Is Open Carry Practical

BlazingAngel01 said:

Mainsail I'm with you

Does a preemption Out way Ordinance such as:

The state allows for open carry but the city does not.

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In Michigan, the answer is yes. Go read the state preemption law. And just for JohnKSa's sake, understand that there are inherent risks involved.

BlackBear,

Good post and good points. I see where you are coming from, I just don't agree. I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm not saying you are either. I really don't know for sure, but I lean towards open carry being negative for the cause of ccw. Maybe some open carriers aren't interested in legalizing ccw on a shall issue basis in all states. Maybe most feel as you do, that it helps the ccw cause. I just see it as impractical and antithetical to allaying the fears of gun grabbers. Maybe I'm just speaking from the wrong background. I'll admit that. But I'm not sure if it's true. Here's my background. I've lived in large cities most of my life, I'll probably continue to do so, and I want the right to ccw in those places. I will concede open carry is probably much more practical and seen as less threatening in more rural areas. As I stated before, I think it's fine on trails. But open carrying in a place like San Jose or Miami would, in my view, be horribly negative overall for the cause of advancing CCW (luckily in Miami, we've won that cause--unfortunately in San Jose and many counties in CA, the struggle to move from may issue to shall issue statewide continues).

To speak to the notion that if we don't practice open carry, they'll make laws to take it away--I think it's the opposite--though I readily admit it forms a frustrating catch-22. I think the reason open carry hasn't been outlawed more than it has (and of course it is outlawed in many places) is precisely because it hasn't been a visible issue that has attracted lawmakers to interdict it.

I've hardly had any negative reactions when I've open carried. So to me, it is practical as you don't have to worry about it being covered, and you can open carry larger guns (a long slide glock for instance). I've open carried around Northern VA quite a few times with that or my 1911, sometimes get questions on what gun it is, but never anything negative.

I don't carry down here in NC though.

JohnKSa said:

Likewise I didn't intend any of my comments to be taken to mean that OC supporters and practicioners aren't doing their part. While I don't necessarily agree that the act of carrying openly is always beneficial to the cause of gun rights, it certainly CAN be.

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Then you and I are on the exact same page. I personally feel that our cause is furthered by the occasional OC, but I am by no means suggesting that everyone should, or that those who don't are somehow less a supporter of 2A rights. (At least, I desperately hope I didn't come across that way - that's certainly not how I intended it). I think I got a little worked up at your posts because I thought you were insinuating that every person who was advocating (or even just rationalizing) OC was an OC "pusher." Now that I understand that's not the case, I completely agree with you.

cowssurf, you're probably right. It's probably a matter of experiences and backgrounds. I've lived my whole life in Maine, never in a town of more than about 20,000 people. OC is not and never has been an issue, and I honestly feel blessed that gun rights are as good as they get up here. The only complaint I have about gun rights at all is the fact that even if you have a CCW, you have to unload your long guns in the car. I don't understand it.

But anyway, I can certainly see where OCing freaks people out. I know it happens,and it's sad...for both the people involved, and the status of our rights. And I think ultimately we're both right. I think we'll find that in some places, with some people a gun on the hip will make another person think "OK, maybe every person with a gun isn't out to shoot up the place." And in other places, with other people, a gun on the hip will have someone dialing for 911 faster than I could draw. The real problem is that I don't see any other way to get our rights back. You might be right - if no one OCs, then they may not make any laws about it, because no one complains. But don't you see what's happened? Even though it may still be legal, we don't have our rights anymore. We may have our rights in the justice system, but the court of public opinion has outlawed OC anyway. And I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm right, but it's a problem, that's for sure. And one I don't know how to fix.

Also, to treo, I'm sorry for being involved in the discussion that has diverted the thread for so long. In my defense, though, it's been one of the most rational and civil OC vs. CC discussions I've ever seen. The fact that it's made it to page 8 alone attests to that. I think it all goes to prove that in the end there is no easy answer. I still stand by my opinion (for all that's worth) that it is certainly practical.

JohnKSa said:

My point is that interracial dating, while legal isn't practical and that it draws far more negative attention than its deterrent value is worth. My personal experience is that I've never had a positive response from others when I practiced interracial dating anywhere but in the backcountry

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This is the PERFECT way to demonstrate exactly what I've been saying.

Do I think interracial dating should be legal? YES, OF COURSE I DO!
Would I date someone not of my race? You bet! If there were someone I liked who wasn't my race, I wouldn't hesitate for a minute.

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Some people do it for practical reasons, and they have been listed. It’s hard to accept them when you start out with an attitude that follows.

JohnKSa said:

These discussions always start out weighing the relative practical/tactical merits of OC vs CC but when the logic starts to favor CC over OC (as it must in any environment where OC is not ubiquitous) …

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It sounds like your saying that, “anyone who believes the merits of OC outweigh those of CC (in their individual circumstance, and where not ubiquitous) are only doing so out of a lack of logic, because there is no way that the merits of OC could outweigh those of CC in such cases.” I think that most people on both sides would agree, but just disagree as to what those terms are.

JohnKSa said:

But...

Would I do it to make a point?
Would I do it to fight for freedom?
Would I do it to prove how much I care about racial equality?
Would I do it to further the cause of racial equality and integration?

NO!

I would do it because it makes sense to date someone you like.

Would I go around advocating that other people date interracially to further the cause?
Would I imply that those who dated members of their own race were closet racists?

NO!

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I’ve read many threads on OC, and haven’t notice that type of attitude. I have seen a lot of criticism directed toward OC’ers, but not the other way around. Not saying it doesn’t happen since there are bad apples in every bunch. But it certainly isn’t the norm.

JohnKSa said:

…

I would defend their RIGHT to do as I do, but I would certainly not look down on them for making different choices. After all, there are many things that can reasonably be expected to affect a person's choice of a mate, it would be SUPREME egotism for me to assume that I know why they act as they do. Furthermore, the idea that someone should be feel coerced into dating interacially simply to further the fight for freedom is almost as abhorrent as the idea that someone should be prohibited from interacial dating.

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I‘ve rarely seen OC‘ers pushing (as you say) their practice on others.

JohnKSa said:

Theres a significant undercurrent in this thread (and in many if not most OC threads I've seen) of people promoting the idea that those who don't all go out and OC or campaign vigorously to promote OC are anti-second. That those who choose to CC instead of OC are hurting the gun rights cause either intentionally or out of ignorance.

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I disagree. There seems to be a theme on most of these threads that CC‘ers come out and say that OC hurts the cause. This thread was started as saying that OC isn’t practical. Problem is that for some ,it is.

JohnKSa said:

...That those who point out that CC has advantages over OC are no better than Sarah Brady.

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Actually, that’s not what has been commonly said. I will say that people who criticize OC’ers as hurting the cause are, but will qualify that with, “it always depends on the situation”. You may not see this because you do support OC (as you claim), but there have been some criticizing OC’er for OC’ing anywhere but the sticks, when it’s legal to do so. People are standing up for their rights, and being disparaged for it because those critics fear the OC’ers are jeopardizing their CC rights.

Some have said that CC doesn‘t have an advantage for them, but it‘s not a generalization.

JohnKSa said:

In short, I'm sick and tired of the accusations and the "holier than thou" approach taken by the OC "pushers". And I don't mean that everyone who's posted on this thread in favor of OC is an OC "pusher", it's clear who is and who isn't.

...it ain't a case of you're either with us or against us.

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Oh no? How would you interpret this statement?

I still say some of these arguments are just alternate verses for a song by the brady bunch.

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Unfortunately, that‘s true. Some of the arguments used against OC are straight from the Brady book.

JohnKSa said:

...or this one?

I would keep my cross or star of David hidden, or not wear my head scarf. It might make someone mad or scared and they might pass a law to restrict my religious rights. Someone might even hurt me. It's better to keep my religion to myself.

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Right, those who don't OC are doing so because they're ashamed of their status as gun owners and won't openly support the constitution.

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If that’s how you feel, then I can understand why you are so passionate about this issue. Your wayyy reading into things if that’s what you took out of that quote. I don’t like saying this, but it isn’t even honest to suggest that the above quote even comes close to your interpretation of it.

JohnKSa said:

You don't think that's polarizing? What about...

There was a time that you couldn't date whoever you wanted because it might offend someone. Sure, it was LEGAL, but who'd take the risk? You'd be beaten and the police would sure as hell be on your rear end.

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So those who practice OC are campaigning for freedom! Those who aren't, well...we all know what they are...

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Again. If that’s how you feel, then I can understand why you are so passionate about this issue. Your wayyy reading into things if that’s what you took out of that quote. I don’t like saying this, but it isn’t even honest to suggest that the above quote even comes close to your interpretation of it. Sure, people who OC may well be campaigning for freedom (as you put it), but that doesn't mean anything beyond that.

JohnKSa said:

So basically all the .gov needs to do is trouble us out of our rights?

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In other words, those who don't OC because they can't afford police harassment, are cowards. Noooo... That's not gonna give anyone the idea that this is a black or white issue!

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Again. If that’s how you feel, then I can understand why you are so passionate about this issue. Your wayyy reading into things if that’s what you took out of that quote. I don’t like saying this, but it isn’t even honest to suggest that the above quote even comes close to your interpretation of it.

JohnKSa said:

What is wrong is the hatred you seem to have for people who you cannot coerce into your way of thinking.

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My "way of thinking" is that OC should be legal everywhere as I posted on my first entry to this thread. I guess that bothers you?

Hatred is a strong word, but I'm pretty sick of seeing people voice legitimate concerns about OC only to be dismissed as cowardly, compared to closet racists, accused of being anti-gun, etc.

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Once again. I think your twisting things around. However, if that’s what you want to do, then I respect your right to do so.

Most of the people advocating OC have been of the attitude of, “Leave us alone. We have our reasons for doing it. We aren’t criticizing you for your choices, don’t criticize us for ours.” You seem to be taking that stance as a threat or insult to your personal decisions. It doesn't have to be that way.

Okay, fine.

JohnKSa said:

...or this one?

I would keep my cross or star of David hidden, or not wear my head scarf. It might make someone mad or scared and they might pass a law to restrict my religious rights. Someone might even hurt me. It's better to keep my religion to myself.

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Right, those who don't OC are doing so because they're ashamed of their status as gun owners and won't openly support the constitution.

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Wrong, this is a response to being told to not OC for the reason that , “it scares people”, or maybe even offend them. It has nothing to do with your status as a gun owner, or your support of the constitution.

JohnKSa said:

There was a time that you couldn't date whoever you wanted because it might offend someone. Sure, it was LEGAL, but who'd take the risk? You'd be beaten and the police would sure as hell be on your rear end.

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So those who practice OC are campaigning for freedom! Those who aren't, well...we all know what they are...

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This is not a criticism of people who choose not to OC. It is a reference to people exercising their rights, and being persecuted for it.

JohnKSa said:

So basically all the .gov needs to do is trouble us out of our rights?

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In other words, those who don't OC because they can't afford police harassment, are cowards. Noooo... That's not gonna give anyone the idea that this is a black or white issue!

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If this quote makes you feel cowardly, then it is doing so because you do feel cowardly, and has nothing to do with the quote. Not everyone is called to walk that path, and not being called doesn’t make them a coward. This is like suggesting that someone who joins every RKBA group except the NRA is not standing up for their rights, just because they didn’t join the NRA.

Do I really need to explain such things to you? When you draw conclusions like this it is hard to believe veracity of your accusations. Suggesting that , “someone who stands up for rights in their own way, is criticizing all who don’t follow suite by doing so” just isn’t rational.

Just about every OC thread I’ve read has been full of comments (from pro OC’ers) like, “OC isn’t for everyone”, or “if you don’t want to do it, then don’t”.

You can choose to take offense at just about anything if you want to. In the end, it is still your personal choice.

Like I said,"you can choose to take offense". Or, you can just take it any way you want to.

Open carried in VERY liberal Eugene,OR in a heavy "soccer mom" sububia neighborhood, once again today.Wore my 1911 open wile I went to the gas station to mail a package.Stood there for about 15 mnutes in line and for the transaction, in full view of 3 employees and about 10 customers, and not only did nothing happen, no one even seemed to notice.No cops, no screams no panic, no one pre-emptively shot me, and no one tried to snatch my gun.It was a non-event entirely.

Open carry

I've been carrying concealed lately, but have open carried. There are advantages and disadvantages to open and concealed carry. Do whatever floats your boat. We all agree on self-defense, right ?

I do not wish for anyone else to carry openly, unless they feel it's a good idea. It's a specialized tactic. Not for use in all states or places, or by all people, or at all times. If done for political purposes, not everyone needs, wants or can afford to play their politics on that front.

Nobody who conceals should be looked down upon.

Not sure if I can say it plainer that that. I've been unhappy all week that I've gotten on JohnKSa's bad side. Wish it weren't so.

PS: I hold an Arizona CCW, and I use it on occasion.

Sorry guys/gals

I guess I wasn't clear in post 154.

I am all for open carry, just like I didn't mind holding hands with my black girlfriend, even though many black men found it extremely offensive.

When I see a black man holdings hands with a white gal
it doesn't make any difference to me, I thought I was making that clear, that those who find open carry "offensive " I say...tough.... don't look, it is my right to marry a woman from another race or culture even though some may find offense and it is my right to keep and bear arms.

I open carried in AZ and loved it, I've done it a few times here but am waiting till I can afford lawyers before I push the matter.

This video sums it up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b6UJsfTAnA

Yes.

JohnKSa,

I still think you’ve taken some of my comments (as well as others) out of context. It happens. I’ve not criticized CC’ers for not OC’ing, and still believe the majority of OC’ers feel the same. I think that if someone chooses one over the other, then that is their choice to make, and I’ll respect their choice. I don’t agree with anyone from either side who would push their agenda onto the other. If people want to CC, then I think one should support them or, if one is not supportive, then, don’t criticize them just because they don’t practice the same. This of course is providing each stays within the confines of the law. I also don’t care much for what I would consider the extremists on either side. Like every other aspect of life, there is good and bad alike, but all the bickering back and forth does no good for all parties concerned IMHO. In essence, MHO of both CC and OC is, “If you want to do it, and it’s legal, then go for it. I’m not going to criticize, or second guess your decision. Just know what you are getting into before you make that decision. Other than that, it’s your personal choice.”. BTW, as in my previous post, I’m generalizing here. It isn’t directed at any one individual.

Personally, I wish people would just let others make their own decisions and leave it at that. I think too many people in this country are too intent on controlling their neighbors behavior, and I fear that that is one of the greatest threats to liberty.


I hope you take that into consideration when you read my posts. While I still stand by what I said, I never suggested that you (or anyone) was a coward. If that’s how you understood it to be, then I’ll now say that it certainly wasn’t what I intended.

This video sums it up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b6UJsfTAnA

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Parts of that were kind of funny, but I sure hope he wasn't serious in all his comments, as I think some of them are perfect examples of what I think are "polarizing".

OC

I believe open carry would attract negative attention and 911 calls in suburban New England. There seem to be downsides to exercising OC; many folks don't know that it's legal, so as soon as they see a person carrying openly, it's a phone call to 911. Local LEOs are obliged to respond. This consumes local LEO time and resources.

I have not seen anyone carrying openly in the suburban areas. Out in the woods, yes.

This video sums it up?

not really, he is a good guy...but...
He thinks the COTUS gives him the right to KABA.
Our rights are given by our Creator, BOR enumerates them.

I live in a very rural, gun friendly county in North East Missouri, on a farm. I always open carry on the farm. I have my CCW. If I have to go to town on a errand I don't bother to conceal. Many folks open carry here. I have had comments from one grandmother at a fish fry in the city park. She said she would call her grandson a deputy. Please do I told her, I know them all as just about every one has sold be a purchase permit. She didn't. My wife is a city girl, her family never had guns. She has learned to shoot to protect our livestock, and has. She saw a guy open carry in the grocery store. She said before she knew me and knew more about guns she would have freaked. But it didn't really bother her now. I do recall one afternoon when I went to the local camp ground to get some ice, there was van no doubt from the big city full of grownups and kids. I had my Beretta 92FS in what I call a bar-b-que leather holster, a real fancy one with a double mag carrier on the other side of the buckle. I walked passed them to get to the ice machine, when I turned around they were pressed up against the window looking at me like they were in drive through zoo. Probably the first time they had seen a gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b6UJsfTAnA

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That guy's is a frickin' moron. Someone that ignorant shouldn't even be allowed to own a gun. Idiots like that are the exactly what the gun-grabbers think of all of us.