Richbaker
Member
A gun with a Piezo-electric powered RFID chip could ALWAYS be transmitting...think about it.
Tracking firearms via RFID
- Thread starter SamTuckerMTNMAN
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another "feel good" government control technology easily disabled by criminals that would only raise the price of production for law abiding citizens.
any chips built inside the metal would be electrically shielded by the metal (iow, won't work). any chips built outside the metal would be easily removable. and, as one member already pointed out, a microwave would be yet another way to destroy the chips. this would be about as effective as microstamping firing pins.
any chips built inside the metal would be electrically shielded by the metal (iow, won't work). any chips built outside the metal would be easily removable. and, as one member already pointed out, a microwave would be yet another way to destroy the chips. this would be about as effective as microstamping firing pins.
Radagast
Member
A bit over two years ago the Australian federal govt. asked Computer Science Corp. to develop an RFID tracking system for firearms. CSC do a lot of military programming, including submarine combat systems and helicopter flight control systems, so if it's possible they will be able to come up with a solution.
Erebus
Member
The most practical "people tracking" use I see for RFID is automobiles. They generate their own power and they could easily make the chip part of the registration process and mandatory. No functioning transmitter, no plates. Heck it could be built into the plates. Make it law that the manufacturers put a little plug where the plate goes and when you put your plate on you also plug it in. Or put a little solar cell on it so that the sun or your plate light will power it.
The receivers wouldn't be practical in remote areas but anywhere where there is commercial electrical power available is an easy fix. Especially on street light poles and traffic signals. The first time they say they caught a kidnapper after an Amber Alert with it everyone will marvel at how safe this new electronic leash has made them.
Of coarse this won't tell them who's driving the car.
Now from what I understand the RFIDs in the passports are currently only being used to eliminate the need for a human to keypunch your data into a computer. They scan it and your data is entered by the chip. Am I incorrect?
The receivers wouldn't be practical in remote areas but anywhere where there is commercial electrical power available is an easy fix. Especially on street light poles and traffic signals. The first time they say they caught a kidnapper after an Amber Alert with it everyone will marvel at how safe this new electronic leash has made them.
Of coarse this won't tell them who's driving the car.
Now from what I understand the RFIDs in the passports are currently only being used to eliminate the need for a human to keypunch your data into a computer. They scan it and your data is entered by the chip. Am I incorrect?
SageMonkey
Member
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- Nov 17, 2007
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- 124
I think a microwave might work even if there is metal in the field stripped frame. Microwaves would still, I think, be received by the antenna and zap the tag. Might be bad for the microwave though.
If not, it would probably be pretty easy to cause the tag physical damage, as long as you knew where it was. Even embedded in a plastic frame a drill bit or dremel should do it.
I don't care what the supposed detection range might be, no way would I carry a gun (or much else) with a rfid tag usable in it. Too much danger, and not just "tinfoil-hat" type worries... the tech is already available, hackers and makers can already play with the tags and can detect them, read them, clone them, sometimes even reprogram them, all at a remarkably low cost.
BTW, if the government wants to track people, they already can. US courts have ruled that it is legal for governmental officers to ask a cell phone provider for mobile phone location data, without even needing a warrant. This data is collected even without the phone being in use, and can be used to locate a phone within less than 100 yards, depending upon where the towers are. I don't know how long the different cell phone companies keep the data, but I could see them being enticed to keep it for a very long time, so long as it paid well.
If not, it would probably be pretty easy to cause the tag physical damage, as long as you knew where it was. Even embedded in a plastic frame a drill bit or dremel should do it.
I don't care what the supposed detection range might be, no way would I carry a gun (or much else) with a rfid tag usable in it. Too much danger, and not just "tinfoil-hat" type worries... the tech is already available, hackers and makers can already play with the tags and can detect them, read them, clone them, sometimes even reprogram them, all at a remarkably low cost.
BTW, if the government wants to track people, they already can. US courts have ruled that it is legal for governmental officers to ask a cell phone provider for mobile phone location data, without even needing a warrant. This data is collected even without the phone being in use, and can be used to locate a phone within less than 100 yards, depending upon where the towers are. I don't know how long the different cell phone companies keep the data, but I could see them being enticed to keep it for a very long time, so long as it paid well.
CypherNinja
Member
EDIT: Awww, dang. Thats what I get for not reading the whole thread....
WildeKurt
Member
So my tin foil hat won't be enough any more? I'll need to fashion a tin foil suit instead I guess.
SamTuckerMTNMAN
Member
do you folks even read the articles?
It's already being done in many places, and as many were sold last year as the last 25 years combined. The RFID's don't need much power, the "sniffers" could be put around in public places, streets, hallways, highways, helicopters, etc, and 'read' the RFID's from a distance.
And if you keep up with current events you'd notice since many schools now tracks students with RFID for their safety, tags worn on bags tell administrators or security officials where each kid is and even where they exited the bus, and even if they are on the bus.
In some areas of the country these are already very popular for cash free bar hopping and age proof drinking. They are implanted and work fine for long periods. Nothing tin foil about reading the news.
I am always amazed at 1.) how trusting the average person is of authorities and corporations regardless of history and 2.) how far to the other side people swing on the pendulum of awareness and caution thereby invalidating the caution for many skeptics.
I guess you have to be a true student of history to understand the way humans work, what they will do and have done, and the likelihood of continued developments designed to track and control people. Some of us just have an inherent "free" gene that is suspicious of these control freaks.
And don't you know about the real ID proposals and passport RFID information, it has only been slowed because people voiced their opinions. Not because they stuck their heads in the sand. Hell raising and bad publicity stopped the course of action for a time.
I will admit they would be easy to destroy or damage, but would you risk not being able to eat, buy, sell, travel, or work, for your family, by being caught without a functioning license chip? Or possession of a firearm without a valid and current tag?
Sure we can destroy them (the tags) , but wouldnt it be better to avoid the need?
st
I said this was coming a long time ago; on here I believe and TFL, 1911forum etc.
Funny; no scoffers this time it seems.
Starts with "GPS on handguns" then moves into RFID ...
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=177542&highlight=rfid
See:
http://www.unobserver.com/layout5.php?id=2147&blz=1
--------------------------
http://searchronpaul.com
Funny; no scoffers this time it seems.
Starts with "GPS on handguns" then moves into RFID ...
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=177542&highlight=rfid
See:
http://www.unobserver.com/layout5.php?id=2147&blz=1
--------------------------
http://searchronpaul.com
Ramius
Member
Read the book Spychips
I think a lot of us are being short sided on this issue. Those of us old enough to remember life pre-internet had no idea how much computers would one day change our life- and that was only a few decades ago. Imagine if you will how this technology will mature when your children are our age....
I highly recomend the book referenced in the above post- "Spychips" is well written and contains a lot of information on the subject- check it out at http://www.spychips.com/
Also worth pointing out that the chips do NOT require a power source of any kind. They are often powered by the energy from the device reading them, i.e. the radio energy from the reader is received by the device, and the modified signal coming back to the reader tells it the information.
Also worth noting: when I read the book, over a year ago, they already had the technology far enough along to produce chips as small as a flake of dandruff, and uses as sci-fi as having them sprinkled onto people like dandruff for I.D. purposes such as catching bank robbers, etc. much like the red dye packs do now.
As far as being put into firearms, if you think they can't make it work you are not using your imagination. Hundreds of chips near the surface of the frame, under the finish.. do you want a pockmarked frame ? or mounted deep near a critical area, where drilling out would ruin the function of the firearm? Worst case, federal law requiring all old guns retrofitted with a device 'for the children', and any gun not so fitted a violation of federal law, subject to confiscation and the holder subject to prison. Think it can't happen? It can. Remember it's easier to stop such nonsense early, before it gains momentum, rather than wait.
I think a lot of us are being short sided on this issue. Those of us old enough to remember life pre-internet had no idea how much computers would one day change our life- and that was only a few decades ago. Imagine if you will how this technology will mature when your children are our age....
I highly recomend the book referenced in the above post- "Spychips" is well written and contains a lot of information on the subject- check it out at http://www.spychips.com/
Also worth pointing out that the chips do NOT require a power source of any kind. They are often powered by the energy from the device reading them, i.e. the radio energy from the reader is received by the device, and the modified signal coming back to the reader tells it the information.
Also worth noting: when I read the book, over a year ago, they already had the technology far enough along to produce chips as small as a flake of dandruff, and uses as sci-fi as having them sprinkled onto people like dandruff for I.D. purposes such as catching bank robbers, etc. much like the red dye packs do now.
As far as being put into firearms, if you think they can't make it work you are not using your imagination. Hundreds of chips near the surface of the frame, under the finish.. do you want a pockmarked frame ? or mounted deep near a critical area, where drilling out would ruin the function of the firearm? Worst case, federal law requiring all old guns retrofitted with a device 'for the children', and any gun not so fitted a violation of federal law, subject to confiscation and the holder subject to prison. Think it can't happen? It can. Remember it's easier to stop such nonsense early, before it gains momentum, rather than wait.
Owen Sparks
member
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- May 27, 2007
- Messages
- 4,523
Whatever RFID technology the future holds, one thing is for certain. Removing or disabling a tracking device in your firearm will be a FELONY.
Just like removing a serial number is now.
Just like removing a serial number is now.
Grandpa Shooter
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2007
- Messages
- 948
For those of you who want more info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID#History_of_RFID_tags
This is a somewhat long, but fascinating look at RFID. It states that RFID was used during WWII and has been used by the military for tracking since 1992.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID#History_of_RFID_tags
This is a somewhat long, but fascinating look at RFID. It states that RFID was used during WWII and has been used by the military for tracking since 1992.
XDKingslayer
member
It SHOULD be a concern now. The fact that it's inaccurate makes it even worse.
Maybe not to you, but it does to the company moving millions of rolls of toilet paper a day. How many people/medical insurance policies/pensions can you eliminate by going to good solid RFID inventory? More than enough to make up the cost difference between crappy and good RFID tags. Trust me, Wal-Mart is using high quality stuff.
WildeKurt
Member
What we need to be mindful of is laws regarding RFID or any other 'snooper' technology (automotive black boxes, etc). When our congress critters start proposing them as mandatory, we need to worry. I'm sure their are some constitutional issues involved here.
People will submit, in the private sector, to all sorts of things in the name of low prices and convenience. I'm sure their use in commerce applications will far out pace the governments.
Owen Sparks
member
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- May 27, 2007
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- 4,523
Didn't most quality firearms have serial numbers before they were made manditory?
By the argument they will make, no more so than serial numbers already used. Thier argument would be it is just an electronic serial number.
You don't have anything to hide do you?
Removing, tampering, altering, or otherwise intentionaly interering with such devices will be a felony offense no different than removing the serial number from a firearm, or the VIN number from an automobile many places.
Just a few days ago I was skimming a rag - "WIRED"? Maybe Popular Science? Anyway, whichever it was, there was an article about chips and Hitachi's new chip powder. Yes; chips so small they were like fine dust.
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=939
Here is RFID Journal:
Hitachi Unveils Integrated RFID Tag
A new mu-chip has an antenna built right onto the chip, which should cut the cost of the tag in half.
By Jonathan Collins
Sept. 4, 2003 - Japanese semiconductor giant Hitachi has unveiled a prototype of its tiny RFID µ-chip, or mu-chip, which features an antenna built onto the microchip. The new tag is so small that the company believes it can be embedded in paper and used to authenticate banknotes and valuable paper documents.
Chips dwarfed by grains of rice.
Hitachi says the tiny tag, which holds a 128-bit serial number, can be used in stock and bond certificates; tickets, gift certificates and coupons; and identification documents, such as passports. The mu-chip can prevent counterfeiting because it provides a traceable number and can't be duplicated easily.
Reports that the mu-chip will be used in Japanese yen banknotes are untrue, according to Kantaro Tanii, a Hitachi spokesman. But Hitachi does anticipate that the mu-chip will be used to prevent counterfeiting of banknotes. "We have no government or bank contracts as yet, but it's a market we expect to grow," Tanii says.
The prototype mu-chip is 0.4 mm x 0.4 mm, the same size as the original version, which required an antenna to be attached. The tags should be more durable because there is no antenna to break off. And Hitachi says the new mu-chip should be less expensive than the existing mu-chip, because the company has eliminated the need to attach an antenna. The new chip is expected to cost half of the 50 to 70 yen each (43 to 60 U.S. cents) the current chip costs. It will be commercially available next year.
The new design uses a process called bump metalization to create the electrical contacts of an integrated circuit on the chip rather than etching the antenna onto the chip during the CMOS process. Hitachi says that, unlike etching, bump metalization eliminates the need for any specialized equipment to manufacture the chips. "We don’t need to add any additional investment to the manufacturing process for this chip," says Tanii.
The one drawback of putting the antenna right on the tiny chip is that it shortens the read range. The new mu-chip can be read from just 1 mm (.04 inch). Even so, Hitachi is convinced that the new mu-chip makes RFID tracking possible in extremely minute and precise applications that had been impractical until now. The company already has plans to embed the new mu-chip in entrance tickets for Expo 2005 Aichi Japan, which opens on March 25, 2005.
Another high-potential application is agricultural products, where the chips can help ensure the safety of food by providing traceability of ingredients, says Tanii. The company also believes its new tag is suited to more traditional retail and supply chain applications.
Hitachi’s first mu-chip, with the external antenna, was announced in July 2001. The company says the new tag is fully compatible with all systems that use Hitachi’s current mu-chip technology.
RFID Journal Home
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/view/556/1/1
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=939
Here is RFID Journal:
Hitachi Unveils Integrated RFID Tag
A new mu-chip has an antenna built right onto the chip, which should cut the cost of the tag in half.
By Jonathan Collins
Sept. 4, 2003 - Japanese semiconductor giant Hitachi has unveiled a prototype of its tiny RFID µ-chip, or mu-chip, which features an antenna built onto the microchip. The new tag is so small that the company believes it can be embedded in paper and used to authenticate banknotes and valuable paper documents.
Chips dwarfed by grains of rice.
Hitachi says the tiny tag, which holds a 128-bit serial number, can be used in stock and bond certificates; tickets, gift certificates and coupons; and identification documents, such as passports. The mu-chip can prevent counterfeiting because it provides a traceable number and can't be duplicated easily.
Reports that the mu-chip will be used in Japanese yen banknotes are untrue, according to Kantaro Tanii, a Hitachi spokesman. But Hitachi does anticipate that the mu-chip will be used to prevent counterfeiting of banknotes. "We have no government or bank contracts as yet, but it's a market we expect to grow," Tanii says.
The prototype mu-chip is 0.4 mm x 0.4 mm, the same size as the original version, which required an antenna to be attached. The tags should be more durable because there is no antenna to break off. And Hitachi says the new mu-chip should be less expensive than the existing mu-chip, because the company has eliminated the need to attach an antenna. The new chip is expected to cost half of the 50 to 70 yen each (43 to 60 U.S. cents) the current chip costs. It will be commercially available next year.
The new design uses a process called bump metalization to create the electrical contacts of an integrated circuit on the chip rather than etching the antenna onto the chip during the CMOS process. Hitachi says that, unlike etching, bump metalization eliminates the need for any specialized equipment to manufacture the chips. "We don’t need to add any additional investment to the manufacturing process for this chip," says Tanii.
The one drawback of putting the antenna right on the tiny chip is that it shortens the read range. The new mu-chip can be read from just 1 mm (.04 inch). Even so, Hitachi is convinced that the new mu-chip makes RFID tracking possible in extremely minute and precise applications that had been impractical until now. The company already has plans to embed the new mu-chip in entrance tickets for Expo 2005 Aichi Japan, which opens on March 25, 2005.
Another high-potential application is agricultural products, where the chips can help ensure the safety of food by providing traceability of ingredients, says Tanii. The company also believes its new tag is suited to more traditional retail and supply chain applications.
Hitachi’s first mu-chip, with the external antenna, was announced in July 2001. The company says the new tag is fully compatible with all systems that use Hitachi’s current mu-chip technology.
RFID Journal Home
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/view/556/1/1
The fundamentals of the technology are sound and it could be done and probably could be done as part of the paint job (bluing). There are several nano-scale tagent/transmitters that have been prototyped. It would even be feasible to put tagents in the powder that would be programmed on discharge to identify which weapon they were fired from.
Once you decide to go down this path, things get weird fast. Technology moves faster than the imagination.
My preference is to put an IFF transponder in each bullet. If you're cop the bullet misses. If you're BG, the bullet follows you around corners. If you're unknown, it whaps you in the ass to get you goin'. Just a scaling problem. With the prices of ammo climbing the way they are, this should be an option in a year or two
Once you decide to go down this path, things get weird fast. Technology moves faster than the imagination.
My preference is to put an IFF transponder in each bullet. If you're cop the bullet misses. If you're BG, the bullet follows you around corners. If you're unknown, it whaps you in the ass to get you goin'. Just a scaling problem. With the prices of ammo climbing the way they are, this should be an option in a year or two
XDKingslayer
member
I'm trying to find the link, but there was a company with it's own in house I.T. personnel. The I.T. guys decided they would play with RFIDs on the company's dime and enhance their I.T. department.
They all volunteered to have RFIDs injected under their skin, then placed readers all over the building. They linked the readers to software that updated a page on the company intranet. If you wanted to know where an I.T. guy was, you simply brought up a page which showed a floor plan of the building and the geeks showed up as little red dots.
It was actually kinda cool.
They all volunteered to have RFIDs injected under their skin, then placed readers all over the building. They linked the readers to software that updated a page on the company intranet. If you wanted to know where an I.T. guy was, you simply brought up a page which showed a floor plan of the building and the geeks showed up as little red dots.
It was actually kinda cool.
Dorryn
Member
They will make it law. Of course, they'll present it as a choice first, then inevitably it will become mandatory. And those of us who are concerned about abuse will be laughed at and told to consider all the myriad advantages of an RFID system for "convenience" and "safety".
I tell you, my life is too convenient and too safe already.
SamTuckerMTNMAN
Member
gps tacking for life
It's easy for some to say "they are sex offenders", track them for life. But here is one beginning. Except these things are old school, black boxes...I think my state is behind in technology here.
Sex offenders tracked for the rest of their life via GPS tags;
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2371727/
heck....why not gun owners?
It's easy for some to say "they are sex offenders", track them for life. But here is one beginning. Except these things are old school, black boxes...I think my state is behind in technology here.
Sex offenders tracked for the rest of their life via GPS tags;
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2371727/
heck....why not gun owners?
Jorg Nysgerrig
Member
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2006
- Messages
- 7,822
Perhaps someone just edited that out of the Wikipedia article, but it currently says, "Similar technology, such as the IFF transponder invented by the United Kingdom in 1939, was routinely used by the allies in World War II to identify airplanes as friend or foe." It later says, "Mario Cardullo's U.S. Patent 3,713,148 in 1973 was the first true ancestor of modern RFID; a passive radio transponder with memory." I'm not sure how you got RFID being used in WWII out of that, unless the article was changed. IFF Transponders are not the same thing as RFID.Grandpa Shooter said:
Why exactly would you compare a gun owner to a sex offender? Is that how you view your fellow gun owners on this board?SamTuckerMTNMAN said:
I fail to see the similarity.
lonegunman
Member
Why worry about RFID tags when 95% of the country is giving their rights away as we speak. Every time you use a debit card instead of cash you assist the government, industry and banking in monitoring your habits and accounts. Every electronic transfer, every grocery store card or shopper bargain card is another step down the path to personal destruction. Not to mention every traffic camera, security camera and random people monitoring camera installed around the country.
Yesterday I stopped at the very small neighborhood Ace Hardware and noticed two shiny new day/night, pan-tilt-zoom cameras. After all they gotta monitor the shoppers needing nails and snow shovels, right?
I carry as little debt as possible, use one credit card and spend cash. It honestly stumps a cashier to see money sometimes. Using money helps in many ways. First and foremost it helps you to understand the real price of a thing and keep you out of debt. I send my bills out by check, it keeps them on my mind and removes the desired effect. Electronic transfers and debits are designed to keep you from noticing the debt load you carry by making paying the minimums painless and seemingly abstract and unreal.
I won't buy a car with crap like "On-Star" or some other big brother system in it. If they require the crap in twenty years, I'll start riding bikes to work. I don't need a 10 dollar an hour loser in Detriot to keep an eye on me and never have.
RFID tags are just another extension of the pathetic lives most Democrats lead. They are a way of saying you are a loser and need some help to pick your clothes out or decide what to eat. You need big brother to tell you what to do and when to do it.
I hate to sound like a Luddite, but this big brother crap sickens me to no end. I fail to see why my personal life, habits and property are anyone's business. My dream is to go in a store, find something not made in China, but it from an idiot that speaks at least passable english and can work the register without two helpers and go home. No ads, shopping suggestions or government monitoring required.
Yesterday I stopped at the very small neighborhood Ace Hardware and noticed two shiny new day/night, pan-tilt-zoom cameras. After all they gotta monitor the shoppers needing nails and snow shovels, right?
I carry as little debt as possible, use one credit card and spend cash. It honestly stumps a cashier to see money sometimes. Using money helps in many ways. First and foremost it helps you to understand the real price of a thing and keep you out of debt. I send my bills out by check, it keeps them on my mind and removes the desired effect. Electronic transfers and debits are designed to keep you from noticing the debt load you carry by making paying the minimums painless and seemingly abstract and unreal.
I won't buy a car with crap like "On-Star" or some other big brother system in it. If they require the crap in twenty years, I'll start riding bikes to work. I don't need a 10 dollar an hour loser in Detriot to keep an eye on me and never have.
RFID tags are just another extension of the pathetic lives most Democrats lead. They are a way of saying you are a loser and need some help to pick your clothes out or decide what to eat. You need big brother to tell you what to do and when to do it.
I hate to sound like a Luddite, but this big brother crap sickens me to no end. I fail to see why my personal life, habits and property are anyone's business. My dream is to go in a store, find something not made in China, but it from an idiot that speaks at least passable english and can work the register without two helpers and go home. No ads, shopping suggestions or government monitoring required.
kb2iaw
Member
They have something like what is discribed here ...at brookhaven national labs, thruout the complex there are posts that detect contrabandand overhead devices that detect radio active materials, both coming in and out .
This is not something new , its kinda like micro chiping a dog or cat to find lost or stolen pets . All that being said there are also reading scanners to check the output of these transmitters ,that tell the frequency being emitted . In some larger items an amplifier can be put in place for greater distances . The draw back is if you know when you are being read ,and the direction from the signal you can change directions .
This is not something new , its kinda like micro chiping a dog or cat to find lost or stolen pets . All that being said there are also reading scanners to check the output of these transmitters ,that tell the frequency being emitted . In some larger items an amplifier can be put in place for greater distances . The draw back is if you know when you are being read ,and the direction from the signal you can change directions .
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