Churches in Minnesota win another round on gun ban

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Richmond

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Churches in Minnesota win another round on gun ban

Court of Appeals: Churches can lawfully ban guns from their premises. Court agrees to exempt religious institutions from the 2005 law.

By ROCHELLE OLSON, Star Tribune
Last update: February 5, 2008 - 1:34 PM

In another victory for churches wanting to ban guns from their premises, the state Court of Appeals issued a 32-page decision Tuesday agreeing with the district court that religious institutions are exempt from the so-called Minnesota Citizens' Personal Protection Act of 2005.

Churches also are not required to post the statutorily proscribed signs that say that the building operator "BANS GUNS ON THESE PREMISES."

"The uncontroverted affidavits before us establish that the sign provision does compel churches that wish to exclude firearms to act in a manner that is inconsistent with their religious beliefs by requiring that they place specific, conspicuous signs at every entrance to the church," said the opinion written by Judge David Minge and signed by Judges Jill Flaskamp Halbrooks and Terri Stoneburner.

The decision means the Edina Community Lutheran Church can continue to legally bar guns with signs saying "Blessed are the peacemakers. Firearms are prohibited in this place of sanctuary." Other churches may choose their own wording.

The decision also means that parking lots, day-care centers and other charitable, educational and nonprofit facilities owned by churches may ban firearms.

Unity Church of St. Paul also sued, arguing that compliance with the sign requirement "would be inconsistent with its mission to provide a safe sanctuary and welcoming place of worship."

Pastor Erik Strand of Edina Community Lutheran Church said he was pleased with the decision, as did Marshall Tanick, the lawyer for Unity Church. "We're especially thankful that the court recognized and protected our congregation's witness to peacemaking and nonviolence in all relationships," Strand said in a written statement.

He noted that all the provisions challenged by the churches - notification, parking lots and tenant spaces - were found to be unconstitutional as applied to religious institutions. David Lillehaug of the Fredrikson & Byron law firm argued the case for the Edina church.

Tanick said the decision was interesting because the Court of Appeals ruled "on the broadest possible grounds," couching the ruling in the state constitution's freedom of conscience clause, which the court deems more expansive than the federal Constitution's First Amendment. "It underscores the importance of freedom of religion in Minnesota," he said.

The opinion cited the explanation of the Edina church's leaders who said entrances to Lutheran churches are reserved for "important religious messages that can be traced to Martin Luther's act of nailing the 95 Theses to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany."

A spokesman for Attorney General Lori Swanson did not immediately return a call so it was unclear whether the state would appeal.

The ruling affirmed a decision from November 2006 when Hennepin County District Court Judge William Howard issued a permanent injunction in favor of the churches. Because of temporary injunctions, the churches were never bound by the law's restrictions. The law initially passed in 2003 and was modified in 2005.

None of the rulings effect most of the law's provisions, including the requirement that sheriffs issue permits to carry handguns to applicants 21 and older who receive prescribed training and pass a background check.

Rochelle Olson • 612-673-1747

http://www.startribune.com/local/15314881.html

Argh. :barf:

The opinion can be found here:

http://www.mncourts.gov/opinions/coa/current/opa070131-0205.pdf

While the church will still need to communicate, they can do so as they choose:

The decision means the Edina Community Lutheran Church can go on legally barring guns with signs saying, "Blessed are the peacemakers. Firearms are prohibited in this place of sanctuary" rather than the language set down by law. Other churches may choose their own wording.

And banning firearms in parking lots is another important step in attacking the Minnesota Citizens Personal Protection Act.

My prediction is that this is likely to go up to the MN Supreme Court.
 
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Look, churches can do whatever they want.

And I can choose not to go. Why in hell WOULD I want to go to church anyway?
 
LOL

If I weren't already, I would be now. :)

Now if they had signs that said, "Blessed are the Peacemakers. Yours welcome here." maybe I'd go.
 
I am glad that the church won. While I am glad my pastor has no objection to concealed carry, it is not up to the government at any level to dictate such to a church.

I also would not let the pastor/church decision not to permit carrying in church be a very large factor in my decision as to whether or not to attend that church.

Regards,
Jerry
 
Hmph.

I don't go to church unless somebody's getting buried or married, and the likelihood that I'll attend either of those events in Minnesota is titanicly remote. I can't agree with their decision, but I can't get too worked up since it doesn't affect me in the least.

I just hope these people aren't overly shocked when their sign doesn't stop the person with a gun with intent to cause harm. Churches are pretty soft targets already.

Hope they never have the opportunity to learn the error of their ways. . .
 
Wait a minute. The article doesn't really say anything. So some churches don't want me to carry. Big whoop.

The real question is now, what happens if I do carry?

Is it still a misdemeanor if I am found to be carrying and refuse to leave when asked? Or did something change and now it is an automatic felony?

The article doesn't actually say what possible punishments there are for carrying in a church. And it does not say that all churches are now off-limits, only those that were before.

Anyone have any answers as to how this actually changes the law besides removing the requirement to post for churches?
 
So churches can put up whatever signs they want to express their wish that people not carry on their premises. Big deal, they could have just put up the sign that the law calls for. I'm more disgusted by the way the story was reported than anything, though considering the paper, I'm not surprised.

what happens if I do carry?
You'll be asked to leave, and if you do not, they'll get the cops to remove you and you'll get a trespassing charge. That's about it.
 
wait,

I am glad that the church won. While I am glad my pastor has no objection to concealed carry, it is not up to the government at any level to dictate such to a church.

the Government DID just dictate to the church, so how are you happy?
 
Look at all the church bashers.

Where?

I said I wouldn't want to go to church anyway. I have plenty of reasons, but I'm not listing them here. Is that "bashing" somehow?

Or do I not have a right to have an opinion about an organization that apparently doesn't want me there anyway?
 
With the myriad of church shootings during the past decade ,this concerted effort by churches in MN makes no sense to me.I see no other state, where this constant pounding away at law abiding church goers basic inalienable rights to self defense, continues unabated
There's some irony here somewhere.I'm just not clever enough to locate it quite yet.These MN church leaders(not all of course)mystify me.What's up with these guys?
Living in Miami and attending Mass, I can gaze among the congregation knowing that a sizeable portion of us are packing.And feel quite comfortable knowing that fact.
No Catholic Priests to my knowledge have ever started any campaign in FL to forbid carry.Or any Protestant or Jewish leaders either.
But of course ,its the Sunshine State.
 
Just one more reason I am glad I am not religious. They are just begging for a psycho shooter to ransack the place with such policies. Plenty of mindless and defenseless meat for the grinder.

I hope their heaven is as good as their leaders tell them it is.
 
ALL this ruling does is allow churches to put up what amount to vanity signs instead of the standard sign prescribed my law to ban guns on the premises. They have gained NO new ability to ban guns beyond what any property/business owner would have. That's their right, as they own/lease the property. As stupid as their decision may be, it's theirs to make. If you don't like it, you can always find another church to attend as there is nothing in MN state law that bans carry in churches.


Seriously, what's with the religion bashing thread drift? I'm not even particularly religious, but I don't see a reason to make comments like "I hope their heaven is as good as their leaders tell them it is". Stick to the high road and the issue at hand.
 

Right here:

Plenty of mindless and defenseless meat for the grinder.

I hope their heaven is as good as their leaders tell them it is.

I myself would find a congregation that did not choose to mean their flock was ripe for picking by wolves. But then, I would also probably not go into a church thread just to post things like "I'm glad I don't go." Just doesn't seem all that High Road, it comes off as pretty derogatory, to tell the truth.

My church allows concealed carry, and I am glad for every one of my members who does so.
 
Hi highorder,

I guess I missed something about the govt dictating to churches. The church said in effect that it did not want CC and the court upheld the authority of the church to do that.
I am glad of that. The court said that the govt could not dictate to the churches that they had to permit CC even though the law evidently prohibited other organizations from prohibiting such.

Regards,
Jerry
 
You're misquoting me. What I said was an expression of laissez-faire philosophy:

Look, churches can do whatever they want.

And I can choose not to go. Why in hell WOULD I want to go to church anyway?

They should have their freedom. And I should have my freedom.

Sorry if you think there's a reason to go to a church, or that it in any way impedes your rights if a church doesn't want you there. In my world, it doesn't.

You know, a lot of people think that organized religion is bunk, and/or that they'd rather have a gun in their pocket than the preacher's promise of a wonderful afterlife. If you think differently, that's your right. But what's the point of whining about it?

What's with Christians taking on the personae of "victims" like the worst sort of lefties do? How "high road" is that?
 
I agree that such statements such as this,
quote Plenty of mindless and defenseless meat for the grinder.
I hope their heaven is as good as their leaders tell them it is.end quote
have no place on the High Road.

Jerry
 
Really?

Would you feel the same way about a similar quote about Islam or Buddhism?

Note that similar things are said here all the time about people who believe that they will be safer without guns, and groups of such people. Why are churches immune to the same criticism?
 
what this is really about

Actually, the original article from the notoriously liberal Star Tribune was a bit more neutral. They pulled it and replaced it with the more biased one I posted.

This isn’t really about churches, whether you like church, do go to church – or hunt, or carry for self defense. I think the title of the article says a lot: “wins another round in gun ban”, which seems to anticipate more rounds ahead. This current tactic has been sponsored by the same people who fought against the MCPPA in the beginning.

This is not about the ability of individual churches to bar firearms – under the law, they have always been able to do that. The 2005 law also allows churches the means to contact carrying permit holders "in any lawful manner", as long as they do it individually. Rather, think of this as the camel's nose under the tent. Also note how they threw in the Church parking lot issue. This is an important point, as MN STAT 624.714, subd. 17 deals with posting for no firearms. Section c specifically provides that “The owner or operator of a private establishment may not prohibit the lawful carry or possession of firearms in a parking facility or parking area”.

This is not about about United States Constitutional issues of separation of church and state, or even the Minnesota Constitutional issue about single subjects. It is about using the courts under that pretext to promote the anti agenda.

Take a look at Testimony of the Most Reverend Richard E. Pates, Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of St. Paul & Minneapolis

http://www.endgunviolence.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={B1D169BE-CAC1-4A2C-ACEF-16AAA6240903}&DE={086A31F7-40FD-47A2-974D-DCF3B32E99EF}

We Bishops joined together to challenge this law after it was first passed two years ago, and with our support and encouragement, a local Catholic parish from each of our six Dioceses across our state, serving as representative parishes for all of our Catholic churches in Minnesota, joined together with congregations from other faiths as plaintiffs in the Ramsey County lawsuit which successfully challenged this law in our Minnesota Courts. We chose to do this because it is our duty and obligation to confront a culture of violence and build a culture of peace.

ALL this ruling does is allow churches to put up what amount to vanity signs instead of the standard sign prescribed my law to ban guns on the premises. They have gained NO new ability to ban guns beyond what any property/business owner would have.

Mannix - I would argue that they have gained a bit more. Take a look at the Courts Syllabus:

SY L L A B U S
1. Provisions of the Minnesota Citizens‘ Personal Protection Act of 2005 that effectively (a) require that before a church may order a person carrying a firearm to leave its premises, the church must (i) post at every entrance signs that conform to specific
requirements, or (ii) personally inform each person that guns are prohibited and demand compliance; (b) preclude churches from prohibiting guns in parking areas on church property; and (c) preclude churches from prohibiting their tenants and the guests of tenants from having guns on church property are unconstitutional under article I, section 16, of the Minnesota Constitution.

Which is why this issue has been pursued in District Court and Court of Appeals.
 
I understand the rules of THR to mean that this is a gun forum. Bashing of any religion, and I consider what I posted to be bashing, is supposed to be prohibited.

Now if the mods will permit I will gladly engage in a discussion with you or anyone else as to the merits of Christianity, and the consequences of refusing the one and only way that God has provided to keep people out of Hell.
I suspect the mods will not permit that, and that is OK, but I resent such statements, and would challenge you to provide your own claim to intelligence or bravery or courage.

I suspect that there are a fair number on this forum who have spent years in the military including combat zones, and who also have education and experiences at least equal to yours.
In time you will learn about whether Heaven is as good as God has said.

Best,
Jerry
 
The thing is, churches need donations, and churches aren't grocery stores. You won't starve to death if you don't go to church. They're not public places or public utilities. It's up to you if you want to go there or not, and nobody actually needs to go if they choose not to.

I don't care for the decision, but the fact that I DON'T think that failing to attend church because you object to its beliefs will land you in Hell for all eternity is an influencing factor in my lack of outrage, to be sure.
 
[They're not public places or public utilities. It's up to you if you want to go there or not, and nobody actually needs to go if they choose not to.]

Correct, and as to whether you believe or not that is up to you and between you and God, but don't ridicule or bash those of us who do not worship CCW or anything or anyone but Jesus Christ.
In fact Jesus said the world would hate us because they first hated Him.

Regards,
Jerry
 
Yet another reason church attendance is declining.

Isn't it a bit strange to see something like this so soon after the recent church shooting? Especially when it ended in the manner it did? If there hadn't been an armed CCW holder in the congregation, it might well have been much worse.
 
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