232,000 people do not go to DMV offices.

Across the nation, opposition to the regulations is building from a diverse coalition of organizations and governments that worry about a loss of privacy, a hefty price tag and the treatment of those who might have trouble producing necessary documents, including immigrants, the elderly and the disabled. About two-thirds of states have passed or are debating legislation opposing the law, called the Real ID Act.
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"Real ID is, in fact, a real nightmare," said Barry Steinhardt, director of the technology and liberty program at the American Civil Liberties Union. "It was a bad idea from the very beginning. . . . It bowed to the wishes of a few powerful members of Congress."

Congress approved the bill after it was established that the Sept. 11 hijackers acquired, legitimately or by fraud, IDs that allowed them to board planes, rent cars and apartments and open bank accounts. Seven of the 19 hijackers obtained documents in Virginia, where terrorists hijacked a plane at Dulles International Airport and crashed it into the Pentagon.

Supporters say the law will make it more difficult for potential terrorists to move through the country.

"There are groups out there who want to attack the United States," U.S. Rep. Frank R. Wolf (R-Va.) said. "I don't think this is the time to let our guard down."

Opponents say it will produce a type of national ID card that will lead to more unlicensed and uninsured drivers.

U.S. Rep. James P. Moran Jr. (D-Va.) called the Real ID Act "an insane federal law" and "a nutty piece of legislation that needs to be rewritten."

"All this is going to do is make life miserable for American citizens," Moran said. The lines to get licenses "are going to be several blocks long, 24 hours a day."

In Virginia, where immigration has become a huge political issue in recent months, the act is also being touted by some lawmakers, including state Sen. John C. Watkins (R-Chesterfield), chairman of the Virginia Commission on Immigration, as a way to curb legitimate documents being given to illegal immigrants.

But Claire Guthrie Gastanaga, who represents several immigrant groups, including the Virginia Coalition of Latino Organizations, predicts that the law will drive illegal immigrants underground, where they will get scammed by companies offering fraudulent papers or international driver's licenses that cannot be used for driving in Virginia.

Bills are pending in both chambers of Congress to delay or repeal the law before May. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff is expected to announce delays, for at least some drivers, in the next few months.

U.S. Rep. Thomas M. Davis III (R-Va.), one of the original sponsors of the bill, said that the states' concerns will be addressed and that if they do not want to comply with the law, they can opt out.

However, driver's licenses issued in states that do not comply cannot be accepted as proof of identity for boarding airplanes, buying guns or entering federal buildings.

Virginia was the first state to try to increase security of driver's licenses after the Sept. 11 attacks. In 2003, the General Assembly passed a law requiring new applicants to provide proof of citizenship or legal presence, along with proof of Virginia residency.
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Two years later, Congress took it a step further, requiring all states to provide proof of citizenship or legal presence for new and existing drivers.

Documents used as evidence, such as birth certificates and passports, would have to be verified by comparing them to Social Security, immigration and State Department databases as well as those of other states.

Del. David B. Albo (R-Fairfax), one of the original sponsors of the Virginia bill, said he likes the concept behind the federal law but does not want to get stuck footing the bill. His legislation initially included renewals until it became clear that the state could not afford to upgrade the nearly 1 million licenses renewed each year.

The cost of implementing the Real ID Act in Virginia is unknown because the specific federal requirements are still unknown. Estimates have varied from $35 million to $170 million in start-up costs, with million of dollars more in annual operating costs.

"This is a very expensive federal mandate," said Pierce R. Homer, Virginia's secretary of transportation.

Nationally, cost estimates range from $11 billion to $23 billion. Congress has set aside just $40 million for states, with $50 million more pending in a bill in Congress now.

Last year, the General Assembly allocated $2.5 million in initial start-up costs and $5.2 million for operating costs. The DMV expects $5.2 million a year in state money until implementation is completed.

Kaine will unveil his two-year budget Monday but said he has not set aside new money for the Real ID Act because of the lack of federal guidelines.

"It would be hard to ask the legislature for anything when the regulations are still up in the air," Kaine said

My own comment was wondering why 20-something terrorists are cause for 7 MILLION other people (the residents of VA) to have to spend the extra taxes, time, money, and hassle for this boondoggle.
 
Just wait until the Feds withhold funds until the states comply. States with large urban centers(big cities) will fold after 90days if the .gov withholds grants, matching funds, ect. They wouldn't be able to pay for their vote buying welfare programs that Washington encouraged them to start years ago.

Then I guess the states must withhold their tax money to the feds in the first place because, you know, they'd need to keep more money to make up for the giant revolving door of money from the state to the fed back to the state again.

I know, wishful thinking on my part...
 
there will be a Mexican standoff

LOL

Seriously, though, what's the point of the Real ID if there's no intention of enforcing our borders or employment laws anyway?

The only reason I can come up with is that it's intended to keep close tabs on you and me, not potential terrorists, and not employers with under-the-table illegal immigrant labor.
 
One of the main reason cited for a Federal ID program is because that is what the 9-11 commission report recommended. The 9-11 commission is mostly about fighting terrorism.
 
One of the main reason cited for a Federal ID program is because that is what the 9-11 commission report recommended. The 9-11 commission is mostly about fighting terrorism.

Sometimes I think terrorism is a bit overblown as a problem. Sometimes I think it makes a convenient excuse to keep closer tabs on American sheeple. It's good to keep the masses scared of something. Now, I have no doubt that terrorists are real and that they have done and want to do some bad things to American interests, but to listen to the media talking heads and the empty suits in government, you'd think there was a couple of regiments poised to storm the beaches near Corpus.
 
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