Why University Cops & Administrators Don't Want CC on Campus

Correct me if I am wrong, but running drills is a form of conditioning, yes? You practice the desired behavior repeatedly so that if the real thing happens the group behaves instinctively; already moving before they have time to panic. What possible benefit could this 'drill' have? All they did was screw with everyones' heads, making them more vulnerable then they already were. They didn't even gain any honest data (casualty projections, etc.) that might help them improve their deployment.

You practice, repeatedly, when everyone is calm, THEN run the DISCLOSED real time drill. Surprise under those circumstances is unconscionable. That peace officer was lucky; Darwin must have been busy.

It was a red plastic training pistol, you'd have a hard time justifying that homicide anywhere in this country.

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No, actually you wouldn't. If we accepted this as an accurate statement...

the man threatened to kill the student who had the lowest grade point average.

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and that man was holding what appeared to be a weapon, you've fulfilled MMO (Means, Motive, Opportunity) and action is legally justifiable. If it later turned out to be a fake rubber gun, or a toy, or a bb pistol, or an umbrella... all that means is that the person acting in self defense was unable to accurately identify the weapon. It does not change the "fear for life and health" at all.


Seriously, imagine someone holding a gun (or simulator) in the standard fashion. That means the grip area and trigger are probably covered up by the hand or hands. Now visualizing that and given only a short time to assess the situation could you pick "gun" or "simulation" from the following?









See if you aren't sure that the "bad guy" has a weapon or not, you simply must default to the assumption that they do.

And in case anyone cares...

Gun
Sim
Sim, Gun
Toy (airsoft)
Gun
Sim
Gun

I also don't get why he played the part of the crazy gunman in the room. If this was a test of the responders' ability to locate and subdue an active shooter then it would have been just as effective for him to walk into the room, introduce himself as a security officer, and state that he was playing the part of a gunman in a drill. Then everybody could sit around while the cops and campus security play hide-and-seek.

Also, it took fifteen minutes to find him when they knew what building to look in and when to start looking? That doesn't really inspire confidence in their response time in a real emergency.

All it would take is one person with the warrior ethos, and maybe a couple of brave men who would follow his (her?) example and that room would have been a bloodbath -- the stupid cop's blood. They wouldn't need any weapons.

I don't know NC's laws on concealled weapons, but if there were any off-duty cops in the class they could probably be legally armed. I'll bet nobody planning this fiasco even thought about that.

(it's amazing how little news coverage there is today about this)

It was the story in the right side column of the front page in the News and Observer today.

All it would take is one person with the warrior ethos, and maybe a couple of brave men who would follow his (her?) example and that room would have been a bloodbath -- the stupid cop's blood. They wouldn't need any weapons.

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the classroom is FULL of weapons waiting to be pressed into service. books, chairs, feet, fists, ipods, you get the picture. I'm glad I wasn't there. I'd likely be in trouble for assaulting the "good guy"...

In a telephone interview Tuesday, Wang said the man came to the door and said he wanted to talk. "Suddenly the man pointed the gun at me," he said, adding that he didn't have time to consider whether the gun was real.

The seven students were lined up against the wall, and the intruder threatened to kill the one with the lowest grade point average. Wang said the man told them that he had been kicked out of school and that he needed a lung transplant.

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Holy crap. After reading that, (shiver). I would have drawn on the guy and shot him to the ground post haste. I would be so F****D right now if I were in that classroom.

once again we have proved that rather than do anything to protect one's self, college students tend to just wait to die.

once again we have proved that rather than do anything to protect one's self, college students tend to just wait to die.

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Talk about sweeping generalizations. At best we have proven that this particular class did not have anyone step up. Not being there I have no idea if there was an opening to do anything or not.

I do know that the PD is very lucky that this did not go another way. As a college student myself I could really see this going another way and it would not have been pretty.

Then again the way the articles are written it is possible that some of the students had an idea of what was going on. (or possibly they saw the red gun). Remember this is the media and we are only hearing party of the story.

Vote it up at Reddit:

http://reddit.com/info/6a6a4/comments/

double

If I was in that class and heard about it ahead of time, I'd pack my own fake red gun. Then, when the cop came in I'd draw. Since it would be moving so fast and he wouldn't have time to identify it as a fake red gun (cf. first-hand accounts from everyone in the room above), he'd drop his silly fake one, and I'd have him subdued. What would his buddies think when they showed up 13 minutes later to find him face down on the floor, legs crossed, head sideways, and me covering him from 10 feet away?

Folks, this was an opportunity!

-Jephthai-

What would his buddies think when they showed up 13 minutes later to find him face down on the floor, legs crossed, head sideways, and me covering him from 10 feet away?

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They'd probably shoot you with their real guns.

Not something I normally advocate...

However, thare are SO MANY in this case that need a severe beatdown....

What I find disturbing is this; even if you know that CCW is not allowed on campus (despite what you believe about it), and even if you're prepared to believe that anyone CCWing in violation of that rule deserves prison or death (I don't) and/or even if you're willing to suspend disbelief and think that no one packs a gun anyway, in every college across this nation there are police officers off duty taking college classes.

If one of them had been in there, the result probably would have been "Everyone down on the fl-"*BOOM*

The gun was red? OK. Can I tell from where I sit in row three that it is red and fake? The point of red guns is to make it obvious in a sterile environment that it is a fake gun. A random college classroom is not a sterile environment. Who is to say that he could not have painted his gun red to gain the advantage of a moment's hesitation? I have seen real guns pulled off of gang bangers with a painted orange stripe on the nose. This is no different.

IDIOCY.

Mike

just when i can't believe people can't get stupider, ya'll go and prove me wrong....
*** were these people thinking? oh, yeah, thats right, they wern't thinking!

A simple favor to ask, please.....

When you post articles related to this story, please post the links AND the article. I'm trying to get this story brought up on some MAJOR blogs for national attention. Thanks!

RKBABob wrote,

Ok, can anyone tell me why the officer stayed in character after seeing that the professor and students were visibly disturbed (which I can only assume they were). If the drill was to "test the system," what was the purpose of issuing death threats to the individual students?

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Come on guys. Let's all put on our "real world" caps. In the real world, there are plenty of sick people.

I'll say it in the PG-13 version: The officer here was getting himself off on the instant power high at the expense of our children's safety.

I sent an email to the chief of campus PD at our town's university and told him about it:

He agreed that they wouldn't try any such stupid thing here:

RE: Sir, I would like to call your attention to an incident involving campus police at Elizabeth State University that I pray does not happen here.

Chief,

Good morning.

Basically, campus police at Elizabeth State were running an exercise
involving a lone shooter running into a classroom and holding a gun at
the professor's head, threatening to kill students and telling them to
line up against the wall.

Only no one told the students it was a drill.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/968432.html

The policy of (our university) is that concealed weapons are not forbidden on campus
(...and rightly so. I know that a few women students got permits and
carry concealed pistols after the serial rapist thing a few years back).

I am sure you can see the possibly horrible consequences if a drill like
this one were run (here) and the students were not notified.

Thank you for your time, and keep up the good work.

You are correct and we will.

Thank you.

Chief xxxxx

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It was a red plastic training pistol, you'd have a hard time justifying that homicide anywhere in this country.

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As mentioned in other posts here, brightly painted REAL guns have been featured in news stories recently.

What should have happened was them walking into class and saying, this is a drill, we're testing the response force, so play along, this gun is a fake.

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That's could be a very effective tactic - for the NEXT homicidal maniac school shooter.

I'm just dumb-founded such a thing could occur in this way. We need to figure out how to make certain that the schools in our own communities don't even think about trying anything like this. All they proved was that it is very easy for anyone to invade a class room and do whatever the hell they want to without opposition - and that any response from LE will be too late.

Now visualizing that and given only a short time to assess the situation could you pick "gun" or "simulation" from the following?

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Great post ZeSpectre! Nobody could be expected to tell the difference between real and fake in a real-world scenario. We have all heard of tragic shootings by LEO mistaking toys or cell phones or other objects for a firearm. They must make a life-or-death decision in a split-second - and sometimes they come up wrong. I think most of us don't fault them in that situation if they truly believed they were being drawn on. In the simulated class-room attack, the students and teacher had every reason to believe they were at risk of dying. Any counter- response would have been fully justifiable.

ZeSpectre,

Great analysis (which I agree with). Just wanted to ask the requisite "why didn't they shoot the gun out of his hand" type question.

I currently work for a campus PD and believe me this would not fly where I work. Were I to be the guy to charge into a room on my campus, I'd probably be shot before I got more than two words out of my mouth. Though it is illegal to carry in schools here.... well, it's the south... and I'm sure there are some on campus who do carry regardless. I believe I'd have to decline this duty were the order given for me to participate in this type of drill.

JLbraun I'm reading the reddit, some of them are going ballistic over your posts, you're doing well though keep it up. i'll sign up and post at least a couple responses to help you out though.

That was a pretty dumb stunt, but it certainly shows how effective e-mail and text messaging alerts work in a "real" situation.

They were notified days before the event, and even told where it would happen, and everyone was still surprised and unprepared.

I'm glad they did it! It shows that all the lock downs, sirens, e-mail and text alert, and 911 calls are useless when you need force in seconds.

The only thing that possibly could have helped was armed and efficient students and faculty - and they proved it!

Reckless idiots.