Why am I incredibly inaccurate with my regular pistol/ammo combo?

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BridgeWalker

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I figured it was poor skills, until this past Sunday.

I have an older S&W (a model 59, if anyone knows it). 9mm. I usually shoot the usual WWB or UMC 115gr cheapo plinking stuff.

I shoot mostly from about eight yards, mostly because my "groups" get about two feet across from further back yet.

I shoot one-handed exclusively. I have no idea what stance I'm using, other than a couple pretty intense gunnies who shoot there have helped me learn it.

Usually, from that distance, with that gun and that ammo, I was getting most of my shots within about five or so inches, with a couple out to six or eight inches and a couple flyers. Slowly getting better.

Now Sunday was *cold*. A cold wind blew in and the temp dropped from forty or so down into the twenties, feeling much colder from the wind. But, a friend just getting into guns had driven out from Detroit and so we hit the range anyway. He brought two guns, a P22 and some lower end S&W .40. We had several mechanical failures with all three guns, probably from the cold and rapidly dropping temps, but persisted anyway.

In addition to his Federal value-pack .22 and Blazer Brass .40, I'd brought some Cor-bon 147gr. JHPs out for my 9mm.

I had one inch groups. Over and over again. With the .22 and with the .40, which might mean my gun is just inaccurate, but I also got tight little groups with the 147gr JHPs.

I've been thinking about this for a couple days and I don't know what to make of it. I don't think that I could possibly have just had a really good day. It was freaking freezing, and I spent the first twenty minutes picking last week's brass out of the ice (it had gotten lost in the snow). My hands were frozen. The brisk wind made it hard to hold the gun steady, especially with my once-handed stance. And I still sucked with the 115gr. cheapo FMJ.

So, any ideas? I can't hardly afford to shoot cor-bon all the time, although I am starting to reload--but with 115gr. FMJ. I have no idea what powder is in the WWB/UMC I've been using, and tinkering with powders is a bit beynd my skill level just now. The .40 was the most surprising. I haven't shot any handguns larger than 9mm. in months, and instantly I was just better at it.

What the heck was going on, and how can I replicate it in the future, short of buying nothing but premium self-defense ammo for casual shooting? Do I need different bullets? Some different powder? Is 9mm. a particularly difficult caliber to shoot accurately?
 
Here is my guess, and it is just a guess, but I am going to say that ammo is likely not the problem.

Critically analyze your shooting a little more. I know your all over the paper, but are you consistently all over the paper, or is it a crap shoot as to where the bullet hits? Are you jerking the trigger? Is your gun filthy beyond comprehension? Think about what was different between your buddies guns and yours. Not design-wise, but in the actual shooting. Were his triggers crisper? Did the guns fit your hand better? Were his sights bigger/smaller/taller/shorter/brighter/darker etc...?

I suppose it could be your ammo, but at 8 yards, I wouldn't think that the ammo would have that dramatic of an effect. I also suppose it could be your gun, but again, that seems a little less likely. I am not necessarily pointing the finger and saying "operator error" either, but there has got to be some sort of difference between his guns and yours that you can pinpoint.
 
I recently bought a Sig P220. Couldn't throw a decent group out of it to save my soul.
A friend shot it and at 15 yards was able to keep everything in a one-inch group.
From my other .45s I can keep nice tight groups, but still can't do squat with the Sig.
Was talking to the wise old friend who makes my holsters and said something about blaming the gun and maybe selling it until I saw my friend shoot it accurately.
The old holster maker gave me some very sage advice. He said "It is your gun. It doesn't fit you right. Change your grips."
My guess is the cold weather made you change your grip. You'll change it back when it gets warm.
If you have a custom grip maker in your area I'd visit him/her.
If not I'd go a gun shop, test my grip on a number of guns, then ask them to fit your gun with something that resembles the best grip you found among your test guns.
ie: The Glock 17, 19 and 26 are all the same 9mm caliber. I can't shoot a 17 or 26 worth a darn, but am dead on with a 19. Only real change is grip, weight and barrel length. But, the 19 feels comfortable and shoots to POA. The 17 and 26 are all over the place.
Incidentally, still looking for the right grips for the Sig...
 
Most people whom I see who have trouble shooting well at close range aren't focusing on the front sight.

Don't focus on the target; it should be a blur.
Don't focus on the rear sight; it should be a blur.
Focus exclusively on the front sight. It should be sharply in focus.

Fail to focus on the front sight, and your shots will usually be all over the target.

You probably need to dry fire a lot to help your consistency. ENSURE that your firearm is safely cleared. Concentrate on the fundamentals, breathing, trigger control (squeeze straight to the rear, no jerking) and sight picture. It's easier (and cheaper) to learn the fundamentals with dry firing, before you throw in muzzle blast, flash and recoil. It also helps you avoid bad habits that are hard to unlearn.
 
OK, so what was different and how could that affect your shooting?

It was cold. Were you wearing (different) gloves? Did the cold numb your hand to the point where you didn't know when the gun would fire so you couldn't anticipate the recoil? Were you so distracted by the weather that you weren't so focused on the gun?

The ammo was different. Did it expand your recoil tolerance? Could it be that your particular gun just really doesn't like cheap ammo (I seriousy doubt it).

I can't really offer much useful advice... I don't know what's going wrong and I'm not a great shot anyway. My guess, not knowing nearly enough, is that you are using a shotgunner's trigger tap instead of a handgunner's trigger squeeze/press on a pistol that is a lot less stable (single handed grip, no shoulder stock, etc) than any shotgun. Maybe you were more accurate because the combination of weather and mechanical difficulties made you focus more on the squeeze just to overcome all the other challenges. Or maybe I'm totally off base... what do I know about it? :)

Do you shoot any other guns regularly? I'm a STRONG believer in swapping between a centerfire and rimfire pistol if you can.
 
Give your gun to a friend to shoot (one that knows how to shoot). If he makes a ragged little hole, then you know it is not the gun. If he doesn't, well, that still doesn't prove it's the gun, but it strengthens the case.
In my experience, the S&W M59 is a very serviceable firearm that should group fine at 8 yards.
 
I shoot one-handed exclusively.
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So do I, but not beyond 5 yds....BTW, your S&W 59 series is a very good pistol, unless it has some minor problems...
Like it's been suggested, have someone else shoot your pistols & then you can determine where the problems lie...Good shooting...:)
 
...but are you consistently all over the paper, or is it a crap shoot as to where the bullet hits?
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Consistently placed larger patterns. Was shooting a bit high a couple weeks ago. Not any more.

Are you jerking the trigger?
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I don't think so, but I am not generally terribly conscious of pulling the trigger. As Ed noted, I do a lot more shotgunning (or I did when it was warmer out and they opened up the trap range).

Is your gun filthy beyond comprehension?
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No.

Think about what was different between your buddies guns and yours. Not design-wise, but in the actual shooting. Were his triggers crisper? Did the guns fit your hand better? Were his sights bigger/smaller/taller/shorter/brighter/darker etc...?
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The larger one fit similarly. The P22 was much smaller, but oddly comfortable. I have average-to-large hands for a woman, only maybe very slightly smaller than the average guy.

Sights were *much* brighter and clearer. White dots, whereas mine are just black. Also lower to the gun, I believe.

[quote[If you have a custom grip maker in your area I'd visit him/her.[/quote]

Well, it's really my husband's gun, so I can't really do that. I am getting myself a gun or two in a bit. Definitely a possibility. My hands were too numb to really notice a difference in grip, but my friend has pretty small hands for a guy, and I think he rejected the Glock he was planning on buying because the grip was too fat. So perhaps his gun has a slimmer grip.

Focus exclusively on the front sight. It should be sharply in focus.
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Doing that already.

It was cold. Were you wearing (different) gloves?
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Nope, no gloves.

Did the cold numb your hand to the point where you didn't know when the gun would fire so you couldn't anticipate the recoil?
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My hands were pretty numb, but I've done pretty extensive work dry-drying and putting random numbers in rounds into mags and working with a friend's revolver with random empty chambers. So far, no flinch in evidence.

Were you so distracted by the weather that you weren't so focused on the gun?
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Could be. I was also very focused on watching my friend; he is not experienced with guns and was having a hard time keeping his finger off the trigger.

Did it expand your recoil tolerance?
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I don't know what you mean. I did really enjoy shooting the .40. It just seemed different and more fun than the 9. Could not describe how or why. I did like the sound and feel of the hotter 9mm. cor-bon.

My guess, not knowing nearly enough, is that you are using a shotgunner's trigger tap instead of a handgunner's trigger squeeze/press on a pistol that is a lot less stable (single handed grip, no shoulder stock, etc) than any shotgun.
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That is quite likely. I have done a lot more shotgunning and I have had a lot more instruction with shotguns.

Do you shoot any other guns regularly? I'm a STRONG believer in swapping between a centerfire and rimfire pistol if you can.
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Not really. I have shot a couple of other guns, including a .22 and a revolver, but not in a couple of months. I am planning on getting a .22 in a couple weeks.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. I have lots to work on, clearly. :)
 
I can think of no reason why you would be doing that.
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Bad shoulder, intense pain upon keeping the other arm extended for more than a couple of minutes. I more or less deal with it for shotgun, but somehow that isn't quite as hard. Keeping my left arm extended for pistol shooting was both really unpleasant and not helpful at all. I generally shoot one mag left-handed just so I'm not completely incapable without my right hand, but even that can involve significant teeth-gritting. I shoot for the fun of it, mostly, and pain makes it not fun.
 
delta9 said:
Sights were *much* brighter and clearer. White dots, whereas mine are just black. Also lower to the gun, I believe.
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I have a pair of .22's a P22 and a Taurus 94 revolver. Indoors I can shoot circles around the Taurus with the P22. Outdoors it's the opposite. The Taurus has much better sights in the respect that they're target sights. However they're all black, and hard to see indoors.

Try some new sights on your S&W and see if it improves your aim. Something bright and easy to see. :)
 
My best guess is this: You have been shooting cheap ammo in your gun. You then switched to ammo it likes better, a lot better. Toy around with different weights and bullet designs. You don't necessarily need to shoot the expensive stuff all the time, but find a practice ammo your gun likes.
 
I don't think ammo could explain the change from 5"-8" groups to 1" groups at 8 yards, seems a little extreme. Besides WWB isn't that bad. :)
 
1. put your glasses on! :p

Have you looked at your barrel mechanism? How about, as somebody, mentioned, critically looking at your shooting style. I'd say get a ringer to shoot your weapon and see what they do. Good luck
-bix
 
delta9 . . .

  • The fact that you shot 1" groups with different guns shows that you basically know how to shoot. A 1" group at eight yards would have been 3" at 25 yards -- fairly decent for someone who hasn't a ton of experience and has shoulder pain and who is shooting in windy cold conditions. You just might be a better shot than you think you are.
  • The windy cold might have helped by taking your mind off of your shoulder pain.
  • The reason people are willing to pay more for premium ammo is that premium ammo performs better in all categories; internal, external and terminal balistics. If you have found something that your gun likes, use it. If your gun likes expensive stuff, so be it. Don't shoot as much. It is more satisfying to slowly shoot one box into a tight group than it is to blow through 300 rounds to make a shotgun pattern. Also, a too-long range session will aggravate the pain and yield little if any improvement.
  • There is nothing wrong with shooting with one hand. You have said that you shoot primarily for fun. That makes you a plinker or a target shooter. Next time you shoot a 1" group take a look at how the spray and pray shooters are doing with two hands.
  • Don't keep the gun up on target too long. The longer you try to achieve a perfect sight picture the more annoying your pain will become and the more tired your arm will become. Get your sight picture settled down as best you can then smoothly squeeze the shot off and be done with it.
Have fun!
 
The fact that you shot 1" groups with different guns shows that you basically know how to shoot. .
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I read it as she got better groups not just with the other guns but with her own gun with different ammo (cor-bon). If it wasn't for that last fact I'd just blame the gun and move on.
 
delta,

It sounds to me like you are just not comfortable with that gun. As others pointed out, if you can shoot 1" groups with another gun, you know how to shoot. The other possibility is that there is something wrong with the gun, but it is hard to believe that it would scatter so much and still function.

It may be something as trivial as getting more fitting grip panels, but it could also be that the recoil of that gun-ammo combination is not comfortable for you and your form suffers.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with shooting duelist-style. I love it and am only slightly less accurate with it. I am a guy but know that some women have trouble with the weaver, for obvious reasons. One of my female friends makes 30% SMALLER groups in the duelist.
 
I didn't real all the posts so sorry if this has already been said. It might no be the ammo you are using but the weight of the bullet. You said you always shoot 115gr bullets but this time you shot 147gr bullets. I would suggest you try a less expensive brand of ammo with a 147gr bullet and see if you shoot as well as the other day.
 
You just need a better gun, one that fits you better. Maybe a smaller gun, yet in a different caliber. Although, the friends gun and your husband's gun were probably physically the same size, so it might just have been the grips.
 
Ammo will make a difference. I had a 9mm that constantly shot low with 115gr, but with 147gr was right on the money. The bigger bullet weighs more, takes a fraction of a second longer to exit the barrel and therefore "rides the recoil" a hair longer, shooting slightly higher. Also, in non-+P rounds, the heavier bullets tend to have a little less recoil, less muzzle energy, less FPS speed and the shooting experience can be a little less painful. If you perceive less recoil, you'll flinch less, keep your eyes focused on your front sight longer, and just generally increase your accuracy. How the gun fits in your hand also makes a difference. I had a CZ Rami that I loved but couldn't hit a damn thing with it, grip angle was all wrong for me, gun didn't fit. But, with my Stoeger Cougar or my Sig P226, I can't miss.
 
delta9:

I for one believe that we cannot separate out where the pain is in our body. That shoulder pain can have an both an effect and an affect on you. For fact, it does on me.

My neurosurgeons encourage me to shoot, and to hunt as much as I can. I went from beautiful 1" center-to-center groups @ 25 yards with my one very accurate pistol, to post-surgery doing well to keep 4" center-to-center @ 15 to 20 yards.

In my case, it was predominantly tightness in the shoulders, scar tissue, but it was also simple fatigue, which affected my focus. Since this past surgery, I am building slowly back up. My lastest targets with that same Colt we in the range of 1.5ish" center-to-center @ 20 and 25 yards.

I guess what I am trying to say, the whole body and mind are inseparable. Many time what hinders us is not so simple as grip, stance, etc. Your pain could be hindering you more than you think. After 35 surgeries, I know pain and the effect/affect.

In my case I track my degree of pain. I have my great shooting days, my average shooting days, and the let's not talk about shooting days. But, since I always fire the same ammo, I can easily link my variations back to chronic pain symptoms. It's worth at least reflecting on.

Be well,

Geno
 
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