Washington State: I love it, but seek legal info

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yhtomit

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Hi!

I'm a few months from finishing law school (cross fingers) in Pennsylvania, and right now my top choice for life thereafter is Washington State. I've lived there before for a few years, have friends in Seattle and nearby, and miss each day the beauty and atmosphere of the place. If I get some "perfect" job in one of a handful of other states which has some draw (Texas, Tennessee, and a few others), it might not happen -- but boy do I miss it out there.

For you Washingtonians, I'd really appreciate a few words on the realities of various gun-related legalities in Washington; I owned a handgun while I was there, but shot mostly at a range rather north of Seattle, and did not delve deeply into the laws of the state.

Below is a bit of a ramble (but even partial answers will be helpful), because among other things, I'd like to know about ...

- Concealed permits: I understand that it's a shall-issue state (this I knew when I was living there, too -- long history of it, even!), but are there any special hang-ups I should know about? In some states, sherrif's offices are the issuing authority, and vary in their actual speed and enthusiasm. (Packing.org is the canonical source, but it seems to be down at the moment.) I would guess that King County is the worst, because I bet that's the most anti-gun area; on the other hand, when I lived in Seattle, I noticed distinctly less hoplophobia than I see all the time in Philadelphia, and I mean to cast no aspersions.

What peculiarities should I know about? Are there references required as there are in PA? (Glad I already know quite a few people in the state!) How long is the residency requirement, if there is one? Will my PA permit (not reciprocally recognized) be of any help in obtaining a WA one?

- Good (free, uncrowded) legal places to shoot: I know there's a lot of national forest etc. in Washington; are there good places there for hassle-free shooting, as there are in some places? The Eastern part of the state has some desert (at least, I think it's defined as desert despite having no saguaros ;)); are there places one can drive into uninhabited state land, set up targets, and have at?

- The oddball laws re: suppressors. As I have heard it explained, "you can own one, but you can't put it on a gun." That's a better law than "You can't own one," since one may have acquired one legally elsewhere, etc, and ought not need to throw it away. Since I'd love to have a suppressed .22, this leads me to my next question :)

- WA state gun organizations / lobbying orgs: are there any that you consider worth joining, endorsing, or contributing to? I'd love to write some letters at least to work toward getting suppressors legal.

- Rules re: buying guns: I have bought guns in several states, but not while I was living in Washington. Do face-to-face purchases require background checks? How expensive are fees associated with buying guns, and do they vary for handguns v. long-guns? (In PA, there's a $5 fee to the state for a mandatory background check; irksome, but not very expensive.)

- What questions do I not realize I should be asking? Esp. when it comes to the first set of questions above, re: CCW, remember that what seems normal to current holders in a particular state may be pretty foreign to anyone else, so explaining peculiarities as to when / where one may not legally carry, or when / where one must inform someone else (traffic stop in WA -- disclosure required?) are very useful.

- For any lawyers or others with reason to know: Any reason that you can think of to discourage me from seeking attorney jobs in Washington? (And "competition" is not a valid reason -- you have nothing to fear from me anytime soon ;))

Lest this veer off-topic, I intend to compose a separate post that is more general in nature about aspects of Washington life related to guns but not specifically about legal matters (sadly, with guns I know those are sometimes hard to peel apart!), so I'd really appreciate it if replies here could be about strictly legal aspects (permits, purchase requirements, etc.)]

Thanks for any responses! (And I'llnow post a similar, differently cast note in the general discussion area re: other aspects of life there.) (EDIT: recursive crosslink: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4202504#post4202504)

Cheers,

timothy

EDIT:
I've found some good information about concealed permits from the State Lege -- http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.070 -- and for King County (not that I'll necessarily live there, but as above, I suspect it's the worst place to get one, and even there, at a glance it appears straightforward and friendly): http://www.metrokc.gov/sheriff/services/gun_permits/. $55 and change isn't awful, at least not compared to the objectionable requirement itself for a permit in order to exercise a basic right. And Cornered Cat also has a page full of just such information as I'm looking for: http://www.corneredcat.com/Legal/resources.aspx

Answers not found in those places are especially valuable in your responses!
 
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Washington is ruled by the socialists on the coast. Ten years from now the state will be another California. If your intent is to live as a free man in a free state, look to Idaho or Montana.
 
Timothy -
Congratulations on finishing law school. A hard slog, but worth it. My primary advice would be to plan on locking everything up and spending 30 days doing little but attending a bar-prep class, studying, exercising, eating and sleeping. Pass the bar and all else will come in its own time.

I'll answer both posts here to avoid duplication:

information / anecdotes about other aspects of gun ownership / use in the state... I won't rule out at this point any particular part of it
Like most of the country, the more rural the area, the more gun-friendly.

East to West
East = warmer summers, colder winters, and drier all year round.

Where do you shoot? (And esp, in relation to where you live.) Are indoor ranges easy to find near (your city)?
I live 1/2 mi. from a private club with outdoor ranges. We've qualified for a state grant and plan some major upgrades over the next few years including establishing public hours. Indoor would be Wade's in Bellevue or a place down by the Tacoma Dome.

If you're happy with a particular part of the state, please let me know and tell me why
As my profile indicates, I live across the Sound from Seattle. All the resources and pleasures of a city while living 35 minutes and a 2 mile bike ride away fro the downsides in a house off a dirt road. The motivation to move out of the city was schools. Depending upon your family situation (or intentions along those lines) you will find a lot of decisions you make being shaped by what your better-half wants or what would be best for the rug-rats. ;)

- Are there special clubs or groups you think are worth being part of?
Once you figure out where you are going to settle down (legal jobs can be difficult to find when starting out) you'll find a place to shop & shoot.

I'll make it to next year's gathering of THR readers
PM Polishrifleman. See you there.

Do you hunt? I never have, and may never, but I am curious about the hunting culture out there. One day, I might want to go duck-hunting.
Yes, but not in WA. My in-laws are in MT and game is quite a bit thicker on the ground out there (as in family friends calling and saying "Come shoot those $%!& deer off my hay stack!") I've been debating going after an Elk out here, but you want a group for the amount of work that involves. Lots of duck hunting over in Grant County and vacinity as well as parts of the Sound.

Do you have any regrets about living in Washington, wrt gun issues at least?
No. I moved up here from AZ and I still smile on rainy days. :D The best advice I received from a former Washingtonian before moving up here was to give it two winters. After two years you'll know whether the weather will get to you or not. If it does, nothing wrong with moving on. Lots of wet and dark just hit different folks differently.

Are there any stupid anti-gun movements afoot?
Well, it sounds like you've been a more diligent law student than I was, but yeah, they seem to be pretty common across the US these days... :evil:
Overall WA has enough of a "Western" perspective once you get 100+ miles away from Seattle to keep the legislature from going completely off the rails, one way or the other. [To my fellow WA THR-ers - let's not divert this thread into THAT debate...]

If I get some "perfect" job in one of a handful of other states which has some draw (Texas, Tennessee, and a few others), it might not happen -- but boy do I miss it out there.
If you can get a "perfect job" straight out of law school - take it. BFE or not. If there is a job out there that you want and they want you - you will be a much happier person, and a far better lawyer for having followed your passion over a particular geographic preference. With the exception of a few niche practices any good set of skills you develop will serve you wherever you go in the US. If you want to consider mobility it is worth paying attention to which state Bar Assn's have reciprocity (and on what terms).

Concealed permits
You want it - you'll get it. Then take a UT class and you'll have half the states covered for 1 day's effort.

Good (free, uncrowded) legal places to shoot: are there places one can drive into uninhabited state land, set up targets, and have at?
USFS/DNR/BLM places to shoot have been getting closed down due to slob behavior (shot-up TVs, broken glass, etc.). It's hard to argue with a disgusted land-manager if we can't police our own, so to speak. They're out there. There was a thread on them a while block on GlockTalk.

I'd love to write some letters at least to work toward getting suppressors legal.
Have at it. I'm sure Dave Workman, et al. could use some help.

Do face-to-face purchases require background checks?
No. And if you get the WA CWP you can walk out the door of any shop with anything you want (and can afford).

Any reason that you can think of to discourage me from seeking attorney jobs in Washington?
Just be realistic. There are 3 law schools turning out ~ 700+ lawyers a year and there are not that many jobs created each year. The first few years can be rough, but if you want to practice law you will find a way.

Happy trails.
 
rwc:

Thanks very much for the thoughtful reply. I wonder if you know Ted Hume? He's the father of an old friend of mine and an attorney; I think he lives on Bainbridge Island, too.

Location's a big factor for me; I am older than most law students are by several years (took those years working before deciding to brave the application process), and though there's some flexibility, it's not infinite. There might be some lucky spot I'm missing out on in California, say, but that's how it does. (Washington seems to have fairly good reciprocity agreements, at least in the NW.)

Re: too many lawyers chasing too few jobs: To tell the truth, I'm ambivalent about actually practicing law, but have enjoyed law school. I'm sure you weren't any less diligent a law student than me, based on certain laws of logic (cannot be lazier than laziest ;)). There's an outside chance my old job (editing a website) will have me back, and I'd probably take it if so. That said, I have certainly liked the courtroom aspects of law school, through mock trials and clinicals. Because of the clinicals, I was able to do a juvenile trial in New Jersey, and so far a couple of preliminary hearings in PA (with more of those upcoming). Not big league, but real and on the record.

Glad to hear both about FTF sales and the CWP; thanks. PA has generally decent firearms laws, but I find the prohibition on hassle-free FTF sales an annoyance, so I look forward to finding someone's unwanted P-01 and giving it a new home ;)
Data point: the shop / club of which I'm a member charges $50 for the transfer fee required; that kills much of the used-gun bargain joy.

timothy
 
Concur with some of the stuff stated here. Concealed Pistol Licenses are required to carry concealed on foot and carry loaded in car (open or concealed). In fact, open carry is being more widely practiced in the urban areas of Washington State, thanks to OCDO's Washington Forum, NWCDL, and other groups. :)
 
This is my home state and I love it. No, it isn't perfect, but I've lived in Missouri, Virginia, Florida, and California and we've got them all beat, hands down. Like every major city, Seattle has its share of liberals but they don't carry as much influence here as they do in other more notorious places around the country.

One great thing about WA is the State's preemption which forbids any jurisdiction from enacting laws that are stricter than the state's.

I think what 86thecat meant to say was "Come on over, quick! We need more who support the 2A."
 
I'm ambivalent about actually practicing law
I stopped practicing law after ~ 14 years of various forms of litigation and transactional practice. Having a blast.

... enjoyed law school ... liked the courtroom aspects of law school... a juvenile trial ... preliminary hearings in PA...
I don't think you can go wrong getting some trial experience under your belt. I enjoyed it a lot and had fun with it. It will serve you well no matter what you do.

I would recommend that anyone coming out of law school practice law for a few years, if for no other reason than to have a reasonable basis for deciding it's not for them. Like you,, I wasn't dead-set on being a lawyer. I practiced law for as long as I did because I enjoyed it, and I can see doing it again some day. Fair warning - bar memberships end up being a very expensive magazine subscription if you don't practice law, and I've got two of them...

Another factor to consider if you have student loans is that it will be difficult to earn as much as you can practicing law, or have a similar income growth potential (outside the financial services area) - worth considering if you want to shed debt quickly. Having done the opposite, getting out of debt is something I heartily recommend.

On a final note, I decided to move to Seattle for purely personal reasons, figuring that the career would follow. It did, but it took some effort. Anyone moving to an area they don't know and loking for work "cold" in a crowded field will have a bit of an uphill slog ahead of them. After I graduated I took quite a bit of time off and made a lot of road trips, exploring areas I was considering moving to. I heartily recommend the same. You will likely never again have the freedom to do so. I've never regretted that year off.

Cheers,
rwc
 
Timothy, I just left WA state, but it wasn't from lack of love. I have family back east. I'll try not to duplicate anything rwc has already covered.

Concealed permits: are there any special hang-ups I should know about?

I lived in Benton county (practically another world compared to King county). There were no issues or hangups with my permit, and it was provided in the time that they published it would be available.

How long is the residency requirement, if there is one?

Once I got to WA, I was told it was 90 days (I think).

Good (free, uncrowded) legal places to shoot.
http://www.tsca.info :: 1000 yard range, two 100 yard ranges with 200-450 yard gongs, pistol bays, etc. Excellent range, with volunteer ROs and very reasonable range fees ($35-40/yr membership or $5/day).

WA state gun organizations

WAC, Washington Arms Collectors, especially if you're living on the wet side.
 
One thing that might be a problem for you; at least short term.

Since Washington does not honor your PA permit you will have a period where you will be without the ability to CC.

You can get a Non-Resident License, but that can take up to 60 days.
I have seen people get RESIDENT licences in less than a week, but it will take you some time to establish residence.

If you have time, you might want to pick up a FL or UT license before you move. WA will recognize that until you become a resident at which time you will need to have a WA permit.
If you have the time and $$$ another option would be to come out here now and apply for the Non-Resident license (must be done in person), so you have it when you get here.
 
I don't think the Wash CPL allows you to cash-n-carry anything you want from a gun store. It used to, and there have been times when it did again and then did not, but I think currently you still get subjected to the instant check. I always get the 3 day delay, and that really hampers buying guns when you're traveling and stumble into a good store with something you really want at a low price. Same with buying from gun shows.

But F2F sales are background check free.

King County isn't bad at all for getting your CPL since they deal with a huge volume of people. Once you get your first one, you can go to the local community resource center outlets to renew it (so I can do a 5 mile drive to Renton instead of a 15 mile drive to Seattle plus pay for parking).

I've heard some of the smaller suburbs are the bad places to get a CPL. You ?have? to utilize your local law enforcement agency. I live in Kent, but it is actually not in the city limits and is covered by unincorporated king county. Some small town PD's may only take applications or fingerprints on certain days or by appointment.
 
CHL-easy to get. Must be a resident for 90 days or get a non-resident permit first (must be in person).
FTF sales are OK. WAC gun shows are the best place to go because it's members only for guns, meaning you are dealing with a better class of buyers and sellers.
Eastern WA is lovely with lots open spaces.
Seattle weather sucks and you'll never get "used to it."
Gotta go- time for work.
 
All these replies are much appreciated -- excellent information on several fronts.

Aside: revjen45 wrote:

Eastern WA is lovely with lots open spaces.
Seattle weather sucks and you'll never get "used to it."

I'll agree with you that Eastern WA is lovely, but in the couple of years I lived there (2003-2005), I never had to "get used to" the weather -- I loved it, and miss it all the time. Wintertime is contemplative and misty, summertime is bright crystalline joy. I know that not everyone likes the weather there, but I am nuts about it.

timothy
 
not much to add except that the 3 day wait must have been an NICS delay. CPL=no five day wait. cash and carry. getting my CPL in Pierce County was a 30 minute affair. walked in, fill out app, get printed, pick up permit on the way out the door.

free outdoor places to shoot are getting more scarce. 90 day residency requirement can be overcome if you want to open carry for 90 days. no permit required for open carry unless you're in a vehicle.

you can own a suppressor, and even attach it to a weapon, you just can't fire through it. stupid, i know. no machine guns, no SBR's/SBS's and state preemption keeps the likes of king county from getting too big for their britches. they hate that. :)

Washington is a beautiful place. i've lived here all of my 31 years. i love it. avoid the hippie hot spots and you're golden. in what other state can you start out at the Pacific Ocean, travel through the only temperate rain forest in the northern hemisphere, hop a fairy across Orca infested puget sound, go through one of the biggest cities in the nation, cross a mountain range with the only two active volcanoes in the country, stop off and do some snowboarding, drive across some of the best wine country in the country and end up in a desert on one of the biggest rivers in the county that leads to the "Graveyard of the Pacific" all in one day's time? this place has everything.

Bobby
 
Yes, its the NICS check where I have to wait 3 business days. I forgot about the State waiting period. You are exempted from that with a CWP. And the NICS instant check is instant for most people, just not me and I don't know why (I did got a big eyed clerk when I got my first CPL as it turned out some wanted felon used my name as an alias. Perhaps that is the hit NICS keeps getting).
 
As a non-resident I got a CPL through King County in downtown Seattle quickly and efficiently. One downside that will probably keep me from retiring in Washington is that pretty much all NFA weapons, SBRs, machine guns and the like, are illegal. Understand you can own a silencer but not attach it to the gun, rendering it kind of pointless.
 
DrewH wrote:
"As a non-resident I got a CPL through King County in downtown Seattle quickly and efficiently. One downside that will probably keep me from retiring in Washington is that pretty much all NFA weapons, SBRs, machine guns and the like, are illegal. Understand you can own a silencer but not attach it to the gun, rendering it kind of pointless."

Drew:

Well, since I would really like to have a suppressor (for .22 at the very least), but don't yet and have no firm plans to buy one, considering the law there, I do plan to fight this law at least on a small scale. Maybe not in time for your retirement, but I'd work on it ;)

The Federal part of the law is tyrannical (seeing as how it abridges the right to keep and bear arms and all), but the state part is merely absurd. Hearing protection is a matter of health!

And I can't afford any NFA weapons right now (or perhaps ever), but that too is sadly out of step, and if the move back west really comes together, that would be on my list of lobbying points.

timothy
 
.....travel through the only temperate rain forest in the northern hemisphere, hop a fairy across Orca infested puget sound, go through one of the biggest cities in the nation, cross a mountain range....

**chortle.......SNORK.....coffee shoots out nose.....**

Bobarino, my friend, even in a "progressive" city like Seattle we don't just go around "hopping on fairies". No no, our fine gay, lesbian and transgendered friends deserve more respect than that (plus, they're probably armed).

Ferrys, yes. Fairies, NO.
 
You couldn't pay me enough to live in Seattle. I remember when the place was busted up and broke. The city sold its soul to bring business back. But like Oregon, there are many different Washingtons. The Inland Empire is quite different from the Seattle megopolis. Spokane or Yakima are nice places. I also love Hood Canal and the Olympics, though legal jobs are going to be scarce on that side. There are also some nicer areas northwards and in the cascades themselves.

The rain varies from location to location. There are wet spots and rain shadows.

Legal jobs were tough to get in Seattle when I graduated from law school ten years ago. The best bet was away from the core firms in Seattle, which at that point were pulling associates from Harvard and Yale thanks to Fraser. But it's a tough one. Both Washington and Oregon have doubled in population since I was born and show little sign of showing. Most of this is concentrated in the core urban areas, so if you move to such a place expect to be shoved by lots of elbows!

In the end I opted to come to Alaska and never regretted it. Washington is fine for a short visit or stayover at SeaTac, but I wouldn't want to have to work there. WAY too many people.
 
1. Get this book by Dave Workman - It has all the information you will need about WA gun laws. You can get this at most gunshops.
http://www.danddgunleather.com/pages/washington_gun_rights.htm

2. Join the WA-CCW mailing list
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wa-ccw/

3. Email Joe Waldron (jwaldron at halcyon.com) and ask to be subscribed to the WA GOAL Post.

4. The best value in defensive firearms training around:
http://www.firearmsacademy.com/

5. The Open Carry Dot Org Washington State forum
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/

All in all, things are good in Washington. Right now we are in a battle to keep the heavily Democratic state government at bay. Hopefully divided government will soon return.
 
"Ferrys, yes. Fairies, NO."

Snake Eyes:

What about good old "Ferries"? :)

(The ferries really are cool -- I only took one ferry trip, though, to a wedding at Port Townsend. I'd like to visit a lot of the other islands.)

Question: are there any prohibitions on CCW on the ferries? Other public transport conveyances in the Seattle area, or anywhere else in Washington State?

timothy
 
Question: are there any prohibitions on CCW on the ferries?
No, not as long as you hold a valid CPL.
Other public transport conveyances in the Seattle area, or anywhere else in Washington State?
Good question, not being a Seattleite, I can't answer, but I wouldn't be surprised if King Co. Metro Transit forbid it ...
 
Ferries are part of the state highway system, and licensed CCW is perfectly legal.
It is legal to pack a gun on a bus, in Seattle or anywhere else. (State preemption)
 
What about good old "Ferries"?

What is that? A gay boat?

But, no, no exclusions for WSF--they're part of the state highway system and you can do anything on them that you can do on a highway.

I vaguely, and I mean vaguely, recall some prohibitions on busses...but I can't really recall. (Never mind. Mt. Workman beat me to it.)
 
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