Another Anti-2A Cop Question

Colorado permit

I would have asked where do you get this permit that they say you need and look into it to see if it is indeed necessary.It just doesen't make sense that cops would lie about non existing laws.What would the point be?

if you are being arrested or ticketed for the offence, contact your lawyer. If you are being hassled, ask if you are free to go. the side of the road is not a courtroom.

I have a copy of the Utah Code regarding concealed carry in my glove compartment, along with copies of the fishing and hunting proclamations. I printed out copies of the state web pages showing that AZ and NV recognize Utah permits for when I travel there.

I had a cop scold me for carrying a round in the the chamber; I just showed him the staute and pointed out to him that it is written in a confusing way, so I could see why it would be easy for him not to notice that permit holders are exempted from that requirement. He was the jumpiest cop I have ever dealt with, but he did end giving me a break on the infraction he pulled me over for.

The best time to resolve a dispute over the law with a policeman is later, after consulting with your lawyer if you have been wronged, or telling it to your buddies in the bar if you have not. Knowing your rights is not the same as being argumentative at the roadside. To statements you know to be wrong, your best response may be, "I see," or "OK," a simple acknowledgement that you hear what the policeman is saying. You need neither agree nor disagree in such a circumstance.

I keep a copy of ARS13-3100 Thru 3110 in all my vehicles. Especially my kid's vehicles. I'll usually just accept a ticket W/O arguing as I enjoy watching the county DA's face when it turns out that I know the statutes better than his deputies.

It's pretty widely accepted that most officers really don't know the law as they should. "Am I free to leave" is an invitation for them to violate the law by making a false arrest, or do something else stupid. Or wise up and let you leave.

Imagine going to court on a bogus ticket or being arraigned for a charge of violating a law that doesn't exist? A judge or magistrate would, hopefully, tear that cop a new one.

A good lawyer might get enough damages to unincorporate a small town.

I have to give thanks to El Tejon, since he takes the time to remind us to not open the door, not pick fights, not do anything but ask "Am I free to go?

To answer your question, Treo: Let him dig as deep of a pit as he likes. If he wants to arrest you or ticket you, don't argue. Use your right to remain silent, especially in that cop car when you're riding back and the camera is on you. Never get chatty in the back of the cruiser.

If the police can't know the law to enforce it how can we know the law to follow it?

I've had CSPD officers tell me...

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Thats where you need to stop ... no sense in listening further. CSPD are a bunch of incompetent boobs. Period (Ironically, Rich Tosches is the journalistic equivalent of the CSPD). Thankfully El Paso County Sheriff's organization is more professional.


Anyway, any time an officer starts insisting that the law says X when it says Y, your best bet is not to try to argue with them (too many of them ... ESPECIALLY CSPD ... are of the opinion that us serfs can't possibly know more about the law than them because "I AM THE LAW!"). If the officer insists on peddling his BS, just ignore him if you can.

Now if he's going to arrest you, you can remind him of US Code-Title 18-Part I-Chapter 13-Sec. 242 but thats likely to cause more problems for you at the side of the road.

Probably best to print out copies of the law (state, county and federal) and keep them in the car with you at all times. Most officers aren't going to be interested in reading at the side of the road and will take your insistence that he follow the actual law as a personal insult so just be polite and don't give him an excuse to taser you.

Just remember the old saying; "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride."

My neighbor lawyer told me this. If your being arrested for something that you positively know is 100% legal just quietly hold out your hands while you think about all the new stuff your going to be able to buy.

I recently had a discussion with my boss about FL car carry laws. She is a reserve deputy.

She was adamant that you couldn't carry a loaded gun in yur vehicle, and that there was a "three step" requirement.

That may have been the way it was 20 years ago when she first became a Reserve, but NOT the way it is now.

Point being that there are so many local, county and state ordinances that no LEO could possibly be 100% up do date with all of them.

That's why I carry a copy of the Florida Statutes that pertain to firearms in my vehicle.

.It just doesen't make sense that cops would lie about non existing laws.

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I've been told to my face by 2 (two) different LEOs that I would be arrested if I followed the new Ill laws on transporting firearms in my vehicle. When asked why they would arrest someone who was following the law their quote was " I'll let the judge sort it out "

What would the point be?

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I have long ago stopped trying to figure out why someone is doing something. I am onlyl concerned with what that person does.

NukemJim

Don't mistake lying for ignorance.

Go ahead and find yourself a written copy of your state code, then try to memorize the several thousand laws printed there and tell me what kind of luck you have.

Should they be spouting off about laws they know nothing about? No. But that's no different than anyone else does at their jobs from what I've seen.

You want proof? Go ahead and call Hewlett Packard's customer service and ask them something computer-related. Hilarity ensues.

Point being that there are so many local, county and state ordinances that no LEO could possibly be 100% up do date with all of them.

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And yet we "civilians" are told that ignorance of any one of the tens of thousands of local, state, and federal laws is no excuse...but apparently it IS a good enough excuse for a malicious, or simply ignorant/uninformed LEO to handcuff, arrest, book and toss us in a cell, depriving us of freedom, even if only for a few hours.Then, when it turns out that they screwed up, little to nothing will be done to compensate you, or discourage this behavior from happening again by punishing anyone who acted out of malice, or even putting much effort into training/correcting an LEO who was simply ignorant so it doesnt happen again.And people wonder why I'm not terribly fond of the way the government treats us serfs, I mean citizens, anymore these days.

And yet we "civilians" are told that ignorance of any one of the tens of thousands of local, state, and federal laws is no excuse...but apparently it IS a good enough excuse for a malicious, or simply ignorant/uninformed LEO to handcuff, arrest, book and toss us in a cell, depriving us of freedom, even if only for a few hours.Then, when it turns out that they screwed up, little to nothing will be done to compensate you, or discourage this behavior from happening again by punishing anyone who acted out of malice, or even putting much effort into training/correcting an LEO who was simply ignorant so it doesnt happen again.And people wonder why I'm not terribly fond of the way the government treats us serfs, I mean citizens, anymore these days.

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True.

Probably best to print out copies of the law (state, county and federal) and keep them in the car with you at all times. Most officers aren't going to be interested in reading at the side of the road and will take your insistence that he follow the actual law as a personal insult so just be polite and don't give him an excuse to taser you.

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The important thing about this is that while it may not stop you from being arrested, it may cause the officer's qualified immunity to be pierced, opening him personally to lawsuit.

If the cop wants to violate the law, I'm more than happy to turn him and his family out in the street for doing so. I don't expect breaks from cops. They shouldn't expect them from me.

If the cop wants to violate the law, I'm more than happy to turn him and his family out in the street for doing so. I don't expect breaks from cops. They shouldn't expect them from me.

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You don't expect breaks from cops? Look up the term "police discretion" then tell me all about how evil cops bust you for every little thing you do. I guarantee you broke the law twenty times today and haven't been hit for any of them.

I promise you, if cops were 1/10 as harsh on you as you are on us, you'd be broke and in prison by now.

You don't expect breaks from cops? Look up the term "police discretion" then tell me all about how evil cops bust you for every little thing you do. I guarantee you broke the law twenty times today and haven't been hit for any of them.

I promise you, if cops were 1/10 as harsh on you as you are on us, you'd be broke and in prison by now.

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You are comparing apples and oranges. One involves lawfully depriving someone of their liberty, the other involves accepting that your liberty by unlawfully taken.

Anyone who tries to take away someone's liberty should ALWAYS be held to a much higher standard.

A higher standard, fine. A perfect standard, an impossible standard? No.

have a print out of "the law"...so you can what...read it to the officer...have him read it...hear him say..." i didn't know that...im sorry, I'm wrong..and your correct..thanks for the legal lesson"

my take...when police stop you..their blood pressure and stress levels go up..if they notice a firearm in the car...legal or not...the last thing i would want to do is start "teaching law"..their stress level has now elevated...at this point I would just be quiet and listen..you don't know what kind of day the office has had or the mood he/she may be in..and you don't want to know..do you?

if you get arrested for the gun..let you lawyer do the talking...unless you want to defend yourself...and show the judge your printout of "the law"...which I strongly advise against

I promise you, if cops were 1/10 as harsh on you as you are on us, you'd be broke and in prison by now.

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I'm from Chicago so I have fairly low expectations of the police.

If they merely obey the law and don't commit any overt crimes or civil torts, I'm satisfied. I realize that if I don't provide for my own physical safety, they certainly won't do it for me.

What you propose isn't even possible absent a real police state and ubiquitous informant networks, and therefore can be dismissed out of hand as errant nonsense.

As I said, I don't expect breaks from the police if I commit crimes, especially serious crimes. In turn, the police cannot expect breaks from me if they commit crimes, especially serious crimes, against me. If I were stopped for selling drugs or committing a burglary or rape, no cop would care if I had a dangerous job or had had a hard day. One would hope (reasonably or otherwise) that he would do his job. Similarly, no cop who violates my rights, especially if he commits a serious crime in the process, can expect me to care how dangerous his job is or what kind of day he's had. I'll do MY job, which is to jealously and zealously guard my rights as a citizen, pitilessly and without mercy.

I don't want to go to jail. That's why I don't commit crimes.

If you don't want your career fed lovingly into the woodchipper, don't violate my rights.

That doesn't seem overly subtle or confusing to me. In fact, it sounds painfully simple.

I don't expect any breaks from the police.

Don't expect any from me.

A higher standard, fine. A perfect standard, an impossible standard? No.

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It is no harder for a police officer to NOT violate my rights than it is for me to NOT sell drugs, commit arson or steal automobiles.

Any police officer who cannot understand this shouldn't BE a police officer. If he DOES violate my rights through his own malice or negligence, I will do everything humanly possible to ensure that he stops being a police officer.

I have no more respect for a police officer who holds our Constitution and laws in contempt than I do for some guy standing on a street corner selling rock. They're BOTH doing everything they can to destroy this country.

I thought we had covered this, but they are really coming out of the woodwork recently.

Remember . . . "AM I FREE TO GO?" Right, now let's use it your hypothetical, we'll use Indiana law because this is what I am most familiar with:

*El Tejon in gas station in Wheatfield, Indiana getting coffee while picking up a rifle from gunsmith, ET wearing pistols openly (1911 and a Kahr P9) in IWB but no cover garment, Wheatfield town marshal approaches our hero*

WTM: "Sir, you understand you have to conceal that pistol according to state law!"

ET: "Good morning, officer. Am I free to go?"

WTM: "Must got to cover up, sir?"

ET: "Am I free to go?"

WTM: "Sir, you must comply with the law."

ET: "If I am not free to go, please call your supervisor to this location at once, otherwise I would like to leave."

WTM: "The statute says you MUST conceal."

ET: "Am I free to go? If not, do you have your mini codebook that the IPAC (Indiana Prosecuting Attorneys Council) gives you? Please look at page X, or give it to me and I'll look it up."

At no time am I excited. I do not engage in the hilljack "no it ain't" methodolgy of argument.

Here's what can happen:

A. You are free to go and you leave.

B. Supervisor arrives and you explain the confusion to him. You ask if he could kindly look up the statute or please call the city attorney or prosecuting attorney (in my state, the cops carry "mini codebooks" so you can look it up for him.

C. You are under arrest.

Rules to follow:

1. relax, cops feed off your energy. You are not doing anything illegal, do not act like it.

2. remember, am I free to go?

3. If he says no, do not debate, do not argue. Ask for his supervisor. Helps to know chapter and verse. Be nice, do not raise your voice or become accusatory.

4. If supervisor option not allowed and you are under arrest, then go along peacefully and we will sort it out later. Remember, you will laugh last.

4. If supervisor option not allowed and you are under arrest, then go along peacefully and we will sort it out later. Remember, you will laugh last.

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5. And always look for justifications for piercing the officer's qualified immunity! Pour encourager les autres! It gives his fellow officers a poignant reminder of why they should walk the straight and narrow!

Thank you El Tejon.